Oh dear, you really are naive.

Most other industries that have similar union density to that of pilots (maritime, mining and construction just to name a few), that have a significantly trained/educated skill level, get paid more to work less, have better conditions and have negotiated pay increases in line with or above inflation (generally with clauses that increase at a certain rate, or CPI if higher).

But sure, just keep squirting crap out to suit your narrative.

This EA is rapidly becoming a vote not only for working conditions for a pilot body but also a vote on the continued rellevance of the AFAP within the Australian airline landscape.

Get this one wrong again and you stand to lose a lot of PAYING MEMBERS.

After all, this EA is about the needs of Jetstar Pilots isn't it? It is certainly not about the needs of the AFAP. { See previous FOI posts. }

Fly safe.

MCD

As much As I don't like this deal (some things are okay, doesn't go far enough) and the constant bickering between the unions frustrates the hell out of me, I do feel a bit sorry for both unions. Do not underestimate how much hatred and anger there is amongst the pilot group for JQ. This is not just frustration or a dislike of a few management characters etc, this is 100% pure hatred for the company. They feel over worked, under paid, not respected anywhere near their pears at QF or link and they have had enough. There is zero good will left.

Unfortunately for the AFAP (did they not read the room?) Some of that is now being directed at them. This agreement does not match the expectations of many. They are upset and are voicing that. But, it was always going to be difficult to get their message across the rage and hatred.

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I do, because I still have to be engaged when I am signed off, also, its just another stone eroded away from condtions.

Copy, I do have my eye on the big picture and not short term money. How about you see the big picture and negotiate something better! rostered sign off by 17:00 or 19:00 before a DDO or AL and not 22:30 and not back on 05:00 two days later. you just keep thinking small and work your DDO for WDO for that extra money.

Good, thats something we really need to hold onto not pi$$ away for a few extra $$$

You say peak for WDO, you're obviously very deluded or in a very small base, ML, SY and BNE as far as I know have CAPT and FOs doing multiple WDO some I hear doing 10 a month all yr round.

As for the CPI argument, well we were the masters of our own demise 3 years ago in our actions. We put ourselves behind, sorry, that’s the reality. And the “what we should be on anyway “ argument, sorry but again that’s ridiculous. All the company has to do is satisfy the BOOT, they’re under no legal obligations here to do anything but that. This well exceeds the BOOT as far as I can tell.

If its good for the company, It is not good for us, thats how EBA work. considering the fast nature that this has been put forward there is background stuff that the company will be sneaking in that we will only realize when its to late. PIA I am against stop work that achieves nothing, something as simple as not working on DDO will slow things up alot, but then, we will need you to stop working DDO and by the sounds you would not.

The AFAP had a role to play in managing realistic expectations. Unfortunately, their leadership throughout this process in setting those expectations (through conduct and communications) is now coming back to bite.

Layover highline is worth 1% to narrowbody pilots on current layover hours, and 3% to widebody pilots on current layover hours. Most reasonable pilots can see layover hours are increasing at Jetstar. You wanted the iPad agreement back which would put everyone behind at least 3%. Vote NO if you think the LR's and XLR's aren't coming, or vote NO if you think they will be doing shark patrol up and down the east coast. I don't care why you want to vote NO, but I do want to know what your plan is if this agreement gets voted down.

Lookleft, do you even work for Jetstar?

What is it you want?

What are you going to do to get it?

You criticize the AFAP's PIA, yet have no logical plan for voting this agreement down. What is going to make the company give more? A sternly worded PA and red tie campaign?

Actually it's a 22.9% increase in base pay over the life of the agreement. On 1 July 2025 base pay will be 22.9% higher than it is today. Plus all the other stuff.

No there won't. There are nil extra standby days. It's still 3 below 75 hours.

If SYD, ADL or OOL crew miss curfew and then operate / pax home the next day, they get a full WDO. As far as I can tell, aircraft don't care if it's a curfew port before going tech. Also, if they are pushing curfew and still manage to land, but set the park brake after 2245 they will still get the 4 hrs hard credit as their sign off will be after 2300.

Are you positive on that? the company wants this, the union never squashed it, so stand-by for the document and see.



