A response with the maturity and intelligence I anticipated. People only ever say things like that when they’re insecure in their stance and can’t bring themselves to agree publicly.

Once again the negotiators should be listening to their constituency. How about negotiating that no one is rostered a duty after 20:00 before an RDO? Pilots would preference lifestyle over payments for poor rostering practices.

Thats the way most pilots see it. What was wrong with the current system where if you checked your roster at the end of the duty and nothing was allocated then you effectively got another day off. The AVD was negotiated during the current EBA (the 2015 one) so why is it already being changed from a system that pilots were happy with? Its not just about the money. Don't forget what pilots have had to put up with for the 2 years of COVID.

I love the spin. If the PIA didn't happen then the agreement would have been signed before March 2020 and the 3% would have been locked in. QF Shorthaul got their 3%. Different issues but the evidence suggests that PIA was the difference. That and a willingness by their negotiators to get the job done and not beat their chests like the gorillas in Rwanda.

The AFAP and JQ management severely underestimate the level of resentment and animosity that the pilots have towards them. If this is such a good deal then of course it will be voted up but that is not how it is perceived out in the real world of operations. From what I hear on the flightdeck F/O's are tired of being talked at by their AFAP reps. You need to listen to those you purport to represent.

I think you mean the level of resentment that you and a couple of your mates have against them. Be careful how you generalise.

To suggest the PIA would have locked in a March 2020 EA is both highly speculative and I would suggest far from the truth. I think COVID actually saved us from what may have transpired after that little experiment.

Why are the AFAP reps not JQ pilots? Or are they just pilots with a differing POV to the majority? I don't get this statement that the AFAP is somehow responsible for what is a group negotiation that the majority of pilots should be involved with. Or is it a case that some pilots don't understand that they need to communicate their needs with the union to get results they want. The union should just be providing resources for the pilots to sort out their own EBA via their own pilot reps. All the EBAs I have been involved with the union is advised by the in house reps and assist negotiations as the workers fight for what they want. There will be always fringe dwellers that want something fantastical that won't happen but the majority will be happy, which is the purpose.

These sort of statements seem to be more management minded to seed division in the pilot body rather than be united behind the union.

FOI,

It would seem there have been several raw nerves exposed for you.

Abusing people because they express an opinion really does smack of desperation. Remember, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Just because you yell louder doesnt mean you are correct.

Perhaps wait for the road shows before you try to bludgeon your membership base with your diatribe regarding what we are worth. Your hard sell on this forum hasn't achieved much other than to highlight your identity.

Last time I looked you werent the moderator here. Lookleft really did nail it.

MCD

The AFAP did a comprehensive survey of members, as far as I can tell what has been included in the IPA reflects those survey results. Bearing in mind there are claims that may have been dropped because the cost of trade was too high.

I feel for the bargaining reps, like all things some of what you get over the line won’t appease everyone. Amongst us pilots it just seems some minorities can’t grapple with that concept and succumb to Chicken Little sky is falling tactics.

And that is the sort of logic that underpins this so called in principle agreement where the lack of a payrise is considered a good outcome. Unbelievable.

Most of the F/O's I fly with are either AFAP or ex-AFAP. In fact some of them prior to this document were some of the most supportive union pilots I have flown with. To paraphrase another historical figure "Its the lifestyle stoopid."

No yelling from me MCD, sorry you feel so oppressed and aggrieved.

Just because I can see the risk at play here with your reckless attempts to derail what has obviously been a long hard road to get here, doesn’t mean I have any personal investment as you allude to. I don’t know you, nor you me, probably best it stays that way.

I have reached my tolerance threshold regarding a noisy keyboard warrior minority advocating unjustified hatred and negativity when not armed with facts or reason. Hence I feel compelled to express my views to your contrary. That’s not abusing people, it is publicly calling you out for your attempts to derail this, which was largely going uncontested.

Lookleft, I just don’t think you understand how industrial relations work. Opportunity was lost and a tactical dice was rolled; now here’s the chance to make up for some lost ground. There’s no obligation of the company to meet us at where we think we should be through our lens of entitlement. It’s just business, and it appears to me the company has come along way in meeting us much closer to where we’d like to be through robust negotiation.

Members will come and go and opinions will fly everywhere, ops normal. I just want balance in assessment as it is so often the negative sentiment holders that are the noisiest in the room.

Lectures aside, lets get the vote on then.

