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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

blubak 9th Jan 2021 21:43


Originally Posted by Global Aviator (Post 10964334)
All of the QF repatriation flights required a negative Covid test prior to departing. This doesn’t stop
cases popping up in Q as we know. That is what Q is being used for.

6 new cases from quarantine in victorian numbers this morning although they did say yesterday to expect this due to 11th day tests etc.
Although its a small number it shows that overseas arrivals are still bringing it into the country & for now at least (& who knows how long) the arrival numbers are going to have to be strictly controlled & placed in quarantine.
Its not good for those waiting to come back but unfortunately with what we are dealing with nothing can or will change if we want our current covid normal freedoms to continue.

Ragnor 9th Jan 2021 22:03


Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was (Post 10963961)
It would be a hard sell to expect them to pay for 14 days of quarantine when they just proved to you they don't have the disease.

.

Not hard at all. They want to come home or not those are the rules I am very happy they have halved the inbound and tightened quarantine process. Its about time I say.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was 10th Jan 2021 00:38

Tightening the quarantine process is the only worthwhile improvement, because that's where the system is failing, not the actual arriving and quarantining. It's not the returning passengers fault the various State Governments can't manage a quarantine process


Very few if any details are released other than ground zero cases in a spread/cluster only numbers
There's a reason for that. Who will look bad?

compressor stall 10th Jan 2021 01:20


Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was (Post 10963961)
So what happens to the people who show a negative test prior to departure? Do they get released into the wild on arrival as if it was a Green flight? It would be a hard sell to expect them to pay for 14 days of quarantine when they just proved to you they don't have the disease..

It’s not hard at all with the right information. What the great unwashed - and apparently some of the washed it seems - don’t realise is that all a PCR says is that you don’t have the active virus NOW. It may be incubating from a previous exposure and you may still develop it.

TurningTheSpanners 10th Jan 2021 01:23


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10962245)
... it’s good to see they are stepping up the rollout of the only thing that’ll bring this pandemic and the disruption to our industry under control.

Now if they aimed to have enough immunised prior to winter to allow lifting of restrictions that would be ideal.
EDIT

And upon further reading they’re aiming for 4 million Australians immunised by end of March. So perhaps 15 million by start of winter? Maybe enough for herd immunity.

Everyone seems to be focusing on the number of people who will be vaccinated "straight away".

As I read the tea leaves the governments plan is to vaccinate the "vulnerable" and "essential workers" first.

So the elderly in the community and the Nanas in the nursing homes and the let's be honest, the low-paid carers for the elderly, as well as the nurses and doctors get the first say million or so, or more or less, vaccinations.

How many of those were actually going to be overseas travelers anyhow?

I suggest that the first large percentage of vaccinations will do nothing to very little to stimulate overseas travel?

TurningTheSpanners

brokenagain 10th Jan 2021 02:16


So the elderly in the community and the Nanas in the nursing homes and the let's be honest, the low-paid carers for the elderly, as well as the nurses and doctors get the first say million or so, or more or less, vaccinations.
By vaccinating the elderly and others who make up the majority of people who end up seriously ill and in hospital, you’re reducing the chances of the health system from being overwhelmed. Once that occurs, life can go start to go back to some sort of ‘new normal’. COVID-19 will never be erradicatdd, and will end up being just another flu strain in circulation. The vaccine won’t end COVID, but hopefully it will end the pandemic.

TurningTheSpanners 10th Jan 2021 02:48


Originally Posted by brokenagain (Post 10964465)
By vaccinating the elderly and others who make up the majority of people who end up seriously ill and in hospital, you’re reducing the chances of the health system from being overwhelmed..

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my previous post.

What I'm trying to say is that say, pick a number, any number, when the first one million people are vaccinated in Australia that doesn't mean that there will be one million people queuing up at the check-in counters.

A lot (vast majority?) of the first vaccinated wouldn't have flown overseas anyhow so again, making stuff up, let's say it takes a few months to get that first million vaccines distributed the vast majority of potential fliers won't start getting their jabs until, say, maybe June.

TurningTheSpanners

JustinHeywood 10th Jan 2021 03:15


Originally Posted by TurningTheSpanners (Post 10964475)
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my previous post.

What I'm trying to say is that say, pick a number, any number, when the first one million people are vaccinated in Australia that doesn't mean that there will be one million people queuing up at the check-in counters.

