They all went away quicker than this one didn’t they? Stupid people are making this one stick around for ever
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Originally Posted by mattyj
(Post 11076360)
They all went away quicker than this one didn’t they?
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What is your estimate of the number of lives saved through the mitigation steps taken Australia, versus the cost of those steps, so far Mick?
Round thousands of lives and round billions in cost. |
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 11076374)
What is your estimate of the number of lives saved through the mitigation steps taken Australia, versus the cost of those steps, so far Mick?
Round thousands of lives and round billions in cost. |
This is the problem, lockdowns to most of you are the go to solution. F$&k that no lockdown let it go let’s experience what Italy and UK had ppl need to see what this virus can actually do. Make rest of Australia close to NSW costing 1 Billion a week let everyone see shop fronts boarded up The Ppl need to see hard reality. Ppl scared of getting vaccine because of BS they see on Facebook or Instagram without reading the real facts Then, the ppl will realize there is only one way out and that’s the jab. Plenty of AZ waiting to be used also Pfizer on the way. NSW could very well be the only state open to international by 2023 whilst rest of the country keep open close over 1 case of the next Delta variant.
This eradication rubbish by keep closing major city’s is not the solution 18 months on and we are in no better position then when this started. |
And I am waiting to see what happens when the UK ‘goes rouge’. Let’s all have a Summer Holiday.
I predict it’s going to be a disaster. I hope I’m wrong. |
Originally Posted by MickG0105
(Post 11076389)
Back of the napkin, lives saved would have to run to around 47,500 - 48,000 (that's taking the US/UK deaths/million rate and applying to our population less the number of deaths we've had). What would you put the cost at? The $311 billion budget number for government relief and support? That'd be around $6.5 million per life saved in crude terms.
I reckon Australia's 'let it rip' rate would have been lower than the UK and USA, given demographic differences, but I'll accept your numbers for 'back of napkin' purposes. (SOPS: It's "goes rogue", not "goes rouge". The latter is a cosmetic...) |
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 11076408)
It certain that the cost is far (far) more than the 'government' - do you mean Federal alone? - budget for just 'relief and support'. Given your obviously well-informed and researched posts, I'm surprised you'd price it on that very narrow basis.
I reckon Australia's 'let it rip' rate would have been lower than the UK and USA, given demographic differences, but I'll accept your numbers for 'back of napkin' purposes. (SOPS: It's "goes rogue", not "goes rouge". The latter is a cosmetic...) The problem with trying to cost this thing beyond a fairly simple, fairly narrow basis is that calculations rapidly become complex. Even doing just lives saved versus federal government spending is a bit flaky in that it ignores the cost of a death, even if it's just in terms of whether there's a net cost/benefit to government (beyond that there's almost certainly a cost to the economy). If you try to do it on a GDP basis then that needs to be comparative as well. We've doubtlessly spent more at the government level but our bounce-back in terms of GDP has been comparatively stellar. You'd have to ask if we were clocking over 30,000, 40,000 or 50,000 deaths what would that look like in terms of business confidence, productivity, and the like. As I said, as soon as you start breaking out from the super-simple approach the calculations get super-messy. |
Originally Posted by SOPS
(Post 11076395)
And I am waiting to see what happens when the UK ‘goes rouge’. Let’s all have a Summer Holiday.
I predict it’s going to be a disaster. I hope I’m wrong. Youtube channel predicting 100,000 cases in the next couple of weeks. What will Boris do? We will see how hospitalisation go as well. They are up to 50% vaccinations so this could be an eye opener or a trial when we get to the 50% mark. Glady's is in dreamworld regarding her 80% figure. |
Originally Posted by SOPS
(Post 11076395)
And I am waiting to see what happens when the UK ‘goes rouge’. Let’s all have a Summer Holiday.
I predict it’s going to be a disaster. I hope I’m wrong. |
Sweden with no lockdowns, schools mostly open, little mask wearing has had 14,000 deaths and a population of 10mil.
Population is centered in cities but unlike Australia most people live in apartments and not houses. So for 25 mil in Australia would have been 35-40k. If it behaves the same way. However that doesn’t count those deaths that were of the old and at risk who were likely in their last days and wouldn’t survive a bad cold let alone a 2 year covid pandemic. No one seems to be able to explain why Singapore has 36 deaths from 60k cases. |
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 11076408)
It certain that the cost is far (far) more than the 'government' - do you mean Federal alone? - budget for just 'relief and support'. Given your obviously well-informed and researched posts, I'm surprised you'd price it on that very narrow basis.