That will be the real determiner of membership sentiment.

FOI I sincerely hope you are not involved in a union sence for all our sakes. By the tone of your post though Im assuming you are.

Sadly you provide a graphic insight as to the AFAPs contempt for their PAYING MEMBERS.

MCD

I swear some people at JQ have Stockholm syndrome. Only ever flown at REX and JQ with no idea what a real airline is like.
No one gives a **** anymore about the AFAP v AIPA bull****. Work together, figure it out and get a better deal for the group. If you can't do that go away and let the young ones at it. They don't care about your stupid grudges.
Everyone has always hated on management, but now that some are asking difficult questions of their union reps the AFAP are getting their knockers in a knot.

If thats your understanding of how the industrial relations system works then it is no wonder that Jetstar pilots are the laughing stock of the airline industry. For PIA to be effective then it needs to have a specific purpose and not be based "on a roll of the tactical dice" It also needs to be something the entire pilot body participates in, not just a few pilots who were unfortunate enough to be rostered on the weekend of PIA. BTW it all collapsed like a house of cards when the Company threatened a 7 day standown.

Is that what you call it. I call it the Company playing one off against the other and in the end it has worked. For a while it was good cop v bad cop with AIPA being the good cop and the AFAP being the bad cop if you kept track of the narrative coming from the CP. Now all of a sudden the AFAP have come up with this masterstroke and an in principle (an oxymoron when comes to JQ) agreement with AIPA effectively being shut out of negotiations. As long as the AFAP see AIPA as the enemy the Company will always be the beneficiary. From what I see of this agreement the Company are the major beneficiary. More contactable times, more free work on the Ipad during ODP and allowances based on flawed assumptions of what may or may not happen.

I wasn’t aware of the Institute of Public Affairs having a say in the matter.

Meanwhile in a country where the pilot union actually have some cohones, pilots are negotiating 20% payrises.

....But yes lets just be happy with a rise nearly 3% below inflation, and continue to have division between the workforce. What great collective bargaining that is going to achieve...

Unbelievable, it really is just a race to the bottom in this country.

Honestly mate some of these people have no idea what happens in the big world outside of Aus. It's sad we can't value ourselves. They are still going on about 89 or AFAP v AiPA or some other stupid thing. It's like a bunch of old men yelling at the clouds.

I still don't get it, if it's that bad it will get voted down. What does AFAP, AIPA or anyone else have to do with it, when the pilot body will either want it or not. The pilots will vote for it based on what each individual thinks and you move on, if it gets voted down, everyone needs to get together and work out what you want and work in unison towards it, otherwise you might end up with worse. If it gets voted up, then its done and dusted until next time, move on, the majority chose it. What other companies get, especially overseas is irrelevant, you fight for what you need here and now. In some cases the company will just stonewall and not progress, even with PIA, all depends on how much you want to fight for something. Any signs of disunity and the company will drive a wedge in to get traction.

There are those that are relying on facts and looking at things in the whole context (which I believe is the majority to be honest).

Then there are those that are seemingly determined to be miserable, angry and myopic no matter what’s put in front of them. Shut off from reality, even after an experience like COVID, too miserable to stay, yet too lazy/scared to go.

Want to live in the best country on Earth and earn more income than the majority of the population under an EBA that protects you in so many ways compared to other shift workers? Then get off Prune, ask some questions, do some maths (as I did) then form an educated opinion based on facts and reasonableness. If it’s in the negative, then that’s fine, but leave the reps alone, most out there ultimately have no idea what they do and at what personal expense comes at doing it.

Couldn't agree more or maybe thats not what your level 6 English meant to convey.

Yep keep drinking the Company supplied Kool Aid.

Who mentioned 89? The whole AFAP v AIPA thing is actually a thing and its why you haven't had a payrise since 2017 but sure blame it on the old blokes. Its the younger pilots who seem to be doing the most complaining though about what a crap deal is being served up.

Boom-tish

I have more than said my piece so I will leave it to others to discuss. As always the decision as to whether its going to get up will be left to those who actually work for Jetstar and not the rubber neckers who have put in their typically useless contributions.

Wow. Hasn’t this afternoon shown how they have misread the room and lost control of the narrative with that response. What an embarrassment this is.

It's a ******* joke...

I honestly believe that we need to start again..

@FOI it's not a good deal, it's not an excellent deal now it's 3%, it's an unknown deal, wait till you have the document before you make your mind up.