A lot (vast majority?) of the first vaccinated wouldn't have flown overseas anyhow so again, making stuff up, let's say it takes a few months to get that first million vaccines distributed the vast majority of potential fliers won't start getting their jabs until, say, maybe June.

TurningTheSpanners

I'm not sure of your point here, spanner. Surely the obvious thing is to vaccinate the most at risk first, no?
Are you proposing some other plan?

TurningTheSpanners 10th Jan 2021 03:34


Originally Posted by JustinHeywood (Post 10964482)
I'm not sure of your point here, spanner. Surely the obvious thing is to vaccinate the most at risk first, no?
Are you proposing some other plan?

No, Simply pointing out that WHEN VACCINATIONS FIRST START the "most at risk" and "front-line workers" will RIGHTLY SO be getting the jab first.

So, when one million people have been vaccinated that DOES NOT MEAN one million people will turn up at the check-in counters because they weren't going to fly anyhow.

I'm saying that just because one million people (or whatever number it is) have been vaccinated by July 1 there won't be the DEMAND for one million seats on July 1.

TurningTheSpanners.



rattman 10th Jan 2021 03:56


Originally Posted by JustinHeywood (Post 10964482)
I'm not sure of your point here, spanner. Surely the obvious thing is to vaccinate the most at risk first, no?
Are you proposing some other plan?

Yep does not get the point, travel has a grand total of ZERO relevence to the vacination schedule. Because prisoners and guards are one of the first groups to get it and the majority of them will not travel. Prison (guards and inmates) are a very at risk / difficult group if covid gets in, Elderly and their carers and front line medical services are all in the first group.

Foxxster 10th Jan 2021 04:43


Originally Posted by compressor stall (Post 10963632)
you’ve obviously not travelled widely. Plenty of locations demand a particular vaccination certificate. If you arrive without it you get jabbed and detained for 10 days.

In fact the same vaccination is also an entry requirement for Australia if you’ve been in those parts of the world in the past 6 days. You even tick the box on the yellow pax arrival card. But as a AU citizen you won’t get stopped from entering AU.


well only about 45 countries. Never ever asked for any proof of vaccines. I am sure as you say there are such countries.

however my point remains.

Things will be very different now. You will not be able to travel to ANY country, or indeed as per Qantas and other airlines will follow suit, to even get on the aircraft without your COVID passport.

which combined with Ticketmaster working on making you prove you have the vaccine before you buy tickets to any event and employers making noises about requiring it and so on, it makes the vaccine de facto compulsory.

which is why the federal government doesn’t need to lose any political capital by making it compulsory because they know it already will be . Unless of course you don’t work, never go out or travel internationally . Which these days is basically nobody. I mean anyone can afford a Jetstar ticket to Bali ...

compressor stall 10th Jan 2021 05:55

That’s one outcome that is quite plausible and, as per my point, the precedent has been set with yellow fever, albeit for “just” country access.

My family and I have had to produce said certificate for three countries for entry.

Global Aviator 10th Jan 2021 06:07


Originally Posted by compressor stall (Post 10964507)
That’s one outcome that is quite plausible and, as per my point, the precedent has been set with yellow fever, albeit for “just” country access.

My family and I have had to produce said certificate for three countries for entry.

Yep and if my memory services me correctly which I frequently wonder..... Before heading up into deep Africa I had to have the yellow fever proof. Had that card in my passport until it expired.

Whatever is required to get international (and domestic) travel reliable bring it on.

The new whatever.

blubak 10th Jan 2021 06:58


Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 10964353)
Not hard at all. They want to come home or not those are the rules I am very happy they have halved the inbound and tightened quarantine process. Its about time I say.

Unfortunately for the people who want to come home the rules are the rules as suggested,its not a matter of being self righteous or having a dont care attitude towards the people stranded,its really now a matter of managing & protecting what we have without going the high risk scenario.
There are always going to be people who get caught up in a border closure issue & reality now is nothing is going to change whilst the overseas issues compound day by day.

Turnleft080 11th Jan 2021 12:58


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10963644)
So again Covid at the moment is not like the flu. It has a high reproduction number and exponential spread. This is why all these measures (social distancing, travel restrictions, lockdowns etc) are being taken. To limit the total spread which limits spread to vulnerable populations.