I reckon Australia's 'let it rip' rate would have been lower than the UK and USA, given demographic differences, but I'll accept your numbers for 'back of napkin' purposes. (SOPS: It's "goes rogue", not "goes rouge". The latter is a cosmetic...) |
Originally Posted by Transition Layer
(Post 11076431)
Gosh you really love to promulgate some fear mate. I reckon you’re going to need plastic sheets with all the bed wetting nonsense you sprout here.
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Originally Posted by Joker89
(Post 11076436)
No one seems to be able to explain why Singapore has 36 deaths from 60k cases.
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Because Asia is regularly exposed to seasonal coronaviruses they have a better innate immunity than European countries.
the days of mass casualties in overrun hospitals are over. Doctors have a good list of therapies now including corticosteroids, zinc and Vitamin D supplements, monoclonals..and other things.. they no longer send Covid patients home with useless remdesivir to wait it out. |
Originally Posted by Joker89
(Post 11076436)
Sweden with no lockdowns, schools mostly open, little mask wearing has had 14,000 deaths and a population of 10mil.
Population is centered in cities but unlike Australia most people live in apartments and not houses. So for 25 mil in Australia would have been 35-40k. If it behaves the same way. However that doesn’t count those deaths that were of the old and at risk who were likely in their last days and wouldn’t survive a bad cold let alone a 2 year covid pandemic. No one seems to be able to explain why Singapore has 36 deaths from 60k cases. Many many months ago "people" all said that Sweden had it right with "no lockdowns" but even Sweden admitted they had it wrong. Schools were shut (most) and they had very stringent travel restrictions (no more than 2km from memory) for a long time - cell phone were used for tracking! Life was not normal in Sweden. Many countries have "low" death numbers v COVID cases, there are a number of ways to count the deaths I assume? But more telling is there are many countries with little or no resources to fight COVID and 12/18 months later the villages and small towns are not noticeably devastated. Australia did some testing in PNG and that result was 50% COVID positive many months ago now. |
Originally Posted by Bend alot
(Post 11076642)
Your information on Sweden is VERY wrong!
... Schools were shut (most) and they had very stringent travel restrictions (no more than 2km from memory) for a long time - cell phone were used for tracking! Life was not normal in Sweden. For the record I (and my family) don't disagree that the Swedish government got things wrong. Neighbouring countries shut their borders for a while to Sweden and the Swedes also got to a point where they were asking their neighbours for assistance with hospital admissions as their own were approaching capacity. |
Originally Posted by MickG0105
(Post 11076451)
My understanding is that they took a pre-emptive approach to hospitalisations. On top of their very aggressive early testing regime they pre-emptively hospitalised anyone 45 and over who returned a positive test regardless of whether they were exhibiting symptoms or not. You can probably add the relatively compliant culture to that.
As for the other about 8K which is made up of about 5K of overseas infections and 3K of community since the start of all this, a positive result means it is off to hospital for treatment or if deemed well enough a stay in a community care facility until clear of the virus. |
Onya gladys
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Ok… the person was 90, however the first death has occurred. Police find people playing cards together.. and IKEA stays open. What wil it take, Gladys?
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IKEA has to stay open, what if you recently moved and need furniture, you expect people to live in an empty house with no bed, nothing to sleep on etc. not everyone in a city of 5 million is in the same situation.
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Originally Posted by SOPS
(Post 11076734)
Ok… the person was 90, however the first death has occurred.
While any death is tragic, I cannot fathom why we have, and are continuing, to spend such sums as mentioned by MickG when the Government has placed a specific value on human life for everything else - yet with Covid they've thrown that right out the window and are throwing money around like confetti, with scant regard for who is going to pick up the tab at the end of the party.
Originally Posted by MickG0105
...we're going to be looking at something in the order of around $10+ million per life 'saved'.
Originally Posted by SOPS
Police find people playing cards together.. and IKEA stays open. What wil it take, Gladys?
I might not necessarily agree with lockdowns, et al, but when they're imposed, everyone has an obligation to comply with them. |
The Federal Government didn’t spend the money on saving lives.
The Federal Government spent the money on keeping the economy going, to keep people in jobs, and to help business survive. They did a similar thing a decade ago, and it was generally regarded as a good investment. The economies of the countries that let covid rip suffered more than Australia’s did. International aviation and tourism has, however, of course been decimated. |
Originally Posted by Derfred
(Post 11076770)
The Federal Government didn’t spend the money on saving lives.
