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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

mattyj 7th Jul 2021 10:42

Telling people to stay home or shelter in place is worthless and a waste of time..if you’re going to declare some people “essential workers” and require them to work..then they are exposed. Also they’re usually the poor and minorities filling those jobs, delivering your food, stacking toilet paper on shelves, driving the bus..

​​​​​….usually once their shifts are finished they go back to the most crowded, poorest ventilated and most unhealthy accommodation with their extended families where all respiratory viruses hide.

a half arsed lockdown is worse than no lockdown

aviation_enthus 7th Jul 2021 12:56


Originally Posted by mattyj (Post 11074686)
Telling people to stay home or shelter in place is worthless and a waste of time..if you’re going to declare some people “essential workers” and require them to work..then they are exposed. Also they’re usually the poor and minorities filling those jobs, delivering your food, stacking toilet paper on shelves, driving the bus..

​​​​​….usually once their shifts are finished they go back to the most crowded, poorest ventilated and most unhealthy accommodation with their extended families where all respiratory viruses hide.

a half arsed lockdown is worse than no lockdown

What you have just described is why “the advice” pre 2019 was “lockdowns are a last resort”. Because multiple pre-pandemic studies (Eg done with a clear mind), had overwhelming shown lockdowns are bad for poor people every time.

That’s also why countries like Indonesia can not follow the same steps as say Australia to combat the virus.

Even in Australia, there is plenty of evidence starting to show up that the majority of people affected by lockdowns are poor/lower middle class, generally in casual or part time employment, in hospitality, retail or other “people” industries (ie shut during lockdowns).

People on higher income are generally more able to WFH, hence they’re happy to continue lockdowns.

Lockdowns are a bad policy. Especially “snap” or “circuit breaker” lockdowns that contribute to business uncertainty.

WingNut60 7th Jul 2021 13:17


Originally Posted by aviation_enthus (Post 11074757)
Lockdowns are a bad policy. Especially “snap” or “circuit breaker” lockdowns that contribute to business uncertainty.

And yet, business confidence in W.A. is the highest seen for decades.
Maybe not in tatoo parlours and gyms but businesses that actually produce something.

aviation_enthus 7th Jul 2021 13:20


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 11074766)
And yet, business confidence in W.A. is the highest seen for decades.

WA had what, 180 odd days without a case after April 2020? You can hardly link WA with evidence against lockdowns. The effects on WA will be more like a slow burn, inflation, lack of skilled workers etc.

Lock at the effect of the “circuit breaker” lockdown in Victoria for actual evidence.

WA is it’s own special place.

WingNut60 7th Jul 2021 14:45


Originally Posted by aviation_enthus (Post 11074769)
.......................... You can hardly link WA with evidence against lockdowns. ..............

And yet, in the 5687 posts above yours, that is EXACTLY what has been asserted multiple times.

Bend alot 7th Jul 2021 18:30

WA is a Lockout place NOT a Lockdown place.

The economy effects are more comparable to Australia's Lockout we have with the rest of the World. There have been some gang buster sectors in Australia's economy during our Lockout, but that depends on what glass you have been given.

SOPS 7th Jul 2021 18:34

https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...82ee6e8be1d844

Does not seem the message is getting through.

highflyer40 7th Jul 2021 18:36


Originally Posted by Fonz121 (Post 11074601)
Personally I think it’s great that it’s out in the community bubbling along. Everyone needs to lose the elimination mindset, it’s not going to happen. The only way restrictions get relaxed is when the general public finally accept that a Covid case is not ‘Breaking News’.

Additionally, every single person in this country (over 18) has now had a chance to vaccinate. If you are that worried about getting Covid you can get the vaccine available. If not, you can have your own private lockdown where you work from home and get everything delivered.

Seriously? Every adult in Australia has been offered the vaccine? Yet only 8% of Australians are fully vaccinated? Either you are the world capitol of anti-vaxxers or I think you may be mistaken on your statement.

aviation_enthus 7th Jul 2021 18:43


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 11074810)
And yet, in the 5687 posts above yours, that is EXACTLY what has been asserted multiple times.

Lockdowns (Victoria/NSW)

NOT

Lockouts/border controls. (WA)

There is a massive difference between the two!!

