Meloz and 89
It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong..
Hi Kap M,
Just back from a trip, not avoiding you!!
As to your assertions re the pay of early joineew- returnees, I repeat Complete and utter crap!! .
I Have seen original copies of the contract (There was only one, all signed on to the same conditions) that was used in '89 and '90. from memory the base for a 737 Capt was about 119 000. my quote of my salary was to illustrate what some one earned after 12 years of pay rises!!! .
But OBVIOUSLY something that you heard from someone who heard it from someone trying to make a point is going to be more accurate than first hand information from someone who worked there for 11 years!!
Actually, you're right. To earn 385K, all it would have taken was for your theoretical FO to imediatley become a 767 Checkie and then fly 1700 hours for the year!! (our CAO limit was 900 at the time!!)
I'm prepared to accept that people may have different opinions, but to quote simply bull#### figures, then get all hurt when it is pointed out to you smacks of a bit of insecurity, nes pas?
Just back from a trip, not avoiding you!!
As to your assertions re the pay of early joineew- returnees, I repeat Complete and utter crap!! .
I Have seen original copies of the contract (There was only one, all signed on to the same conditions) that was used in '89 and '90. from memory the base for a 737 Capt was about 119 000. my quote of my salary was to illustrate what some one earned after 12 years of pay rises!!! .
But OBVIOUSLY something that you heard from someone who heard it from someone trying to make a point is going to be more accurate than first hand information from someone who worked there for 11 years!!
Actually, you're right. To earn 385K, all it would have taken was for your theoretical FO to imediatley become a 767 Checkie and then fly 1700 hours for the year!! (our CAO limit was 900 at the time!!)
I'm prepared to accept that people may have different opinions, but to quote simply bull#### figures, then get all hurt when it is pointed out to you smacks of a bit of insecurity, nes pas?
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Dear ANFO,
I for one would like clarification on the grey area of those who joined the two incumbent airlines between March 1990 and 1991.
Although you were politically correct to return after March 1990 is it not true if you didnt contact the two airlines prior to the "magic date" you wouldn't get a guernsey anyway. I have that on good authority being personally told that by one of the managers at the time. In his words "what a pity you didn't make contact with us, even a phone could would have sufficed". I believe there exists a group of pilots who lurk around just outside the "list" and profess not to have any involvement in the dispute. After all this time, admit exactly when you did make your application whether by telephone, or in writing. Or if you asked to put your application in the drawer until after the dust settled. I succinctly remember guys in the G.A. company I worked for getting the call up over vastly experienced turbo prop captains, who honourably did not contact the airlines during the protracted dispute. My thoughts are always with that group of gentlemen who still remain in G.A. to this day and are the true "victims" of this whole situation. I am personally sick to death of listening to all of the aforementioned "scabs" whining that they have not been handed jobs on a platter from the likes of Virgin, Emirates and Dragonair. I remember trying to obtain help from some of you in getting my job back but to no avail. The adage "what goes around comes around" appears particularly apt just now. Greybeard, I hope that you enjoyed your cake and the next time I am passing I look forward to a lamb roast. Cheers.
I for one would like clarification on the grey area of those who joined the two incumbent airlines between March 1990 and 1991.
Although you were politically correct to return after March 1990 is it not true if you didnt contact the two airlines prior to the "magic date" you wouldn't get a guernsey anyway. I have that on good authority being personally told that by one of the managers at the time. In his words "what a pity you didn't make contact with us, even a phone could would have sufficed". I believe there exists a group of pilots who lurk around just outside the "list" and profess not to have any involvement in the dispute. After all this time, admit exactly when you did make your application whether by telephone, or in writing. Or if you asked to put your application in the drawer until after the dust settled. I succinctly remember guys in the G.A. company I worked for getting the call up over vastly experienced turbo prop captains, who honourably did not contact the airlines during the protracted dispute. My thoughts are always with that group of gentlemen who still remain in G.A. to this day and are the true "victims" of this whole situation. I am personally sick to death of listening to all of the aforementioned "scabs" whining that they have not been handed jobs on a platter from the likes of Virgin, Emirates and Dragonair. I remember trying to obtain help from some of you in getting my job back but to no avail. The adage "what goes around comes around" appears particularly apt just now. Greybeard, I hope that you enjoyed your cake and the next time I am passing I look forward to a lamb roast. Cheers.
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Two points come to mind regarding 410’s comnet:
Firstly, if some of the ‘blow-in’ overseas pilots had falsified their log books so incredibly cleverly that AN and TN recruiters couldn’t see that they were ‘cooked’, they could have taken those same log books (and their ‘experience’) to any one of the dozens of airlines all over the world who snapped up literally hundreds of the ‘stay out’ Australians.
Secondly, since a pilot can’t fly in command of a commercial jet aircraft without a rating certificate, how do you falsify the date of issue on a US FAA rating certificate?