The Federal Government spent the money on keeping the economy going, to keep people in jobs, and to help business survive. But your point shouldn't be lost - any assessment of the efficacy and efficiency of Australia's approach needs to consider both the public health outcomes (deaths, hospitalisations, etc) AND the economic outcome (GDP, unemployment and the like). That economic component was what was missing from the simple dollars spent per lives saved analysis I offered last night. |
Vic border to close to NSW at midnight. And people from the NT in NSW being told to come home. Here we go.
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Originally Posted by Derfred
(Post 11076770)
The economies of the countries that let covid rip suffered more than Australia’s did.
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With Delta/Lambda affecting those as young as 15 is the death of anybody affected still a valid strategy?
That seems to be what Marketing and Boris are planning |
Originally Posted by Stick Flying
(Post 11076815)
If NZ and Australia don't have some form of exit strategy they will almost certainly be suffering the economic fallout long after other countries are on the path to recovery.
"
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Originally Posted by KRviator
(Post 11076746)
The first death in what, 6 months? And she wasn't 90, she was in her 90's, already well past the average life expectancy for someone in their age range, which, IIRC, is somewhere around 82-83. My question - to which there will never be an answer - is "Replace Covid with Influenza, would she have survived that infection?"
While any death is tragic, I cannot fathom why we have, and are continuing, to spend such sums as mentioned by MickG when the Government has placed a specific value on human life for everything else - yet with Covid they've thrown that right out the window and are throwing money around like confetti, with scant regard for who is going to pick up the tab at the end of the party. If that figure is even close to reality, based on around 45,000 deaths, it is obscene. No person is worth that amount of spending, no matter who they are. The Government's own figure puts a health adult, with 40 years ahead of them at only $6M, and your typical healthy adult is not the one's we are protecting - but they are the ones who are going to be stuck paying this several-hundred-billion-dollar bill for generations to come, and they've got absolutely no say in it! That's ridiculous, and be buggered if I know what the answer is. There was a group of teens at an 18th party for fuxake! Talking to the inlaws who live down that way, they reckon the Rozzers are now set up with ANPR technology on the roads in and out of their local area - and not a minute too soon, if you ask me. I might not necessarily agree with lockdowns, et al, but when they're imposed, everyone has an obligation to comply with them. I listened to a 35 yr old doctor who got covid last year talking on a melb radio station. He gave a very in depth account of how it affected him & its taken him 9 months or so to feel normal again. He stressed highly to get the jab & not only protect yourself but those who you love & cherish most. For those that disagree,thats your choice but maybe think how it would feel if you were the 1 to pass it to someone you admire or love. |
Originally Posted by MickG0105
(Post 11076426)
Yes, I just ran the Federal budget numbers there, at least in part for the sake of getting back to you in a reasonable timeframe. I'll have a further look at it over the next few days and look to roll in the state spending but there's at least a starting point there - we're going to be looking at something in the order of around $10+ million per life 'saved'.
The problem with trying to cost this thing beyond a fairly simple, fairly narrow basis is that calculations rapidly become complex. Even doing just lives saved versus federal government spending is a bit flaky in that it ignores the cost of a death, even if it's just in terms of whether there's a net cost/benefit to government (beyond that there's almost certainly a cost to the economy). If you try to do it on a GDP basis then that needs to be comparative as well. We've doubtlessly spent more at the government level but our bounce-back in terms of GDP has been comparatively stellar. You'd have to ask if we were clocking over 30,000, 40,000 or 50,000 deaths what would that look like in terms of business confidence, productivity, and the like. As I said, as soon as you start breaking out from the super-simple approach the calculations get super-messy. But, just as a matter of principle: Are you suggesting that we should put no price on the cost of things like the curtailment of liberties or the mental health implications of the 'lock downs' and other government actions? No price? |
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 11076837)
But, just as a matter of principle: Are you suggesting that we should put no price on the cost of things like the curtailment of liberties or the mental health implications of the 'lock downs' and other government actions? No price?
Could we perhaps agree that the costs of the mental health implications, curtailment of liberties and the like are roughly equivalent to the costs of the mental health implications, social dislocation and economic impacts associated with some 40,000-odd excess deaths over the period. That would solve one maths issue. |
Liberty is priceless and the government has already missed several payments..it’s time for the people to call in the debt
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Originally Posted by mattyj
(Post 11076842)
Liberty is priceless and the government has already missed several payments..it’s time for the people to call in the debt
The fact Qld/WA/NT already have most of their liberties back is a testament to that fact. |
Originally Posted by MickG0105
(Post 11076840)
It would be nice to be able to reduce all factors to a dollar figure but that often proves difficult, to the extent that it remains one of the largely intractable problems with public policy to this day.
