It amazes me that as professional pilots we cannot accept that the knowledge about this virus gets better with time and therefore will/may require a change to our response.
As pilots we do this all the time.
Why do some of us do not allow other professionals and Governments to change advice?
I would hate to assume that this stance against the changing advice/response is based on a political position.

To enable the CRM analogy to be considered in this conversation, the general population would need to have the same level of knowledge as the medical profession.
I am sure that when you moved on to a new type, a lot of what was written in study material did not make sense. You studied it and eventually it did make sense.
The medical profession is in the learning phase with this virus without any guidance or study material.

As they learn more things will change.

W

We need to “crack down” on the real problem. Rampant overreach.

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...o-fly-overseas

Correct me if I’m wrong but the halving of caps on international arrivals has come in the face of the ‘Delta’ strain of the virus, not because there has been another leak in the hotel quarantine system. A limit on arrivals has always been in place, it makes no difference if people head overseas in numbers, they know there is a queue to get back in. So instead of halving the caps, just do a better job of prioritising which people are permitted to enter Australia.

Hopefully our future. My guess or hope sometime first quarter 2022. As we are behind in our vaccination program and it won’t be until February or March that we will match the current UK rate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...trictions.html

What it "needs" is a price put on it. Dollars. Along with the price of the mental and physical and mental health issues, suicides, and plain old economic loss. Dollars.

The dollars might be an estimate, but at the moment there is not even that.

Whether the approach taken to Covid 19 is "the right solution" depends on how much it really costs.

The approach being taken at the moment is to 'throw everything' at the virus, irrespective of the cost (though it would have been nice if the Federal government had thrown money at proper quarantine facilities earlier, when it was durr-obvious they were needed). Covid 19 is 'public enemy number 1' and it's being fought no matter the cost. No price is put on the value of the lives saved.

But why, then, don't we shut down the roads, permanently, to prevent the loss of life in road accidents? Our political 'leaders' won't say it, but the reason is because the consequential costs to society of shutting the roads down would far outweigh the value of the lives that would be saved.

Maybe a life lost on the road is less valuable than a life lost to Covid 19?

The response to Covid 19 reminds me a lot of aviation safety regulation in Australia.

Our political 'leaders' have abdicated their responsibilities to technical - in this case medical - experts. The medical experts have been asked how to fight Covid 19 and our 'leaders' have 'acted on the medical advice'.

The medical experts have not been asked for - because they couldn't tell you - an estimate of the cost of fighting Covid 19 in the way they've recommended. Estimating the value of curtailed liberties, the value of the physical and mental health impacts of those locked down or restricted in travel, the businesses and livelihoods lost and just plain old economic activity, is not their job. The medical experts might 'care' about those costs, in the sense that they'd prefer the costs not be paid, but it's not the medical experts' job to decide whether or not the costs should be paid in return for following their recommended approach to mitigating Covid 19 risks. That's supposed to be the job of our 'leaders'.

Ask CASA for the real costs of, for example, the 'community service flight' changes. CASA wouldn't know and doesn't care. It's moved risks out of the air to 'somewhere else' where 'someone else' will pay the price.

Still, all of the economic numbers are great. Record house prices, low unemployment, GDP and inflation numbers looking good. Perhaps what Australia should keep doing indefinitely, and irrespective of Covid 19, is randomly locking down cities, randomly shutting down interstate and international borders and going the odd trillion or so into further debt). What could possibly go wrong?

It’s already been suggested:

LNP Senator Gerard Rennick says borders should stay closed to prevent foreigners pushing down wages

Didn’t McGowan also want his border closed permanently to try and keep the meth out?

well he is right that the third world level of population growth driven by various forms of immigration most certainly have kept wages low and is a deliberate policy lobbied by big business.

as for keeping the borders closed, that part is madness.

you can of course open the borders AND significantly reduce immigration at the same time.

Dunno about the border, but he certainly wants to keep his G2G pass so they can track not only who's coming in, but where you'll be going once you're in.

I just can't believe people are happy to live in North Korea.