If what he said was in fact true, there is no way the Australian companies would not been aware of this unless all these individuals falsified their log books so well that the companies did not pick the fact up, which I find rather hard to accept.
Secondly, since a pilot can’t fly in command of a commercial jet aircraft without a rating certificate, how do you falsify the date of issue on a US FAA rating certificate?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Waterops - "Oh, I did make a few cowardly, late-night, abusive, anonymous phone calls...........WRONG.
Unlike the gutless, spineless individuals that found it necessary THEN, and NOW, to hide their actions and names, any telephone contact I had....sorry, ATTEMPTED to have - because the weak b@st@rds would never come to the phone themselves, hiding behind their wife, father, mother or answering machine.....any telephone contact I ATTEMPTED to have was preceded by my name, "This is ........ ....... calling."
I guess it really is hard for non-principled people such as yourself, Waterops, to realise that the majority of humans don`t let their world revolve around money. It was (wrongly) assuming that there were many more people - such as yourself - who would sell themselves for "30 pieces of silver", that gave Abeles and Hawke the incentive to try their luck
As HISTORY showed, only 22% of ALL the pilots involved demonstrated that they were GREED-driven.
Poor darlings - "SCAB" drawn in mashed potato, "SCAB" painted on a fence - what a TERRIBLE price to have to pay for being forced to accept rapid promotion and MASSIVE salary increases, whilst at the same time ACTIVELY working to PRECLUDE their former work colleagues from obtaining re-employment.
My heart BLEEDS for them.
Whilst the scabs were out buying new cars, and houses, those non-returnees were SELLING OFF many of their lifetime`s assets to maintain their ONLY HOME, or pay for their kids` education, medical and hospital expenses, etc.
However, Waterops, it would appear that the point I was making went completely over your head (why am I not surprised!), which was the FACT that the mashed potato in the STAFF canteen was pushed there NOT by an `89-er....it would have been impossible for any of us to gain access......but by another Ansett employee who also saw the scabs for WHAT they were.
Wiz - unless YOU are a scab, you were not privvy to the INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS being offered to previous Ansett pilots to lure them back.
If you ARE a scab, then I wouldn`t expect that you (and the rest of them) have changed over the past 13 years, and lies and deception are the basis of your daily dealings.
I have firsthand knowledge through MY accountant, as to what some of the early returnees were grossing!
(Edit) Posting between sectors sometimes means there`s not quite enough time to include everything I had initiallly intended. And so Wiz do I also have the NAMES of THREE Ansett "heroes" who made a point of telling `89ers how MUCH their 30 pieces of silver translated into Dolllars...and "NO, not through a friend of a friend of a friend", but FIRST HAND.
Two of the species were BNE based - one ended up as an Ansett 744 "Captain" (having returned as a junior f/o.....almost Number 1 BNE crawlback, from memory) and was subsequently fired after having been gaoled in Japan for shoplifting.
Another was a short, permanently imbibed, wa#ker, who`d been lucky with the stockmarket pre-`89 - he, in particular, made several `phone calls to a good mate of mine, trying to convince him to return with stories of "unbelievable salaries" and the guarantee of an immediate upgrade (my mate was an F27 Captain at the time).
The third cretin was still trying to rub salt into the wounds in the early `90`s. Seeing a couple of ex-AN, then SQ pilots in the simulator centre at Garden Drive, Melbourne, he tried to garner a reaction by calling out to them "Thanks for the pay rise!".
Unlike the gutless, spineless individuals that found it necessary THEN, and NOW, to hide their actions and names, any telephone contact I had....sorry, ATTEMPTED to have - because the weak b@st@rds would never come to the phone themselves, hiding behind their wife, father, mother or answering machine.....any telephone contact I ATTEMPTED to have was preceded by my name, "This is ........ ....... calling."
I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read that bit. PLEASE DON'T GIVE US THAT ABSOLUTE CRAP. Why can't you just admit you did it all because you wanted to win, you didn't want to have to leave for an overseas job (both good reasons) and because you were GREEDY. It was about MONEY. Admit it. Be a man.
As HISTORY showed, only 22% of ALL the pilots involved demonstrated that they were GREED-driven.
Do you really expect us to believe mashed potato is the worst thing you did or heard of being done to a scab?
My heart BLEEDS for them.
Whilst the scabs were out buying new cars, and houses, those non-returnees were SELLING OFF many of their lifetime`s assets to maintain their ONLY HOME, or pay for their kids` education, medical and hospital expenses, etc.
However, Waterops, it would appear that the point I was making went completely over your head (why am I not surprised!), which was the FACT that the mashed potato in the STAFF canteen was pushed there NOT by an `89-er....it would have been impossible for any of us to gain access......but by another Ansett employee who also saw the scabs for WHAT they were.
Wiz - unless YOU are a scab, you were not privvy to the INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS being offered to previous Ansett pilots to lure them back.