Fonz121 7th Jul 2021 23:35


Seriously? Every adult in Australia has been offered the vaccine? Yet only 8% of Australians are fully vaccinated? Either you are the world capitol of anti-vaxxers or I think you may be mistaken on your statement.
Deadly serious. If you are motivated and don't believe everything Jeanette Young tells you, then you can book in right now for a vaccine. I did and I'm definitely on the younger side.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....c2bcac3f80.jpg

KRviator 7th Jul 2021 23:59


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 11074766)
And yet, business confidence in W.A. is the highest seen for decades.
Maybe not in tatoo parlours and gyms but businesses that actually produce something.

But why is that? Because WA residents can't go to Bali for their holidays, they can't go interstate unless they want to risk McGowan closing the border while they're away, so they're forced to holiday intrastate. It isn't voluntary - as history shows... Not to mention WA has reaped the benefit of surging iron ore prices - which at almost $220USD a tonne are giving one hell of a topup to the state's coffers, with prices almost tripling from the start of the pandemic.

Equating state business confidence solely to the lack of lockdowns, without recognizing the role WA's border restrictions play is disingenuous and doesn't reflect the whole story...

WingNut60 8th Jul 2021 00:35


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11075063)

Equating state business confidence solely to the lack of lockdown..........

Did I say that? I don't think so.

Gnadenburg 8th Jul 2021 02:13


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11074450)
You can think of it as being ignorant of those overseas or as it being unAustralian, but while I've always subscribed to the concept of 'doing the right thing', I don't believe it should be done 'at any cost'. That's what people are suggesting. "Reopen the borders, bring our people home, let them quarantine at home, it'll be fine!'

Except it won't be.The PPE for the staff to process you. The ongoing & repetitive cleaning of the vehicles used to transport you. The overtime and diversion of GD police to monitor the respective HQ sites. The salaries of the security guards who monitor the corridors, government-sponsored repatriation flights, if you can get one. And let's not forget, the hundreds of millions of dollars it costs your fellow Australian's whennot if it gets out of HQ again, because some asreclown of a driver of the flightcrew who brought you over wasn't vaccinated, caught it, and spread the love throughout the eastern suburbs, or an UberEats driver tarried in the corridor delivering someone's dinner.

More returnee's = more flightcrew = more chance of it getting out, even if you quarantine at home!. Going back to pre-Covid flight numbers, which some here seem to be suggesting happen, will likely result in a similar number of flight & cabin crew in HQ as we have returning citizens now. And as we've proven so many times, HQ can't keep it contained, and that being the case, where is the reward for the additional risk?

You say you can quarantine at home. Fat chance of that. We have seen far too many examples of returning citizens, or even interstate travelers breaking out of the HQ system, the old couple who was reported to have triggered the northern beaches outbreak after they decided to go for lunch at the RSL, HQ guards getting it on with 'inmates', the bird who climbed down two balconies and broke a door to get out.... Face facts - people cannot be trusted to do the right thing. Vaccinated or not. Home quarantine or not. Most people will play by the rules but there will always be those that don't! And that's probably why home quarantine isn't even on their radar. Because sooner or later, someone will decide home-quarantine isn't all its' cracked up to be, will go to the shops and will spread it through the community. Being vaccinated simply means there is less risk of it happening.

If I read that right, 5% of those in that chart were vaccinated of some description, and still caught, or had, the pestilence.

If you apply that to the so-called magic figure of 30,000 overseas citizens, that's still 1,500 people coming home, to suggested home quarantine, with the virus. Even reducing it to the 2% reported to be fully vaccinated still gives you 600 people coming home with it. Whether that number will stay static or reduce as time goes on, I can't say. If it doesn't though, the Government will be knowingly importing Covid at a rate of roughly 4 cases per aircraft (assuming 200 pax), with the core belief that every one of those people will not pass it on to their housemates or family while they are in home quarantine.....Until we reach herd immunity or the vaccination target, I can't see that happening...

Stop being sensationalist. Bringing home fellow Australians is as moral a debate as why shut down our economy to protect many who will be dead soon anyways? That's the line you have taken. The cost of it? Or more likely, the cost to you? Not very nation building in a century that's going to need strength and resolve.

Repatriating Australians stimulate the economy at a time when the economic panacea of immigration is on hold.

You have no idea what goes on in hotel quarantine! Uber drivers don't deliver. And why the hell aren't transport staff vaccinated? Just as quarantine staff must be. The Fox Footy channel wasn't working in my hotel and it took a week to find a vaccinated technician. Stop making stuff up!

