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Wizofoz
Interesting suggestion but if you check the media and IRC records of the time you will discover the AFAP President offered on 6 occasions to return to work on the previous contract for a mutually aggreed cooling off period then start negotiations on the matter. And how many times did he also state on the media "All we want to do is negotiate". The Companies in fact refused to respond until almost years end when the companies only response after the many offers was to say it was "to little to late".
As far as the suggestion about honouring the contract. The contract had been expired in AAL for some time and negotiations for its renewal were stopped by ????? guess who. Someone who wanted an "Industry award", the same someone who did not want this some years earlier.
It was not the AFAP that cancelled the contracts was it?
It was not the AFAP that would not negotiate was it?
It was not the AFAP that shutdown the domestic airline system was it?
It was not the AFAP that "stood aside" the pilot workforce was it?
It was not the AFAP that illegally imported foreign pilots was it?
It was not the AFAP that broke the constitution and used the military was it?
It was not the AFAP that declared war was it?
It was not the AFAP that ....and so on ... the list is long isn't it?
BAE146... sorry but your "facts" are not that factual....its this "rewriting og history" that will not succeed as fortunately the truth will in the long term prevail.
"the first casualty in any war is TRUTH" ... is this ever so true, I sat beside a certain reporter from "The Sun", we discussed many things, the following day what was printed in the paper made me wonder if we were sitting in the same IRC hearing. When I confronted the reporter the next day he defended himself by saying that what was written was what the airlines wanted. I said "what about the truth?"...all he did was shrug his shoulders.
WE WILL REMEMBER
Interesting suggestion but if you check the media and IRC records of the time you will discover the AFAP President offered on 6 occasions to return to work on the previous contract for a mutually aggreed cooling off period then start negotiations on the matter. And how many times did he also state on the media "All we want to do is negotiate". The Companies in fact refused to respond until almost years end when the companies only response after the many offers was to say it was "to little to late".
As far as the suggestion about honouring the contract. The contract had been expired in AAL for some time and negotiations for its renewal were stopped by ????? guess who. Someone who wanted an "Industry award", the same someone who did not want this some years earlier.
It was not the AFAP that cancelled the contracts was it?
It was not the AFAP that would not negotiate was it?
It was not the AFAP that shutdown the domestic airline system was it?
It was not the AFAP that "stood aside" the pilot workforce was it?
It was not the AFAP that illegally imported foreign pilots was it?
It was not the AFAP that broke the constitution and used the military was it?
It was not the AFAP that declared war was it?
It was not the AFAP that ....and so on ... the list is long isn't it?
BAE146... sorry but your "facts" are not that factual....its this "rewriting og history" that will not succeed as fortunately the truth will in the long term prevail.
"the first casualty in any war is TRUTH" ... is this ever so true, I sat beside a certain reporter from "The Sun", we discussed many things, the following day what was printed in the paper made me wonder if we were sitting in the same IRC hearing. When I confronted the reporter the next day he defended himself by saying that what was written was what the airlines wanted. I said "what about the truth?"...all he did was shrug his shoulders.
WE WILL REMEMBER
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well well well,
The old chestnuts are out and about again.
THE LIST IS THE LIST.
IF YOU ARE ON IT, YOU ARE ON IT
It's as much of the history as any or all of the comments above.
It was used per se to exclude non listers in the main from Aussie jobs, it may well have reared it's ugly head again to their disadvantage this time.
As I recall the listees volunteered to be elligible, were advised/councelled/requested not to place themselves in that area.
All of us have to accept responsibility for our actions, we all dine at the "Table of consequence".
If the table is bare now,
TUFF TITTIES.
It takes 40 muscles to frown, 4 to raise middle finger and it really is a lazy Sunday
C YA
The old chestnuts are out and about again.
THE LIST IS THE LIST.
IF YOU ARE ON IT, YOU ARE ON IT
It's as much of the history as any or all of the comments above.
It was used per se to exclude non listers in the main from Aussie jobs, it may well have reared it's ugly head again to their disadvantage this time.