I won't argue with the principle of protecting the right to protest.
What I do not accept is that anyone either needs to nor has the right to break the law in order to protest.

The examples that you cite involved people breaking the laws regarding wearing of masks and social distancing.
If you allow people to break the law in order to "big note" their protests then which laws do you think that they should be allowed to break? Common affray? Manslaughter, perhaps?

I agree. You can have open borders.. but the pre Covid level of immigration has to stop. Aside from anything else, wages have to stop been driven to rock bottom, and we have to stop importing other countries problems.

No. He wanted to keep the state border police inspection posts to scrutinise for narcotics traffic. Not quite the same as closing the border.

Just for the record, WA has had those border inspection posts for at least 30 years (Eucla and Kununarra).
Police conduct both random and targeted inspections of cars crossing the border for firearms, etc.
And quarantine check cars for prohibited movement of agricultural products.

I have seen exactly the same in the U.S.
The inspection post on the MonIda border comes to mind.

Yep. Big business wants cheap labour. All mention of "skilled labour" is horse feathers.
Just ask Gina Hancock.

If they want skilled labour they should be recruiting in Europe and South America, not just S-E Asia.
Or they could try spending a couple of dollars on training domestic employees.

No. What he and Dawson wanted to do was keep the controlled border and the g2g pass post pandemic. That means you would have to apply to enter the state and supply a range of personal details. He back peddled pretty quick when people questioned his police state mentality. WA police have used the g2g to track criminals as well as accessing the COVID check-in app for criminal investigations. Such actions are an appalling abuse of police powers into health and undermines the success of the check-in app which should be solely for public health.

People have asserted that as being his avowed aim however I have seen nothing that shows that to be the case.
I saw a very brief clip on the news where he responded briefly about the possible benefit of ongoing border controls however he did not say anything specific in that interview.
It was later reported as ".......Mr McGowan would not rule out extending the G2G application system beyond the pandemic, arguing it had been effective in keeping not just COVID-19 out, but also illicit drugs such as methamphetamine......."
My recollection is that it was a very short, almost throw-away reply to a leading question.
I'm calling "fake news" on that one.

Perhaps he made those assertions in a different interview in which case I'd be interested to see the footage.

As for the mis-use of the Covid check-in app, I agree.
A terrible abuse of trust for which all responsible should be held to account.
I am further interested to know whatever happened to the promise to permanently delete records after 28 days.
Records older than 28 days can be of no further use for legitimate contact tracing.
So, are they being deleted?

Here you go. McGowan backflip. Make of the reporting what you will.

It wasn’t what he said, it’s what he didn’t say. Journos will read into things far more than politicians intend. Alternatively, it’s possible politicians intend for things to be interpreted in a particular way.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bre...93fb0f0bd85acb

If he wasn’t even contemplating it why not provide a direct ‘NO’ when asked if the G2G pass would continue post pandemic? McGowan was most likely just thinking out loud.

Exactly!

I had already seen that article; and others.
I also saw the original interview.
A refusal to confirm is not a confirmation of intention.

He was dumb not to come straight out and say what he knew all along - that he would never be able to carry that one off, even if he wanted to.
And unlike the journos, I didn't see anything in his response that suggested that he had any such intention in the first place.

Chris Dawson? Maybe.
He's a copper and they've never been squeamish about trampling on civil rights.

I couldn’t agree more! House prices are booming so that must be good, right? Couldn’t be a bubble. Nah. And inflation, it’s rising in Australia, Europe and the USA so that’s a good thing, right? And yes, an extra trillion dollars in debt, who cares! Just print some more money, right? Of course. So yes, closing borders and locking down countries for everyone (except the wealthy, famous and of course politicians) is a great thing. Can we have some more please sir? I mean, flu cases are at an all time low so keep the place under lock and key I say.

What’s the plan next week Gladys? Care to take a one week full blown Dan Lockdown to exit this shitshow? I wouldn’t mind some of my roster back thanks let alone all those poor people who have got absolutely nothing for what appears is going to be a long while yet.