This brings me back to what are the risks of a COVID tested and COVID vaccinated fellow Australian repatriating, passing on COVID, to a COVID vaccinated, daily COVID tested, hotel quarantine staff member in PPE equipment? What are now the chances of community spillage? Near zero.

Wow! There's a big problem solved. The caveat being repatriating Australians lying about their vaccination status. This may be the case in the positive cases of NSW vaccinated returnees and it is easily countered by presenting legitimate vaccination evidence. I had to offer my vaccination status to the Vic Government who mixed me up with returnees from high risk countries.

The most frightening issue with COVID, is the common sense solutions, lost on those who would rather live in irrational fear.





PoppaJo 8th Jul 2021 02:31

Western Australia Premier @MarkMcGowanMP has threatened an indefinite border closure with New South Wales until the virus has been “crushed and killed”.

The others will follow. She will basically be her own state with spread and open to nobody. However the people of that state will be able to move about the state I guess.

Alan is going to need more cash soon.


ruprecht 8th Jul 2021 02:39


Originally Posted by PoppaJo (Post 11075098)
Western Australia Premier @MarkMcGowanMP has threatened an indefinite border closure with New South Wales until the virus has been “crushed and killed”.

The others will follow. She will basically be her own state with spread and open to nobody. However the people of that state will be able to move about the state I guess.

Alan is going to need more cash soon.

I assume Mark McGowan would be happy for all available vaccines in the country to go to NSW at the moment?

NSW should concentrate on its own citizens now, including limiting repatriation to NSW residents only for the duration of this lockdown. If WA wishes to repatriate WA residents then they can make that decision.

Torukmacto 8th Jul 2021 02:50

Controlling the masses with fear . Politics 101 . Take your life back , protect your family and friends and be part of the solution to get life back to a new normal . Get vaccinated!

Icarus2001 8th Jul 2021 02:51


The most frightening issue with COVID, is the common sense solutions, lost on those who would rather live in irrational fear.
I think that summarises this thread very well.

Cafe City 8th Jul 2021 03:56


Originally Posted by Torukmacto (Post 11075104)
Controlling the masses with fear . Politics 101 . Take your life back , protect your family and friends and be part of the solution to get life back to a new normal . Get vaccinated!

That’s been my feeling for a while now.
Covid has presented an opportunity for these politicians to get what they have always wanted- Power.
Let’s face it, It’s their whole raison d’ętre. They’re certainly not in the job for altruistic motives and few have any practical life skills to be able to lead with any credibility.
Think for yourselves and take some personal responsibility.
These clowns are leading us on wild goose chase.

The The 8th Jul 2021 04:23


Originally Posted by ruprecht (Post 11075101)
I assume Mark McGowan would be happy for all available vaccines in the country to go to NSW at the moment?

NSW should concentrate on its own citizens now, including limiting repatriation to NSW residents only for the duration of this lockdown. If WA wishes to repatriate WA residents then they can make that decision.

I'd be more than happy to see vaccination focused where most needed. Each state keep very limited Pfizer to continue front line or vulnerable vaccinations and pour the rest into Sydney. Get the population of Sydney vaccinated as soon as possible with Pfizer which only has 3wks between jabs.

jrfsp 8th Jul 2021 04:26


Originally Posted by The The (Post 11075123)
I'd be more than happy to see vaccination focused where most needed. Each state keep very limited Pfizer to continue front line or vulnerable vaccinations and pour the rest into Sydney. Get the population of Sydney vaccinated as soon as possible with Pfizer which only has 3wks between jabs.

There would be blue murder if this happened and would essentially spell the end of any re-election of scomo - i cant see it happening

PoppaJo 8th Jul 2021 05:26

The PM just slip something much harder is coming for Sydney. Go Hard Gladys and let’s get it over and done with. Stop believing your people will do the right thing.

blubak 8th Jul 2021 09:27


Originally Posted by PoppaJo (Post 11075130)
The PM just slip something much harder is coming for Sydney. Go Hard Gladys and let’s get it over and done with. Stop believing your people will do the right thing.