If you ARE a scab, then I wouldn`t expect that you (and the rest of them) have changed over the past 13 years, and lies and deception are the basis of your daily dealings.
I have firsthand knowledge through MY accountant, as to what some of the early returnees were grossing!
(Edit) Posting between sectors sometimes means there`s not quite enough time to include everything I had initiallly intended. And so Wiz do I also have the NAMES of THREE Ansett "heroes" who made a point of telling `89ers how MUCH their 30 pieces of silver translated into Dolllars...and "NO, not through a friend of a friend of a friend", but FIRST HAND.
Two of the species were BNE based - one ended up as an Ansett 744 "Captain" (having returned as a junior f/o.....almost Number 1 BNE crawlback, from memory) and was subsequently fired after having been gaoled in Japan for shoplifting.
Another was a short, permanently imbibed, wa#ker, who`d been lucky with the stockmarket pre-`89 - he, in particular, made several `phone calls to a good mate of mine, trying to convince him to return with stories of "unbelievable salaries" and the guarantee of an immediate upgrade (my mate was an F27 Captain at the time).
The third cretin was still trying to rub salt into the wounds in the early `90`s. Seeing a couple of ex-AN, then SQ pilots in the simulator centre at Garden Drive, Melbourne, he tried to garner a reaction by calling out to them "Thanks for the pay rise!".
Last edited by Kaptin M; 13th Sep 2002 at 12:19.
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The last post proves that 410’s opening comment in his very long post way back on page 2 or 3 remains all too true – passions still run high (or should that be ‘deep’?) for some over the events of 1989.
I don’t want to engage in the mud slinging, (there’s certainly been enough of that – in both directions), but simply make an observation: a number of ex-AN employees who became ‘ex’AN in 2001 have expressed outrage over the outspoken Amos ‘hijacking’ their thread announcing their get-togethers to commemorate the first anniversary of AN’s final demise.
I know – and believe it or not, understand – that emotions are running high for the people involved in the 2001 debacle as Sept 14th approaches. (I’m also sure there will some among the more recent ex-AN employees who will be quick to remind people like me of how very different they believe the circumstances to be of how the ‘2001-ers’ came to find themselves unemployed versus how the ‘89-ers’ came to find themselves in the same situation.)
It’s over the fact that I, (and I believe most ‘89-ers’), do understand your grief and bitterness that I wanted to make my point.
Anyone who would care to troll through my voluminous posts on this site on the subject of 1989 will eventually come across a comment along the lines of “You couldn’t really understand (1989) unless you were there, and the only way you ever will understand is to go through something similar yourself – and I pray for your sake you never understand.”
Unfortunately, thanks to the demise of AN twelve months ago, the rest of the hapless AN staff now perhaps do have some understanding of how deeply wounded many of the ‘89-ers’ felt as they saw jobs (that they valued no less than you valued yours) disappear. Please understand that the vast majority of the ‘89-ers’ wouldn’t have wished anything like that on any of the rest of the AN staff.
However, after reading many of the posts above, you’ll have to understand that for us, that sympathy could never extend to that small group of opportunists or turncoats who make up that group many of us have come to call with the thickest irony we can muster, ‘the heroes’.
I don’t want to engage in the mud slinging, (there’s certainly been enough of that – in both directions), but simply make an observation: a number of ex-AN employees who became ‘ex’AN in 2001 have expressed outrage over the outspoken Amos ‘hijacking’ their thread announcing their get-togethers to commemorate the first anniversary of AN’s final demise.
I know – and believe it or not, understand – that emotions are running high for the people involved in the 2001 debacle as Sept 14th approaches. (I’m also sure there will some among the more recent ex-AN employees who will be quick to remind people like me of how very different they believe the circumstances to be of how the ‘2001-ers’ came to find themselves unemployed versus how the ‘89-ers’ came to find themselves in the same situation.)
It’s over the fact that I, (and I believe most ‘89-ers’), do understand your grief and bitterness that I wanted to make my point.
Anyone who would care to troll through my voluminous posts on this site on the subject of 1989 will eventually come across a comment along the lines of “You couldn’t really understand (1989) unless you were there, and the only way you ever will understand is to go through something similar yourself – and I pray for your sake you never understand.”
Unfortunately, thanks to the demise of AN twelve months ago, the rest of the hapless AN staff now perhaps do have some understanding of how deeply wounded many of the ‘89-ers’ felt as they saw jobs (that they valued no less than you valued yours) disappear. Please understand that the vast majority of the ‘89-ers’ wouldn’t have wished anything like that on any of the rest of the AN staff.
However, after reading many of the posts above, you’ll have to understand that for us, that sympathy could never extend to that small group of opportunists or turncoats who make up that group many of us have come to call with the thickest irony we can muster, ‘the heroes’.