Could we perhaps agree that the costs of the mental health implications, curtailment of liberties and the like are roughly equivalent to the costs of the mental health implications, social dislocation and economic impacts associated with some 40,000-odd excess deaths over the period. That would solve one maths issue. No: There is no automatic correspondence between the costs of the 'lockdown' and other restrictions imposed on the one hand and the lives saved on the other. Your argument only begs the question. |
I just saw on the News here, pictures of Sydney today. Masses of people out and about, no social distancing, no masks. Is this for real? Is this really happening? If it is, it’s no wonder the case numbers keep going up.
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SOPS, it's called covid fatigue. When Melbourne recorded 100 cases it took 16 weeks to get to zero. If Sydney get to 100 tomorrow (as Gladys indicated)
the mental pain just fogs up your brain. That's what lockdowns do, (it's like chemo) it may temporary reduce cases, they also mentally disintegrate you and stress your wallet and relationships. We are humans and we are meant to be social beasts. |
Originally Posted by SOPS
(Post 11076862)
I just saw on the News here, pictures of Sydney today. Masses of people out and about, no social distancing, no masks. Is this for real? Is this really happening? If it is, it’s no wonder the case numbers keep going up.
At one venue, Sydney’s Centennial Park, a visitor said it was “mayhem” with cars and crowds and that she had “never seen it so busy”.at Centennial Park, where the park’s centre was closed off, people crowded around the edges and customers crammed into the cafe without masks while failing to observe social distancing rules. “It was busier than the Easter Show,” one park visitor, identified as Natasha, said “Cars were honking horns, we were getting pushed off the footpaths and on to the horse track. At Bondi, which has had more than 70 “venues of concern” listed by NSW Health, including 20 on the “close contacts” list, maskless people strode the promenade by the beach. At Double Bay, a personal training group appeared to have done exactly what Premier Berejiklian warned against: “If you are outdoors exercising in a group of ten, make sure the ten doesn’t become 20”. Elsewhere in Sydney, including at Flemington Markets, people crowded in to do their Saturday morning shopping, while a reader reported that at Darling Square, “every outdoor table and bench is full”, and that Sydney Park was “packed like a normal Saturday”. And that was a week ago. The government should’ve locked down earlier and been serious about it rather than saying “pretty please” but the populace have to lift their act, otherwise they’ll be in their “sort of” lockdown until after winter and aviation will continue to be adversely affected. |
Originally Posted by mattyj
(Post 11076842)
Liberty is priceless and the government has already missed several payments..it’s time for the people to call in the debt
Short and sweet - what (fairly specifically) would matty do as supreme leader? Point form great - can expand if required later. Explaining how to deal with the states/federal conundrum would be appreciated within the (short) answers. Ta! |
Originally Posted by dr dre
(Post 11076883)
Seems like it:
At one venue, Sydney’s Centennial Park, a visitor said it was “mayhem” with cars and crowds and that she had “never seen it so busy”.at Centennial Park, where the park’s centre was closed off, people crowded around the edges and customers crammed into the cafe without masks while failing to observe social distancing rules. “It was busier than the Easter Show,” one park visitor, identified as Natasha, said “Cars were honking horns, we were getting pushed off the footpaths and on to the horse track. At Bondi, which has had more than 70 “venues of concern” listed by NSW Health, including 20 on the “close contacts” list, maskless people strode the promenade by the beach. At Double Bay, a personal training group appeared to have done exactly what Premier Berejiklian warned against: “If you are outdoors exercising in a group of ten, make sure the ten doesn’t become 20”. Elsewhere in Sydney, including at Flemington Markets, people crowded in to do their Saturday morning shopping, while a reader reported that at Darling Square, “every outdoor table and bench is full”, and that Sydney Park was “packed like a normal Saturday”. And that was a week ago. The government should’ve locked down earlier and been serious about it rather than saying “pretty please” but the populace have to lift their act, otherwise they’ll be in their “sort of” lockdown until after winter and aviation will continue to be adversely affected. |
I hope this kind of crap isn’t what we have to look forward to when our vaccination rates are around the uk’s current level. But alas I suspect it might be.
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