I just listened to her news confetence from earlier today,many dont believe covid is real & that of course is an entitlement of every person however for the sake of everyone(believers or conspiracy theorists) isnt it now time to do as she asks & comply for the sake & best outcome of everyone.
She will be blasted for going harder next week by many yet on the other hand she is being ridiculed right now by the people she is trying to appease & those are the ones using any excuse to live completely as normal.
I dont live in nsw & last year i was jealous of all the freedom they had but for anyone who thinks a long lockdown is not a reality,think again,you do not want to be part of it,just comply & think of everyone-not just yourself.

mattyj 8th Jul 2021 11:01

“Just comply”


listen to yourself :yuk:

SOPS 8th Jul 2021 11:49


Originally Posted by mattyj (Post 11075262)
“Just comply”


listen to yourself :yuk:

And what do you suggest, Matty?

Mafortion 8th Jul 2021 16:22


Originally Posted by Fonz121 (Post 11075051)
Deadly serious. If you are motivated and don't believe everything Jeanette Young tells you, then you can book in right now for a vaccine. I did and I'm definitely on the younger side.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....c2bcac3f80.jpg

The information from that clinic is not exactly true. Evidence suggests that having an AstraZeneca shot, followed by Pfizer, provides a stronger response than two AstraZeneca doses.

dirtyd 8th Jul 2021 16:32


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11075281)
And what do you suggest, Matty?

As long as there is covid there is no answer to suggest.
The borders will remain closed until covid is eradicated like smallpox.
Asking when borders will reopen is like listening to a child asking if we are there yet every 30 seconds.
Are you really that much worse off than you were 16 months ago?
It would be such a shame if covid entered the country now after so much sacrifice so until it’s stamped out and no one can be infected, borders will be shut.

aviation_enthus 8th Jul 2021 21:05


Originally Posted by dirtyd (Post 11075437)
As long as there is covid there is no answer to suggest.
The borders will remain closed until covid is eradicated like smallpox.
Asking when borders will reopen is like listening to a child asking if we are there yet every 30 seconds.
Are you really that much worse off than you were 16 months ago?
It would be such a shame if covid entered the country now after so much sacrifice so until it’s stamped out and no one can be infected, borders will be shut.

Eradicated? Hahahaha! Oh dear that was a good laugh.

No other country on earth expects it to be eradicated.

“The first smallpox immunization was created by Edward Jenner in 1796. But it took more than 200 years and a worldwide vaccination program to eradicate the disease”

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www....-smallpox.html


Green.Dot 8th Jul 2021 22:10

‘Straya to get 1 million Pfizer doses a week from July 19.

Hang in there, ignore the nay-sayers, guaranteed* the game should change in a very good way soon enough.

*a guarantee is not a guarantee.




MickG0105 8th Jul 2021 23:18


Originally Posted by Mafortion (Post 11075431)
The information from that clinic is not exactly true. Evidence suggests that having an AstraZeneca shot, followed by Pfizer, provides a stronger response than two AstraZeneca doses.

You need to be mindful of the fact that the recently published Com-COV Study notes that the increased reactogenicity seen in the Az-Pfizer group when compared to the Az-Az group may be related to the prime-boost interval of only 28 days for both groups. The recommended interval for Az-Az is 84 days. The study group will be publishing the results for the recommended 84 day interval Az-Az group once they are to hand.

You're correct though in that the study shows that, on the face of it, you can mix vaccines. All the usual caveats for short-term, small group (463 adults ≥ 50 years) studies applies though. This was not the equivalent of a Phase III trial.

mattyj 8th Jul 2021 23:21

Great Britain has something like 85% vaccination rate and a 600% increase in Covid cases in the last month..and giving up on mitigation. Hopefully their British version of the vaccine is keeping hospitalisations down but eradication will never happen..NEVER

MickG0105 8th Jul 2021 23:39


Originally Posted by mattyj (Post 11075603)
Great Britain has something like 85% vaccination rate and a 600% increase in Covid cases in the last month..

I don't know where you get 85 percent from; as of two days ago the UK had 51.1 percent of the population fully vaccinated (68.3 percent had received at least one shot).

For the month of June the three day moving average of new cases actually rose by nearly 700 percent, from 3,262 to 22,700. Deaths, which should lag new cases by about 14 days, are also starting to tick up - up by about 500 percent for the month off a very low base of 3.

mattyj 9th Jul 2021 00:20

Oh yeah it’s not the whole of uk..just England 1 shot

Foxxster 9th Jul 2021 01:41

Attempted suicide rates among Victorian teenagers have skyrocketed by 184 per cent in the past six months.