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Surely Wiley, one of the differences in your post is that you claim that AN staff of 2001 and 89ers jobs "disappeared" is that one group volunteered to resign and not go back to work and the others had no choice and had their jobs taken away from them
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downtheback ("had their jobs taken away from them")
Guess what happens when you make a cake with expensive bad eggs and then try and sell it.
Yes thats right, even though the other ingredients try their best it still tastes like S**T.
So the question is why did the other ingredients not try to stop it being made in the first place, Becuase eventually everybody could see that expensive cake will not survive on the shelf if some of the basic ingredients are bad.
You made your bed out of satin sheets now you lie on cotton, be thankfull you had it good for so long and can still afford cotton. Some people who "volunteered to resign and not go back to work" ended up on chaff bags. But boy could they make a good cake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wonder if in the past you might have quoted
"Let them eat cake"
Guess what happens when you make a cake with expensive bad eggs and then try and sell it.
Yes thats right, even though the other ingredients try their best it still tastes like S**T.
So the question is why did the other ingredients not try to stop it being made in the first place, Becuase eventually everybody could see that expensive cake will not survive on the shelf if some of the basic ingredients are bad.
You made your bed out of satin sheets now you lie on cotton, be thankfull you had it good for so long and can still afford cotton. Some people who "volunteered to resign and not go back to work" ended up on chaff bags. But boy could they make a good cake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wonder if in the past you might have quoted
"Let them eat cake"
Kap,
Interesting that you'd choose to believe what those guys said when it happened to agree with your view of the world. Ever consider they may have been pulling the pre-89 crowds collective chains with regards their earnings? I'm sure you wouldn't believe anything else JL told you (I had to fly with the guy, and I assure you I wouldn't!!).
When you started with your current employer, you signed an Individual Contract Right? But it's terms and conditions were the same for everyone who joined at the same time? Same deal AN and TN until the contract (Singular) became the basis for the new award. Everyone was on the same deal, the contract spelling out terms and conditions for each rank on each "Group" of types.
So if your accountant was told by another accountant (And him then telling you makes the info 4TH hand, not first!) that AN guys were making 385-420k (Now, you quoted Sky-pirates as saying some one got a 44% increase. High school math is a few decades in the past, but 44% isn;t 3 to 4 times now, is it?) then he was MIS-informed.
How do I know? Firstly it's public record as the contract became the AN award in 1990. My Best Man joined as a DE 767 FO in late '89, knew all your mentioned notables, and was later on the APA committee. I had dealings with EBA committees and can assure you the earning capabilities of everyone up to and including checkies was public record.(Now management! There's a different story!!)
I don't expect any of this to convince you. Someone told you something that re-enforced your hatred and bitterness, and I know nothing, including publishing group certificates (You'd be SURE they were fake!! Your accountants cousin swears they were!!) will change your mind.
As such I will not respond to any more of your posts ever.
If I feel the urge, I'll find a brick wall and talk to it. On the whole a lot more reseptive to alternate ideas and flexible in opinion.
Interesting that you'd choose to believe what those guys said when it happened to agree with your view of the world. Ever consider they may have been pulling the pre-89 crowds collective chains with regards their earnings? I'm sure you wouldn't believe anything else JL told you (I had to fly with the guy, and I assure you I wouldn't!!).
When you started with your current employer, you signed an Individual Contract Right? But it's terms and conditions were the same for everyone who joined at the same time? Same deal AN and TN until the contract (Singular) became the basis for the new award. Everyone was on the same deal, the contract spelling out terms and conditions for each rank on each "Group" of types.
So if your accountant was told by another accountant (And him then telling you makes the info 4TH hand, not first!) that AN guys were making 385-420k (Now, you quoted Sky-pirates as saying some one got a 44% increase. High school math is a few decades in the past, but 44% isn;t 3 to 4 times now, is it?) then he was MIS-informed.
How do I know? Firstly it's public record as the contract became the AN award in 1990. My Best Man joined as a DE 767 FO in late '89, knew all your mentioned notables, and was later on the APA committee. I had dealings with EBA committees and can assure you the earning capabilities of everyone up to and including checkies was public record.(Now management! There's a different story!!)
I don't expect any of this to convince you. Someone told you something that re-enforced your hatred and bitterness, and I know nothing, including publishing group certificates (You'd be SURE they were fake!! Your accountants cousin swears they were!!) will change your mind.
As such I will not respond to any more of your posts ever.
If I feel the urge, I'll find a brick wall and talk to it. On the whole a lot more reseptive to alternate ideas and flexible in opinion.
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KAPTAIN M
I've quietly sat on the side lines for a while,but now have to decided to make a contribution to this thread.
Don't forget the dispute was initated by us (AFAP) over money (29.3%,from memory).So your ranting and raving about greed is flawed.
I can clearly remember at a Fed meeting an obtained copy of the (new) AN contract being waved around and being told that there was no way this contract could be worked to.Interestingly none of us were allowed to peruse this obtained contract.But now people like yourself are claiming that it was a good Contract.