Maybe I am being to sceptical, it is all in the wording. Email from AFAP of the in principle 30/9/22 has "sign off" we all know the company we work for. Needs to be very clear with "sign on when a DDO was roster-ed and sign off occurs out of base before 23:00 the FCM to get at a full WDO payment and is rostered most direct flight to home base whether operating or paxing" just needs to be iron clad either way, otherwise they will play it as just sign off 22:30 day before and you're out of base have a DIL instead.


This is my concern, ppl just jumping at 2/5ths of f all money and giving away conditions which is all we have thinking its a pay rise when it is not,let be clear on that! it will be all in the wording and I guarantee it will favor the company to use the concessions in a much worse way than intended.

Qantas Group (Read JETSTAR incl) are on track for record profits in 2023.

The urgency to lock in this deal by the company is glaringly obvious..? Lock in these fools for another 3 years with no lifestyle provisions BEFORE this is announced.. Burn them out up into Asia in their new neos every week. Away from home life. Bosses enjoying their bonuses and kpi’s. No PIA over Xmas. Massive bonuses. High Fives.

The ‘negotiators’ deserve an Oscar for best acting in a drama series, and scaremongering.

Case in point, anyone who votes to approve this deal is signing away their future and the futures of the people who will be employed in years to come...

Jetstar is not a viable long term employment option.

Jetstar F/O here.

I'm looking at spending the next 25 years of my life flying planes.

I have a growing family with young kids at home.

I want to be able to afford them a decent middle-class living standard in an Australian capital city (where most Jetstar pilots are based by the way) AND I want to have enough free time to be able to see them growing up.

The proposed EBA does not fulfil these requirements so it's a NO vote for me.

Very simple decision.

As an F/O, what exactly were you expecting from the proposed agreement?
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.

By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.

You’ll be amazed at the realistic proposals that’ll suddenly appear with a NO vote and the threat of PIA over Xmas…

I’m not asking about the company, I’m asking what people were/are expecting?

The best thing about this job was the lack of time away from home base, the Optimiser has f&*ked that and changed the entire dynamic of this job. Any EBA needs some serious lifestyle provisions as the rosters generated by the optimiser are not sustainable.

Of course that is an option, but how did it work out last time compared to what was on the table at the time?

It is more a matter of what terms and conditions I expect from an airline I'm supposed to work for a quarter of a century or more without losing my health and/or family in the process.

Three basic items come to mind immediately:

1) lower EFA threshold. It should be 60-65 hours max;

2) minimum credit for standby during roster building. At the moment it is nil and it shouldn't be;

2) with the weird multi-day trips that the optimizer is spitting out without apparent regard for JBid and the arrival of the LRs and XLRs, there are going to be more and more overnights. There should be some rules around how many overnights can be rostered and how they should be spread around the crews, at least for the Airbus fleet.

Just my two cents

- A MUCH lower EFA with a REAL open time system…. Which, mind you, was supposed to have been negotiated under the current EBA.

- A complete redesign of the ridiculous leave system.

- JBID facilitating high density flying requests with resulting DFD’s. Currently JBID and the optimiser are programmed to provided minimum days off regardless of density preferences.

- The ability to formally bid IN for overnights or OUT. The people that want them aren’t getting enough, the people that don’t want them are getting to many.

- “Vacant” duties to be assigned within 2 hours. No more of this rubbish 3am phone call on just about EVERY standby because crewing are “keeping their options open”.

Well I am an enthusiastic YES voter. My Base Salary will be $246,765 at the end of the agreement which as has been pointed out isn’t that far away. Doing the overnights and hours I do now, which is as little work as possible I expect to earn $285,000. I don’t work any EFA and I’m not interested in WDOs so I don’t work any, and my lifestyle is all the better for it. If I get rostered crap, which is most times, I go fatigued generally on the last day of a run of 5 (early, early, late, late, late). FTG the last late and it turns my crap 3 days off recovery into 4 days and costs me zero. If Jetstar want to roster me crap, no problem, FTG and I make it their problem. I’ve never had a FTG day get nocked back. I get FO’s complaining all the time about how it shouldn’t be this way, I agree, but it is so why work yourself into a lather of worry when you can just use the fatigue procedures to make it their problem. We’re never in EFA so who cares if we drop hours. I don’t understand why pilots want a lower EFA threshold, it just puts more money at risk.



A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.