As I recall the listees volunteered to be elligible, were advised/councelled/requested not to place themselves in that area.
All of us have to accept responsibility for our actions, we all dine at the "Table of consequence".
If the table is bare now,
TUFF TITTIES.
It takes 40 muscles to frown, 4 to raise middle finger and it really is a lazy Sunday
C YA
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BAE146, reference your 'facts' (!) post: let me hazard a wild guess here... you went back in.... Otcober by any chance, after the (first I've heard of it) AFAP 'capitulation' in that month?
One of the many 'facts' quoted by sightboard run in his post I can't let pass without comment if only because it's so damed ridiculous, is the allegation that
Question, sightboard run, (assuming, as it seems to me you are, that you are inferring that the non-returee pilots were the culprits: how in the world did 'non-returnee' pilots get anywhere near the flight decks of aircraft operated by the heroes post Aug 24?
I'm assuming (always a trap, I accept) that you were a late joiner to AN and I'm further assuming that you have swallowed the self-serving nonesense fed to you by the more senior pilots in the company as they attempted to rationalise the unrationalisable - their own behaviour in blowing in or going back.
One of the many 'facts' quoted by sightboard run in his post I can't let pass without comment if only because it's so damed ridiculous, is the allegation that
...items left/interfered with in cockpits on turn-arounds...
I'm assuming (always a trap, I accept) that you were a late joiner to AN and I'm further assuming that you have swallowed the self-serving nonesense fed to you by the more senior pilots in the company as they attempted to rationalise the unrationalisable - their own behaviour in blowing in or going back.
short flights long nights
Well, well, we are off and running again, aren't we gentleman?
All this talk of lists, I mean who really cares if there really is a "list" or not. At the risk of repeating myself from another thread, let me add my thoughts.
After the envents of 89, Ansett decided who it did and did not want to employ, as was their right. The flight department management decided what the required standard was, and went about employing those people who met that required standard, as was their job.
The fact that nearly all pilots that had been previously employed by Ansett, when thy reapplied for their jobs (under the direction of the AFAP), were told that they were no longer considered suitable by the company, may seem strange to some, but that was Ansett's right, to employ who ever they wanted. The fact that they had a large group of pilots, that had allready passed all slection criteria, had been trained to company standards, and were all fully quailified on aircraft in the company's fleet, and had displayed their willingness to work for the company by re-applying for their old job back (when directed by their union), the fact that nearly all of these pilot applications were ignored by the company, as I said, may seem strange to some, but that was the right of Ansett.
Many of these same pilots, then went overseas, gained even more qualifications and experience, and some (but not all) kept re-applying to their old Australian employer for a job. I venture to say that everyone of them was not successful (but please correct me if I am wrong). To ignore these people, again may seem strange to some, but again it was Ansetts right to do it.
I am sure that when asked about all of this, "do you have a list of Ex pilots from 89 who you wont employ?" Ansett would have said "No of course not, we are just applying our own selection criteria to each applicant"
So lets go forward to 2002. Some pilots have found them selves out of work, and feel that a "list" is influencing descions made by airlines about who they empoly. They think that because they are current, trained to a (what was until recently) major airlines standards, and in many cases have flown the aircraft that the airline they are applying to is currently operating, that they should be a sure bet for a job. I dont think so.............
All the airlines out there in the world have their own Selection Criteria. Each is different in each airline, depending on the airlines own "culture", and the social cuture of the country where the airline is based. Also many good airlines will take imput from current employees about what the employees feel about the current selection criterias, and how they could be improved. This reults in an overall "makeup" of a required candidate, and the most important thing is "will this person fit into our airline"
If airline ABC decides that a certain person won't fit in with them. I am sure it has nothing to do with any list, they are just applying their own Selection Criteria to an individual applicant, that is their right. Just as it was Ansett's right to apply their own individual Selection criteria to applicants for pilot positions to their airline.
Just because a person meet AN's criteria, it is no sure thing that they will meet airline ABC's, DEF's, or EFG. It doesn't take any list to make this happen, its just the way it is.
Greybeard, I pause for thought................