................so which is it Kaptain ?............
It was a good Contact,for the Company as well as Pilots.Personally I was well paid to do the same hours in that first year back as I did in the three years total prior.Certainly not a Contract that was completly unacceptable as we were led to believe.
Mashed Potato incidents were far from the worst harrasment received by returnees,in fact as a junior Pilot at the the time it disgusted me at what some of the non-returnees would do.A so called professional group with vindictive,callous("bleeding heart",hey Kap) acts such as I know that you are aware of,and how did I know about these acts?.Amazingly many of these people couldn't get back to the Fed office fast enough to boast of their actions.
Kaptain M, ...why is that your only reasoning for people returning is to solely benefit themselves over others?.Do remember in the February of that year when we held our one day stop work meeting,and we were told we may have to be prepared to strike for a month?.Well I do and I voted for it,then in August I then voted for protracted action as seen fit by the executive,but I never,never was going to give up a job I dreamed of,and worked hard for (just like you), for years, for bad decisions made by the AFAP!.As I said before I proudly walked into my AFAP office and announced of my intention to return,I even gave them the opportunity to talk me out of it by giving me an iron clad guarantee of a job back with Ansett,Guess what ?....
I and most like me whish the dispute never happened,intentions for greater than normal advancement were not the agenda as you would believe,(unless your accountant says so!!).
I like a lot of the hundreds of unemployed ex-Ansett Pilots are going through the process of disposing Assets to pay bills,something you may have had to do 13 years ago.The difference is you and your merry men are revelling in our (read all Ansett) loss.
How sad for you kaptain M.
I've quietly sat on the side lines for a while,but now have to decided to make a contribution to this thread.
Don't forget the dispute was initated by us (AFAP) over money (29.3%,from memory).So your ranting and raving about greed is flawed.
I can clearly remember at a Fed meeting an obtained copy of the (new) AN contract being waved around and being told that there was no way this contract could be worked to.Interestingly none of us were allowed to peruse this obtained contract.But now people like yourself are claiming that it was a good Contract.
................so which is it Kaptain ?............
It was a good Contact,for the Company as well as Pilots.Personally I was well paid to do the same hours in that first year back as I did in the three years total prior.Certainly not a Contract that was completly unacceptable as we were led to believe.
Mashed Potato incidents were far from the worst harrasment received by returnees,in fact as a junior Pilot at the the time it disgusted me at what some of the non-returnees would do.A so called professional group with vindictive,callous("bleeding heart",hey Kap) acts such as I know that you are aware of,and how did I know about these acts?.Amazingly many of these people couldn't get back to the Fed office fast enough to boast of their actions.
Kaptain M, ...why is that your only reasoning for people returning is to solely benefit themselves over others?.Do remember in the February of that year when we held our one day stop work meeting,and we were told we may have to be prepared to strike for a month?.Well I do and I voted for it,then in August I then voted for protracted action as seen fit by the executive,but I never,never was going to give up a job I dreamed of,and worked hard for (just like you), for years, for bad decisions made by the AFAP!.As I said before I proudly walked into my AFAP office and announced of my intention to return,I even gave them the opportunity to talk me out of it by giving me an iron clad guarantee of a job back with Ansett,Guess what ?....
I and most like me whish the dispute never happened,intentions for greater than normal advancement were not the agenda as you would believe,(unless your accountant says so!!).
I like a lot of the hundreds of unemployed ex-Ansett Pilots are going through the process of disposing Assets to pay bills,something you may have had to do 13 years ago.The difference is you and your merry men are revelling in our (read all Ansett) loss.
How sad for you kaptain M.
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Kaptin M,
We've occasionally agreed in the past, but on the issues of salaries, they never reached anywhere near what you quoted. I suggest that you, or whoever alleges he heard thise figures, was being wound up, and the accountants had their heads in their a***s. It's just not reality.
An A320 Captain, and I was one, never, NEVER, grossed more than $230K, and that was only in the last full year of operation. The shoplifter may have reached $270 - $280K, but NEVER more.
The hourly rate multiplied by 1000, and an added month for holidays simply couldn't give a higher figure, and that's assuming that he actually flew maximum hours which few did.
Sometimes your posts are good, but when you run off at the mouth with figures such as these, you lose credibility totally, just as you do with the scab rhetoric.
Keep it clean; keep it factual; keep it nice, and people will listen. Post as you just have, and most will think you're a ********; those who were in doubt will have it confirmed.
We've occasionally agreed in the past, but on the issues of salaries, they never reached anywhere near what you quoted. I suggest that you, or whoever alleges he heard thise figures, was being wound up, and the accountants had their heads in their a***s. It's just not reality.
An A320 Captain, and I was one, never, NEVER, grossed more than $230K, and that was only in the last full year of operation. The shoplifter may have reached $270 - $280K, but NEVER more.