Is she seriously thinking she can get out of this mess via a suppression strategy from next week? I mean I’m sure it can be done, however they will be a red zone until September. Hurry the $!&@ up!

Just read an article in the SMH referring to her as a 'cool mum'.
Looks like people are just doing as they like & as long as they have a story to back it up,theres no problem.
I know that many agree with her stratergy but like you point out there are many who just want it over with asap.
We in vic know all about lockdowns & of course there are as many that agree as disagree so hopefully for all in nsw right now it ends quickly.

Kingsford Smith cannot be at a standstill until the end of August. I can’t believe that I am siding with McGowan here, but if there is a time to play whack a mole, now is it.

I have stood by her approach in the past but for heavens sake get it over and done with and we can get back into YSSY by the end of this month.

My colleagues down there all are fairly upfront that they are living on scraps for the next 8 weeks. I don’t know how half of them do it. Some are so financially screwed they are asking to move base to a regional port to get back in the black. Many industries will go back under her suppression attempt next week however Aviation will be 4-8 weeks behind.

You're missing the point. It isn't Gladys that has the issue. She's not only trying to keep things going, she's trying to keep Australia going, avoiding a state/city-wide lockdown and arguing against reducing the arrivals cap (though I disagree with her there, though, it should be reduced, "they" have had plenty of time to get home, and if you want to go, you can bloody well stay gone, till we get a handle on it).

IMHO, the problem is the likes of McGowan and Queen-P and their "Zero Covid at any cost" mantra that's butt-phucking Victoria (first) and now NSW & Queensland residents. Have a look at the statistics - in the last 6 months, there's been over 1,000 new cases in NSW alone, yet not a single death. However the borders are "slammed closed" every time someone in Cobar sneezes.

If NSW can go from 4,700 cases to 5,700 cases in 6 months, without a single fatality do you really think it warrants border closures? Or if you go back a year, going from 3,200 cases & 51 total deaths to 5,700 cases and 56 total deaths (2,500 new cases but only 6 Covid deaths in 12 months), can anyone honestly say it warrants the over-reaction from the likes of McGoose or Anna-Stayaway - or is it they are so shyte-scared of it in their respective states as their state health systems couldn't cope with it the way NSW has? And let's remember, in Clive v WA, the WA CHO testified they could handle 5,000 actuve cases of Covid at any one time....

So who is it that really has a problem with Covid management??

The media and cowards

Avoiding a city wide lockdown??? Isnt that whats currently happening?? Half arsed and will drag on for longer....just get on with it.....the borders to the rest of the country are thankfully starting to open up again after the quick lockdowns.

Why always single out WA and QLD.......SA and TAS are also on the zero covid mentality - nothing to do with politics obviously....

Why am I always singling out WA and Qld? No, it ain't politics, I don't subscribe to either Labor or Liberal, rather I genuinely believe they're all a pack of asreholes and you're only voting on who is going to use the most lube while they screw you over...

But, to actually answer your question, for WA simply because I work there, and their standard response is to lock out everyone from NSW, not just the LGA. By the end of this dance, I will be well over $100K out of pocket because I cannot get to work. I had 11 months off work last year, burning through what leave I could access at half-pay, then going on LWOP. I am going on LWOP again now because I am in NSW and can't get to work, even though I live in an LGA that has had exactly zero local cases, since Covid began! But obviously, the 'expert' health advice being given by the WA CHO is that we're all too much of a risk out here in the sticks of NSW, so I'm SOL, along with dozens of colleagues.

But you've raised Tasmania, so let's consider what would happen if I worked in the apple aisle:
South Australia is copying WA and locking out anyone and everyone from NSW, no matter if you live in Walgett, Wyong or Waverly! The difference is, only one of those places has Covid issues...

And as for Queensland, no one in NSW is going to let her off the hook after her "Queensland hospitals are for Queenslanders!" comment that led to the death of an infant, even if indirectly. Nor are they going to forgive the impact on NSW citizens who live in Northern NSW and their being locked out of Queensland, while at the same time, the Queen-P's-Land CHO openly declared "if you're famous, a footy player, or are going to bring some $$ with you, we'll welcome you with open arms!" while at the same time, thumbing her nose at everyone else.