All this talk of lists, I mean who really cares if there really is a "list" or not. At the risk of repeating myself from another thread, let me add my thoughts.
After the envents of 89, Ansett decided who it did and did not want to employ, as was their right. The flight department management decided what the required standard was, and went about employing those people who met that required standard, as was their job.
The fact that nearly all pilots that had been previously employed by Ansett, when thy reapplied for their jobs (under the direction of the AFAP), were told that they were no longer considered suitable by the company, may seem strange to some, but that was Ansett's right, to employ who ever they wanted. The fact that they had a large group of pilots, that had allready passed all slection criteria, had been trained to company standards, and were all fully quailified on aircraft in the company's fleet, and had displayed their willingness to work for the company by re-applying for their old job back (when directed by their union), the fact that nearly all of these pilot applications were ignored by the company, as I said, may seem strange to some, but that was the right of Ansett.
Many of these same pilots, then went overseas, gained even more qualifications and experience, and some (but not all) kept re-applying to their old Australian employer for a job. I venture to say that everyone of them was not successful (but please correct me if I am wrong). To ignore these people, again may seem strange to some, but again it was Ansetts right to do it.
I am sure that when asked about all of this, "do you have a list of Ex pilots from 89 who you wont employ?" Ansett would have said "No of course not, we are just applying our own selection criteria to each applicant"
So lets go forward to 2002. Some pilots have found them selves out of work, and feel that a "list" is influencing descions made by airlines about who they empoly. They think that because they are current, trained to a (what was until recently) major airlines standards, and in many cases have flown the aircraft that the airline they are applying to is currently operating, that they should be a sure bet for a job. I dont think so.............
All the airlines out there in the world have their own Selection Criteria. Each is different in each airline, depending on the airlines own "culture", and the social cuture of the country where the airline is based. Also many good airlines will take imput from current employees about what the employees feel about the current selection criterias, and how they could be improved. This reults in an overall "makeup" of a required candidate, and the most important thing is "will this person fit into our airline"
If airline ABC decides that a certain person won't fit in with them. I am sure it has nothing to do with any list, they are just applying their own Selection Criteria to an individual applicant, that is their right. Just as it was Ansett's right to apply their own individual Selection criteria to applicants for pilot positions to their airline.
Just because a person meet AN's criteria, it is no sure thing that they will meet airline ABC's, DEF's, or EFG. It doesn't take any list to make this happen, its just the way it is.
Greybeard, I pause for thought................
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FUBAAR
You're right about one thing, assuming anything not mentioned on a medium like this IS a trap. you know what they say...
Maybe I should've been more specific but the actions I mentioned ("items left in cockpits...", etc) are not FACTS I can prove, they are merely the one-sided version of events I heard about from time to time, as a late-joiner, which you were right about.
No, I didn't simply swallow it BUT it's a bit hard to hear from the "other side" when they were all overseas. I guess history is written by the "victor", and I use the term loosely.
How did they get near the aircraft, how the hell should I know? I can't be bothered listing all the things I heard of being done to intimidate scabs but I do know that what they described going through was comparable to what greybeard describes his family being exposed to. Naturally, I didn't hear anyone admitting to dishing out this kind of behaviour in my few years in AN but nonetheless, it was all pretty sh!tty stuff.
Maybe a "professional pilot" is not too much different to a wharfie? Would I behave the same way in that situation? I hope not but with any luck, I'll never have to find out.
What I WOULD like, though, is to hear someone prominent on EACH side denounce those actions for what they were.
Any takers? KM, PV, TTT, did I miss anyone?
Maybe I should've been more specific but the actions I mentioned ("items left in cockpits...", etc) are not FACTS I can prove, they are merely the one-sided version of events I heard about from time to time, as a late-joiner, which you were right about.
No, I didn't simply swallow it BUT it's a bit hard to hear from the "other side" when they were all overseas. I guess history is written by the "victor", and I use the term loosely.