The hourly rate multiplied by 1000, and an added month for holidays simply couldn't give a higher figure, and that's assuming that he actually flew maximum hours which few did.
Sometimes your posts are good, but when you run off at the mouth with figures such as these, you lose credibility totally, just as you do with the scab rhetoric.
Keep it clean; keep it factual; keep it nice, and people will listen. Post as you just have, and most will think you're a ********; those who were in doubt will have it confirmed.
Last edited by KaptinZZ; 14th Sep 2002 at 05:44.
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The Birth of myth!
ICO 330, I have read your post several times now. I am really not sure how to commence answering your demands that I "admit exactly when you did make your application whether by telephone, or in writing. Or if you asked to put your application in the drawer until after the dust settled." When you phrase things this way, it makes me think that you have probably made up your mind that I somehow was up to something sinister and given the tone of your question(if that is the tone that you intended), I will not answer it.(A bit like me perhaps demanding that you admit to when you stopped beating your wife, no?). As for the assertion that "after March 1990 is it not true if you didnt contact the two airlines prior to the "magic date" you wouldn't get a guernsey anyway." This is demonstrably not true. I was talking to an ex-collegue (an Group 2 capt) who started in late '90and says that he should have a good chance at Emirates because he has a dated letter from Alf Gloster acknowleging his initial application. This letter is dated July '90. It is probably true that there were some in GA who were calling up the airlines every 5 mins during the dispute, but I have no evidence to support such a conclusion. I didn;t myself and have heard of no-one doing so.That you "...have that on good authority being personally told that by one of the managers at the time. In his words "what a pity you didn't make contact with us, even a phone could would have sufficed" may not mean anything, Perhaps they didn't like your application or for some other reason you( or your collegues on turbo-props) did not meet the required profile of the time. (This shouldn't been seen as a personal failing.If your handle reflects your current type, then you haven't done badly in the long run). I hope that the evidence that I can present (the friends letter) clarifies the issue for you regarding your suspision that only people who were in contact with the Airlines during the period Sept '89 to March '90 were employed during '90- '91. I myself know that this is not true.
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And the real ongoing tragety of all this is that some of those who did $cab for TN have ultimately been rewarded with ongoing career progression via the A330 and ultimately (as seniority allows) with commands on the B747-400 in QF
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Well now, we are nearly at 100 posts so the course is probably nearly run.
As the almost starter of this one, just a few words toward the end.
The list?? As SOPS has said who needs it, we know who our friends are anyway.
347 of the group were at least able to join our old employers and accept the "Paint Job" of being a person of a particular colour, there are a few of 1990 vintage who surely have some serious over-spray on their coats.
Both lots accepted the really putrid document to not allow "loved" and "pre-loved" Pilots to be in the same cockpit on "safety" grounds.
That is actually the bit that sticks in my throat, you nicked my job and then set about ensuring that I could never work in Aust again, just to make sure the theft could never be reversed.
The wheels fell of half the situation, behold and lo, we were supposed to be "mates" and accept you into the wide, wide world of Aviation again.
BULLSH*T, it was "unsafe" then and what has changed, you need a job that's all.
Some have a job, some will get one and some will never work in Aviation again,
Same Sh*t, different year.
The Pay, I got 100K the last year in Ansett, the new scales allowing for a few wrong figures published in haste, were double in round figures. 30%???, just 30 bits of Silver, at least the original receiver had the Balls to own up.
Just a question, how much financial support from your Q mates is flowing to help you keep your yachts, BMWs etc?
We put 100K on the street in the "Western Approaches" to help prevent loss of houses etc.
A little story to finish.
She who is obeyed and I were shopping at a centre nearby, went our ways and re-met for the coffee 'n cake as mentioned.
Said She "Don't look around, but a bunch of "347ers" are in that coffee house"
They were, but the rub is, spotted a wife first she did, had the feeling it was a "347" type one and observed the group until I came along.
She did not know anyone of that group, EVER, before seeing them that day.
You and yours have an "aurora" that was spotted 13 years later by a complete stranger to that group involved.
A list? Nah not necessary.
Sui generis.
As the almost starter of this one, just a few words toward the end.
The list?? As SOPS has said who needs it, we know who our friends are anyway.
347 of the group were at least able to join our old employers and accept the "Paint Job" of being a person of a particular colour, there are a few of 1990 vintage who surely have some serious over-spray on their coats.
Both lots accepted the really putrid document to not allow "loved" and "pre-loved" Pilots to be in the same cockpit on "safety" grounds.
That is actually the bit that sticks in my throat, you nicked my job and then set about ensuring that I could never work in Aust again, just to make sure the theft could never be reversed.
The wheels fell of half the situation, behold and lo, we were supposed to be "mates" and accept you into the wide, wide world of Aviation again.
BULLSH*T, it was "unsafe" then and what has changed, you need a job that's all.