So no, it isn't politics, if you treat Australian citizens like shyte, expect to be called out on it.

Does that come off Orchard Road? ;)

And here we go again

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/cov...6NGMFIOWYZG44/

Agreed her approach has been very sensible but now its a bit of a different story.
There are all of these close contacts of the unvaccinated nurse & also the staff in a nursing home of whom 2/3 are not vaccinated.
The feds say all healthcare workers have to have been vaccinated by Sept 1st,thats 2 months away ffs!
If these are the facts & nobody is taking any notice of her stay at home orders & whatever else she has in place it is now time as you say to go full tilt to control it.
Personally i hate strict lockdowns along with most others i know but looking at whats unfolding in nsw now,its going to go on for a long time & end up in a long lockdown just like ours last year.
Good luck to everyone being affected(again),we are all hoping this is over very soon.

Cowering entitlement!

Not since the Fall of Singapore in 1942 have so many Australians around the globe been abandoned. Those dark times were compounded by the fact we were at war.

The attitudes of the Australian public to fellow Australians abroad has been a disgrace. Akin to blaming bushfire victims for living in the bush, flood victims for living near rivers. Now, the public hysteria and abandonment of overseas Australians has been turned into political mileage. Distracting politicians and Australians alike, from not only the systemic failure of government in meeting the first challenge of the century ( God help us if war involving near-peer adversaries such as China ) but also the decency on what it took to build this country on the basis of immigration and diversity last century.

There are simple, pragmatic solutions to what we have have faced with a million Australians abroad that don't involve mixing them all up in a failed hotel quarantine system. It is not difficult nor impossible to ensure returning Aussies vaccinated from countries offering such. Look at our top 15 trading partners and at least half would be viable in having returnees vaccinated or at least government sponsored programs. COVID vaccinated and tested returnees pose little risk.

I don't doubt that when Australians start travelling again, the masses with the screw the Aussies abroad and raise the drawbridge attitude, will expect the Australian government to come rescue them and their families from any troubles they may experience. Terrorism, natural disasters or consular support from being "banged up abroad".

Cowering fools and bogans.

No need to worry:

The results suggest that vaccines in current use will remain protective against the lambda variant

SARS-CoV-2 Lambda Variant Remains Susceptible to Neutralization by mRNA Vaccine-elicited Antibodies

Couldn’t have said it better - what a bunch of cowardly, spineless, heartless pr!cks some have become.

Spoken like someone who expects a handout when things go to shyte. I'd love the Government to show me the same support you expect them to show someone stuck overseas - because so far, I have received exactly $0.00 from CenterLink / JobKeeper / JobSeeker / 'the Government' in support, be it financial or otherwise, despite looking at a 6-figure financial loss due to this. I don't think I am alone in that either...

At the start of the pandemic, we were told there were approximately 30,000-odd Australians registered with DFAT who wanted to come home. Since then, thousands have left and returned, a few multiple times over, and we are still at or above, that original figure.

Australia has done pretty well in terms of Covid cases, though no doubt it is due to paranoid state leaders raising the drawbridge themselves when there's a sniffle somewhere, but I don't see you arguing against that mentality to allow the hundreds of thousands of Australian's who are already in Australia their "right to travel" (or rather, their constitutionally-protected right to not be penalised based on the state in which they live) vs the comparatively few stuck overseas their "right to return home".

The rights of 26,000,000 Australian's to travel freely within their own country without the border bollocks - or simply to their place of employment outweigh the desire of a few to come home. I'll be quite frank, were I PM, there wouldn't be any international arrivals until Australia had reached either herd immunity, or the vaccination target. Whether it is international flightcrew passing it on to their transport/hotel workers, or HQ leaks - and I do agree with you that that system is an abortion - from returning passengers have cost this country tens of billions of dollars. IIRC, the ABC quoted the last Victorian lockdown at $125M per day, the current Sydney one, $140M per day!

Reckon that is truly worth the cost of bringing a few thousand 'stranded' citizens home? I don't think it is...