The reason why governments aim for total elimination is because if the population is not immunised then any outbreak has a high chance of becoming uncontrolled leading to the disasters we can see in other parts of the world at the moment. At one point Italy, Brazil, UK, USA all had one case, but even with lockdowns and restrictions the virus has caused mass amounts of chaos. Australian governments have decided to not let the country get to that stage of collapse.

When we have a vaccine that eliminates the potential for overcrowding of hospitals, wiping out of vulnerable populations, mass spread, etc then the pandemic is over. The virus remains, and may flare up from time to time, but the pandemic is over.

I’ll repeat, the vaccine is about stopping a pandemic, not a virus.

So another words the vaccine should be taken by all the baby boomers, because they are subject to dying with covid as the stats show 60s+.
All the millennials will catch it have the flu symptom recover because their immune systems are stronger.
Which leaves you with the virus which can be managed by natures minerals and supplements. Did you see the news today you
can eliminate type 2 diabetes by altering your diet. Seriously, WOW, OMG then why did you invent that stupid food pyramid 40 years ago, all its done is
increase heart disease, cancers, obesity, diabetes etc. Then they take the fat out of most products call it low fat and all that does is
make you feel more hungary.
The western diet has well and truly been found out now that a little micro golf ball with snail tentacles can reap havoc.
I have never called it junk food I've called it dirty food which gives you dirty blood.



aviation_enthus 11th Jan 2021 15:50


Originally Posted by blubak (Post 10964521)
Unfortunately for the people who want to come home the rules are the rules as suggested,its not a matter of being self righteous or having a dont care attitude towards the people stranded,its really now a matter of managing & protecting what we have without going the high risk scenario.
There are always going to be people who get caught up in a border closure issue & reality now is nothing is going to change whilst the overseas issues compound day by day.

I’ll agree with you on one thing, there’s no need to “sell” any requirements to returning Australians. We all understand quarantine is required. We can all accept the fact it now costs $$$ as well. So requiring extra testing before departure is no big deal. If you want to come home, you’ll do what’s required.

However......

The problem lies with the way the system was brought in and now continues to operate:

- The short notice given for the initial application of the cap created a HUGE backlog of people that were continuously bumped off flights multiple times for months and months. I can accept this is a short term stress to deal with to create a long term solution. BUT what I don’t expect is to see the same issue being created 6 months later.

- Now the cap has been in place for a while with relatively stable numbers, bookings have stabilised and it’s pretty rare to be bumped off a flight.

- So then the REDUCTION in the cap has done the same thing as the initial introduction of the cap. Anyone unfortunate enough to be arriving in Australia in the next 4 weeks is no facing the risk they’ll loose their booking.

In fact on one of the FB groups I follow a lady had just that experience. And guess when she was offered an alternative flight???

MAY!!! 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

So now after almost a year of dealing with COVID we find Australians stranded overseas without jobs, money, accommodation, visas, etc and facing the prospect of waiting months for their rebooked flight. All because of a poorly thought out, knee jerk policy change.

So you can say “it’s not about having a don’t care attitude” all you like. But the policy as it currently stands does exactly that. It looks “good enough” to those of you on the correct side of the border, but continues to give the middle finger to those of us on the wrong side.

The Australian quarantine system could be so much better. Both for its main purpose (keeping the virus out) and for the reason it exists (to allow access to Australia). There is two levels of government to blame for that.

The one thing I’m sick and tired of reading, is how it’s the fault of the people that have to use it. AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS TRYING TO COME HOME!!!!

Sunfish 11th Jan 2021 17:50

Turnleft: It's not just "Baby Boomers" who die from Covid and the long term health effects on all organs appear to be ominous. You do not want to get infected with this virus if you value your class 1 medical certificate.

Aviation Enthusiast: As I have repeatedly said, this is a war that is being fought literally hour by hour. Of course the system isn't perfect, its been cobbled together on the run and changed as circumstances change as it should be. Your outrage is totally misplaced.

For example, if (God forbid) a mutation makes covid as deadly as ebola tomorrow then NOBODY is getting into Australia at all! Tell your lady FB friend she is lucky she has a booking for May and to be prepared to respond within a few hours if that situation changes.

This is why smart international travellers always have some "get home money" in cash or a spare open dated ticket. There are also sorts of situations where you may need to GTF out real quick. COvid was one of them.

aviation_enthus 11th Jan 2021 18:37


Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10965760)
Turnleft: It's not just "Baby Boomers" who die from Covid and the long term health effects on all organs appear to be ominous. You do not want to get infected with this virus if you value your class 1 medical certificate.