Some have a job, some will get one and some will never work in Aviation again,
Same Sh*t, different year.
The Pay, I got 100K the last year in Ansett, the new scales allowing for a few wrong figures published in haste, were double in round figures. 30%???, just 30 bits of Silver, at least the original receiver had the Balls to own up.
Just a question, how much financial support from your Q mates is flowing to help you keep your yachts, BMWs etc?
We put 100K on the street in the "Western Approaches" to help prevent loss of houses etc.
A little story to finish.
She who is obeyed and I were shopping at a centre nearby, went our ways and re-met for the coffee 'n cake as mentioned.
Said She "Don't look around, but a bunch of "347ers" are in that coffee house"
They were, but the rub is, spotted a wife first she did, had the feeling it was a "347" type one and observed the group until I came along.
She did not know anyone of that group, EVER, before seeing them that day.
You and yours have an "aurora" that was spotted 13 years later by a complete stranger to that group involved.
A list? Nah not necessary.
Sui generis.
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When this thread opened, I was hoping it might avoid the usual traps and actually be informative for those who are too young to have been there or remember. However – predictably – it ended up going in pretty much the same direction as earlier threads on the subject, with people on both sides becoming bogged down in minutiae and personal agendas. On one side, we’ve had the old chestnut of just how big each of the thirty pieces of silver really were, (who really gives a damn whether it was 50% or 400% more – te fact is, it was substantially more than the Union was asking for in its ambit claim, and spare me the old chestnut that you had to work harder to earn it.) On the other, we had ANFO aggrieved because one small group of intemperate stay-outers called him a nasty name – and therefore, all stay-outers are really nasty people.
However, despite that, there were a few gems in amongst the dross, and I hope that those who opened this thread to learn, rather than to reinforce a fixed preconception about the events of 1989-90, (like I did!), managed to sort the wheat from the chaff.
I’d like to join one of the very earlier posters in saying it’s a shame ‘Brisboy’ hasn’t added his tuppence worth to the renewed debate. I found his comments on earlier threads regarding 89 among the most lucid and unemotive of any arguments on both sides.
Oh, and it’s worth noting that ‘Wiley’ in his last post was spot on in his prediction that someone wouldn’t be able to resist pointing out the difference they perceived in the way those who lost their jobs in 1989 differed from those so similarly affected in 2001. In case it needs spelling out, 2001-ers, I believe ‘Wiley’ was trying to say that, disregarding any differences you may perceive on that point, the 89-ers really do understand the sense of loss the 2001-ers felt and continue to feel. The big difference was that you have the sympathy of the nation. Rightly or wrongly, we had anything but.
The ‘list’ certainly exists, and I believe it will continue to exist until the almost last player in the events of 89 is dead and buried, but I think anyone who believes that overseas airlines in search of pilots would take any notice of any such unofficial document is searching for excuses as to why he failed to get a job. And if any heroes are still feeling aggrieved about ‘the list’, consider this - at least you don’t have a sorry excuse of a Prime Monster adding your names to an official international list of political dissidents.
However, despite that, there were a few gems in amongst the dross, and I hope that those who opened this thread to learn, rather than to reinforce a fixed preconception about the events of 1989-90, (like I did!), managed to sort the wheat from the chaff.
I’d like to join one of the very earlier posters in saying it’s a shame ‘Brisboy’ hasn’t added his tuppence worth to the renewed debate. I found his comments on earlier threads regarding 89 among the most lucid and unemotive of any arguments on both sides.
Oh, and it’s worth noting that ‘Wiley’ in his last post was spot on in his prediction that someone wouldn’t be able to resist pointing out the difference they perceived in the way those who lost their jobs in 1989 differed from those so similarly affected in 2001. In case it needs spelling out, 2001-ers, I believe ‘Wiley’ was trying to say that, disregarding any differences you may perceive on that point, the 89-ers really do understand the sense of loss the 2001-ers felt and continue to feel. The big difference was that you have the sympathy of the nation. Rightly or wrongly, we had anything but.
The ‘list’ certainly exists, and I believe it will continue to exist until the almost last player in the events of 89 is dead and buried, but I think anyone who believes that overseas airlines in search of pilots would take any notice of any such unofficial document is searching for excuses as to why he failed to get a job. And if any heroes are still feeling aggrieved about ‘the list’, consider this - at least you don’t have a sorry excuse of a Prime Monster adding your names to an official international list of political dissidents.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
I admit I made a MISTAKE.
The figures I quoted earlier on - and that have been the cause of not a little dissent - were NOT Australian Dollars, but Singapore, when the exchange rate was around the AUD1 = SGD1.46 (mid-late 1990).
The reason being that at that time I and the fellow who was being pestered by the little Wa#ker to join him as a scab, were both in SQ mode, and were comparing the salaries we would receive vs those we could have received.