Cowering entitlement!

Not since the Fall of Singapore in 1942 have so many Australians around the globe been abandoned. Those dark times were compounded by the fact we were at war.

The attitudes of the Australian public to fellow Australians abroad has been a disgrace. Akin to blaming bushfire victims for living in the bush, flood victims for living near rivers. Now, the public hysteria and abandonment of overseas Australians has been turned into political mileage. Distracting politicians and Australians alike, from not only the systemic failure of government in meeting the first challenge of the century ( God help us if war involving near-peer adversaries such as China ) but also the decency on what it took to build this country on the basis of immigration and diversity last century.

There are simple, pragmatic solutions to what we have have faced with a million Australians abroad that don't involve mixing them all up in a failed hotel quarantine system. It is not difficult nor impossible to ensure returning Aussies vaccinated from countries offering such. Look at our top 15 trading partners and at least half would be viable in having returnees vaccinated or at least government sponsored programs. COVID vaccinated and tested returnees pose little risk.

I don't doubt that when Australians start travelling again, the masses with the screw the Aussies abroad and raise the drawbridge attitude, will expect the Australian government to come rescue them and their families from any troubles they may experience. Terrorism, natural disasters or consular support from being "banged up abroad".

Cowering fools and bogans

Exactly ,
Not that long ago a generation offered the ultimate sacrifice to defend the country now we won’t risk a jab for a better future . Happy to leave the next generation paying off our debts so we can sit at home feeling safe . Get the impression many feel entitled to having a life of no sacrifices and leave to others for protection . It’s governments job to keep me safe it’s unions job to protect my job while I offer nothing but take everything .

This is becoming a bit of a joke! Lambda more contagious than delta, delta more contagious than beta. So I'm guessing by years end we will have a virus that will be so contagious it will be transmitted by mobile phone waves whilst talking to an infectious person.

Yes, NZ has done a better job than Australia to this point in time.
The world has enough idiots and getting 100% vaccination is not going to happen.

There is an absence of reality planning, either legislate 100 vaccination for 99.999%
of every thing or maintain the crazy world of denial and the loony news from Mr. Conflation and Mrs Cherry Picker

You probably caught a new strain just reading about it.

It's not 'a joke' rather it is simply how mutant strains emerge and become prevalent enough to make it into a sizeable enough proportion of the population to become noticeable.

Given the current pandemic spread of the coronavirus mutations are likely bobbing up frequently. However, in order for any of the new variants to 'succeed' enough to be noticed they need to be doing something 'better' than the current dominant variant. Transmissibility and virulence are two ways of succeeding. You will rarely if ever see less successful - that is less transmissible or less virulent - mutated variants outside of laboratories.

A couple of blokes - Darwin and Wallace - wrote about this sort of thing some time back.

I think the media sensed that the great unwashed were not scared enough any longer, so they keep reporting minor changes to the C19 virus. Imagine if suicides in Australia were reported at the same rate…or motor vehicle deaths.

Suicide deaths in Australia, around 3200 per annum.

Motor vehicle accident deaths around 1100 per annum.

The Conservative fake news brigade is out in force, conflating irrelevant facts with covid
when Australia has due its actions, kept covid so far to very low numbers.
Its this kind of toxic propaganda that poses a greater long term risk to logical
thinking.

I made no claim about fake news. Read my post again.

For the last 18 months the media has been in a Covid frenzy. massively over reporting tiny details, small case numbers etc. Misrepresenting ATAGI advice on Astra Zeneca to the point that the media claimed it was unsafe for under fifties/forties/sixties. To the point the Qld CHO weighed in and was reported massively but when the Australian CMO (federal) contradicted her medical advice it was hardly reported in the media.
Misrepresenting Morrison (no not a fan but still) that he told young people to get the AZ vaccine. I saw his press conference, he said go and see your GP about it, exactly what Dan Andrews said, don't take medical advice from a politician go to your GP.
The media are making a bad situation worse, they are not helping in any way, they are pushing their own agenda. Just like they do on most topics.