Aviation Enthusiast: As I have repeatedly said, this is a war that is being fought literally hour by hour. Of course the system isn't perfect, its been cobbled together on the run and changed as circumstances change as it should be. Your outrage is totally misplaced.

For example, if (God forbid) a mutation makes covid as deadly as ebola tomorrow then NOBODY is getting into Australia at all! Tell your lady FB friend she is lucky she has a booking for May and to be prepared to respond within a few hours if that situation changes.

This is why smart international travellers always have some "get home money" in cash or a spare open dated ticket. There are also sorts of situations where you may need to GTF out real quick. COvid was one of them.

Sunfish it has been clear throughout all your posts that you have a clear fear of COVID. That clearly clouds your viewpoint on the entire subject. So forgive me if I don’t agree that my “outrage is misplaced”.

There is a virus that spreads. How we react to it is set by the various governments and health departments around the world. As it should be.

But if you are going to sit back and respond to legitimate criticism of the system by claiming it “changes hour by hour” and “tell your FB lady friend she is lucky”, mate you can go ........

I try to offer useful comments on this thread explaining useful processes used by other comparable countries around the world to point out that perhaps a policy “cobbled together on the run” should be better after 11 months. Why? Because I think Australia can do better. Because I see directly the result of friends being affected by these changes.

It’s been over a year since COVID appeared. It’s been over 10 months since the Australian border was closed. It’ll probably be close to the end of 2021 at the earliest before any border restrictions are lifted. So because this has been going on so long already, this policy should get better and more efficient with time right? There should be improvements in the system that make it work better, not just ramping up testing of cleaning staff. Instead Australia only ever seems to go in one direction, harsher and more bureaucratic responses.

I’m not and never have argued to open the border (or even to get rid of quarantine). But neither will I sit back when people such as yourself blow off legitimate criticism or improvements to a system that is creating unnecessary hardship and stress for thousands of Aussies. Just like you’re all pissed when the states give no notice border closures.....

As for an “open ticket”. I’m pretty sure that would have been a good idea if you live in a 3rd world war zone, not sure most people would think that’s necessary living somewhere like the UK or USA. But like I said, how is this a useful suggestion when the pandemic will probably end up lasting at least 2 years?? Or when the ENTIRE WORLD closed down in April?? That sort of tip only works when it’s one country with problems.....

Sunfish 11th Jan 2021 21:13

Aviation Enthusiast:

So because this has been going on so long already, this policy should get better and more efficient with time right? There should be improvements in the system that make it work better, not just ramping up testing of cleaning staff. Instead Australia only ever seems to go in one direction, harsher and more bureaucratic responses.
Thank you for your reply. In answer to your question I would say: "Yes but". If the threat from Covid was static and constant and our local circumstances were constant then of course you are right. Our bureaucratic systems (Noun not adjective) would be expected to get considerably better over time.

However that is not the case at all. We are shooting at a moving target. The "Right" answer changes literally hour by hour. I would list the following non exhaustive list of factors to be considered:

- Our knowledge of the virus behaviour and effects is incomplete. In addition the virus is mutating, the latest South African and British strains being a major cause of concern so we are working with a snapshot of what we think this virus is like that changes with every new scientific paper. For example the latest advice (weekend) is that the current vaccines should be effective against mutations. If that were not the case our entire posture would have to be changed this week.

- our circumstances are changing. SIx months ago Victoria was cactus, now its NSW and Queensland's turn. Our response has to follow the local circumstances and change when they do.

Mistakes will be made. We must accept that. The alternative is to double and triple check every action in advance which means our response will take weeks or months and thus be useless since the rules are changing day by day.

We must accept errors. We must accept that actions will conflict with each other as 60,000 Victorians found out the hard way. To do otherwise will slow our response and make it useless.

I find it odd that some pilots are troubled by this situation. After all, once you are in the air you must make do with what you have and change your plans as circumstances change. To be a pilot needs a flexible mind set. Our public health people are having to apply this same sort of flexibility daily.

itsnotthatbloodyhard 11th Jan 2021 22:42


SIx months ago Victoria was cactus, now its NSW and Queensland's turn.
NSW is currently experiencing around zero to five cases of community transmission daily, with no upward trend. QLD similarly bugger-all. You’re suggesting this means they’re now ‘cactus’ in the way Victoria was, back when you had 700+ cases daily?


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