The $385K-$420K that I erroneously cited converted back then to Aussie Dollars to approx. $260K-$285 - and from that I WON'T budge!
And certainly that WAS a 3-4 fold INCREASE for the 737 f/o's that went back and were almost immediately upgraded to "captains".
HAD THE DISPUTE BEEN ONLY ABOUT "GREEDY PILOTS WANTING MORE MONEY", IT WOULD HAVE ALL BEEN OVER WHEN THE CONTRACTS WERE FIRST OFFERED!
And to backtrack a little, ANFO your story of the dogsh!t with broken glass sounds good at first read, but then a few questions really need answering to determine how TRUE (or feasible) it might be.
Where was the car parked, when this incident occurred? It would have been impossible to have tampered with it when it was parked in the staff car park. And had it been at his house, I'm certain it would have been locked away in a garage.
And who made up this delightful mix - scooped up the dog poo, mixed in the broken glass, and then pushed it under the door handle, without cutting his OWN fingers (let alone putting up with the stink!)?
And to the story of the eggs being thrown over a wall (?) at the Hammo Hotel...actually when I read this one on another thread, it purportedly occurred in Melbourne!!......
How do you know it was '89-ers who did it? Or are we now responsible for EVERYTHING that happens to our sensitive scabs?
The so called "incidents" that were reported during the Dispute were listed with dates and times, and just co-incidentally I happen to have the list.
Many were plain bs, such as the names of a dozen or so pilots seen at the airport "distributing brochures", or "taking notes".
Others report events such as "answering machine recording male voice saying 'You're nothing but a @#*>ing scab' ".
"SCAB painted on xxxxxxx' fence".
"SCAB written with weedkiller on the lawn of xxxxxxx"
"Capt 'Lightfinger's' wife was asked "Where's your husband? He's nothing but a scab. Why doesn't he write it on his forehead."
The "worst" description of a property damage incident that was OFFICIALLY DOCUMENTED was yellow paint thrown over a car.
Much of the rest that is (and was) ASSERTED as happening, is - I believe - FABRICATED to try to achieve SYMPATHY! Furthermore, I don't believe that ANY '89-ers were charged with any of the alleged incidents.
The FACT is NO-ONE suffered any physical abuse (although ANFO claims that HE came close to it).
The figures I quoted earlier on - and that have been the cause of not a little dissent - were NOT Australian Dollars, but Singapore, when the exchange rate was around the AUD1 = SGD1.46 (mid-late 1990).
The reason being that at that time I and the fellow who was being pestered by the little Wa#ker to join him as a scab, were both in SQ mode, and were comparing the salaries we would receive vs those we could have received.
The $385K-$420K that I erroneously cited converted back then to Aussie Dollars to approx. $260K-$285 - and from that I WON'T budge!
And certainly that WAS a 3-4 fold INCREASE for the 737 f/o's that went back and were almost immediately upgraded to "captains".
HAD THE DISPUTE BEEN ONLY ABOUT "GREEDY PILOTS WANTING MORE MONEY", IT WOULD HAVE ALL BEEN OVER WHEN THE CONTRACTS WERE FIRST OFFERED!
And to backtrack a little, ANFO your story of the dogsh!t with broken glass sounds good at first read, but then a few questions really need answering to determine how TRUE (or feasible) it might be.
Where was the car parked, when this incident occurred? It would have been impossible to have tampered with it when it was parked in the staff car park. And had it been at his house, I'm certain it would have been locked away in a garage.
And who made up this delightful mix - scooped up the dog poo, mixed in the broken glass, and then pushed it under the door handle, without cutting his OWN fingers (let alone putting up with the stink!)?
And to the story of the eggs being thrown over a wall (?) at the Hammo Hotel...actually when I read this one on another thread, it purportedly occurred in Melbourne!!......
How do you know it was '89-ers who did it? Or are we now responsible for EVERYTHING that happens to our sensitive scabs?
The so called "incidents" that were reported during the Dispute were listed with dates and times, and just co-incidentally I happen to have the list.
Many were plain bs, such as the names of a dozen or so pilots seen at the airport "distributing brochures", or "taking notes".
Others report events such as "answering machine recording male voice saying 'You're nothing but a @#*>ing scab' ".
"SCAB painted on xxxxxxx' fence".
"SCAB written with weedkiller on the lawn of xxxxxxx"
"Capt 'Lightfinger's' wife was asked "Where's your husband? He's nothing but a scab. Why doesn't he write it on his forehead."
The "worst" description of a property damage incident that was OFFICIALLY DOCUMENTED was yellow paint thrown over a car.
Much of the rest that is (and was) ASSERTED as happening, is - I believe - FABRICATED to try to achieve SYMPATHY! Furthermore, I don't believe that ANY '89-ers were charged with any of the alleged incidents.
The FACT is NO-ONE suffered any physical abuse (although ANFO claims that HE came close to it).