Disturbing new data from the Kids Helpline revealed the shocking statistic after Victoria was plunged into its fourth major Covid-19 lockdown in the past 12 months.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...4750a0391b0653

Lead Balloon 9th Jul 2021 02:00

But all that and more is a price 'worth' paying, surely? All the economic numbers are great. Everyone should be 'living it up in lockdown' and relishing the increasing price of their home. And think of all the lives saved from C-19.

The end of the beginning of the response to the pandemic in Australia will come when an increasingly frustrated, desperate and disillusioned population finally says: "F*ck it. We're over this and we'll do what we want and you can fine and lock us up for as long as you like." I know people who've said they'd rather die than lose the business they've spent a lifetime building (including employing many people).

Sooner or later, someone's gonna have to put a price on the response and justify why that's worth paying in return for the lives saved from C-19. That price includes the increased suicides.

Hopefully it won't come to widespread refusal to comply. But what's the plan if the goals start overflowing with people who do refuse and burn their PINs?

Let's hope that Scotty from Marketing's announcement about millions of doses of Phyzer hitting the shores soon will overcome vaccine hesitancy and result in vaccination rates that he should have been facilitating around a year ago (along with proper quarantine facilities), and relaxation of restrictions.

PoppaJo 9th Jul 2021 02:24

Right Ok, see you in 6 months Sydney.

MickG0105 9th Jul 2021 03:04


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11075638)
Attempted suicide rates among Victorian teenagers have skyrocketed by 184 per cent in the past six months.

Disturbing new data from the Kids Helpline revealed the shocking statistic after Victoria was plunged into its fourth major Covid-19 lockdown in the past 12 months.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...4750a0391b0653

As is pretty typical these days when you find the primary source reporting you'll see that it does not match the subsequent secondary reporting in the media.

There most assuredly has not been a 184 percent increase in attempted suicide rates among Victorian teenagers at all. The 184 percent increase in Victoria was for 'duty of care interventions enacted by Kids Helpline on behalf of children and young people'. For starters, 'children and young people' is not just teenagers; it covers those aged between 5-25. As noted in the primary report, '75% of emergency interventions were for young people aged 13-18'.

Further 'duty of care interventions' includes but is not limited to emergency interventions relating to child abuse (these made up 31 percent of the interventions in Victoria) as well as interventions in response to an immediate intent to enact suicide (44 percent).

What the primary reporting does show is that there is a disparity between Victoria, and Queensland and New South Wales, with regards to the increase in duty of care interventions enacted over the six months from 1 December 2020 – 31 May 2021. During the six months covered Victoria had two lockdowns, their third and fourth, between 12-17 February and 27 May - 10 June (note that this lockdown just fell into the reporting period so its impact would be questionable). During the same period Queensland also had two shorter lockdowns, their second and third, between 8-11 January and 29 March - 1 April. New South Wales had no lockdowns during the period covered by the report but saw a not dissimilar increase in duty of care interventions to Queensland, up by 40 percent compared to Queensland's 46 percent increase.

Sitting below the reporting is of course the data and we don't seem to have access to that. A persistent concern with the Kids Helpline data is that they have a very low Call Answer Rate, typically less than 50 percent. When doing any form of comparative analysis on a state-by-state basis you would want to be satisfied that there wasn't biasing in the calls answered/abandoned by state.

WingNut60 9th Jul 2021 04:17


Originally Posted by MickG0105 (Post 11075660)
As is pretty typical these days when you find the primary source reporting you'll see that it does not match the subsequent secondary reporting in the media.

There most assuredly has not been a 184 percent increase in attempted suicide rates among Victorian teenagers at all. The 184 percent increase in Victoria was for 'duty of care interventions enacted by Kids Helpline on behalf of children and young people'. For starters, 'children and young people' is not just teenagers; it covers those aged between 5-25. As noted in the primary report, '75% of emergency interventions were for young people aged 13-18'.
............

Wash your mouth out, Mick.
Don't you dare go spouting out facts and common sense on this thread.

MickG0105 9th Jul 2021 04:31


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 11075669)
Wash your mouth out, Mick.
Don't you dare go spouting out facts and common sense on this thread.

Mea culpa. Whatever was I thinking?! Ah, there you go - thinking - maybe that was the problem.

StudentInDebt 9th Jul 2021 06:06


Originally Posted by MickG0105 (Post 11075675)
Mea culpa. Whatever was I thinking?! Ah, there you go - thinking - maybe that was the problem.

Lost art nowadays it seems.

Foxxster 9th Jul 2021 07:02

mkay. Always glad for facts to be flushed out.


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