How did they get near the aircraft, how the hell should I know? I can't be bothered listing all the things I heard of being done to intimidate scabs but I do know that what they described going through was comparable to what greybeard describes his family being exposed to. Naturally, I didn't hear anyone admitting to dishing out this kind of behaviour in my few years in AN but nonetheless, it was all pretty sh!tty stuff.
Maybe a "professional pilot" is not too much different to a wharfie? Would I behave the same way in that situation? I hope not but with any luck, I'll never have to find out.
What I WOULD like, though, is to hear someone prominent on EACH side denounce those actions for what they were.
Any takers? KM, PV, TTT, did I miss anyone?
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To the supporters ( of the likes of SOPS, greybeard, Kap M, Rabbit, 2X2 and the rest that perpetuate this nonsence) of the AFAP action of 1989...here is a quote from one of your stalwarts...that is still on a web site...and I by the way, have a copy of "THE LIST"....
"....On the 18th of August 1989, the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP) embarked on an industrial campain ostensibly in support of a 29.47% pay claim. As part of this campaign, AFAP Pilots imposed on their employers (Ansett, East West, Ipec, and Australian Airlines) a limitation on the hours they were prepared to work in the form of only making themselves available for flying duties within the normal office working hours of 9am to 5pm.
This action precipitated one of the worst and most expensive industrial disputes in Australia's history, now known as the [PILOTS DISPUTE] of 1989.
The Dispute has been conservatively estimated to have cost the Australian economy well over a billion dollars and resulted in the loss of many thousands of jobs associated with the demise of the many businesses indirectly affected.
The Dispute was a significant factor causing Australia to plunge into recession nearly two years earlier than it's trading partners during the early 1990's.................."
So where the hell do you people that support this action come from!!...who the hell are you to do this!!!...who the hell gives you the right to cause such havoc!!!!...and thats what you have forgotten!!!...........IT WAS NOT YOUR TRAIN SET!!!...but somehow you have set yourselves up as Judge and Jury and you still don't see the wood for the trees...everybody was against you, you are employees, you shall do as requested, if you don't like it!!!! you can withdraw your labour and go away!!!...........and some of your collegues could take no more and had a higher sense of duty to family and company, and went back to work, so in your failure, you take it out on them in a gutless act............. in the form of "THE LIST"...
You would have been better at being unionist on a building site, not airline pilots...as was described to me once "Norm Gallagher and his cronies, that could fly aeroplanes...The flying BLF"....you people are a disgrace to use LISTS to stop others to get work for the dreadful mess you created in Australia...............
"....On the 18th of August 1989, the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP) embarked on an industrial campain ostensibly in support of a 29.47% pay claim. As part of this campaign, AFAP Pilots imposed on their employers (Ansett, East West, Ipec, and Australian Airlines) a limitation on the hours they were prepared to work in the form of only making themselves available for flying duties within the normal office working hours of 9am to 5pm.
This action precipitated one of the worst and most expensive industrial disputes in Australia's history, now known as the [PILOTS DISPUTE] of 1989.
The Dispute has been conservatively estimated to have cost the Australian economy well over a billion dollars and resulted in the loss of many thousands of jobs associated with the demise of the many businesses indirectly affected.
The Dispute was a significant factor causing Australia to plunge into recession nearly two years earlier than it's trading partners during the early 1990's.................."
So where the hell do you people that support this action come from!!...who the hell are you to do this!!!...who the hell gives you the right to cause such havoc!!!!...and thats what you have forgotten!!!...........IT WAS NOT YOUR TRAIN SET!!!...but somehow you have set yourselves up as Judge and Jury and you still don't see the wood for the trees...everybody was against you, you are employees, you shall do as requested, if you don't like it!!!! you can withdraw your labour and go away!!!...........and some of your collegues could take no more and had a higher sense of duty to family and company, and went back to work, so in your failure, you take it out on them in a gutless act............. in the form of "THE LIST"...
You would have been better at being unionist on a building site, not airline pilots...as was described to me once "Norm Gallagher and his cronies, that could fly aeroplanes...The flying BLF"....you people are a disgrace to use LISTS to stop others to get work for the dreadful mess you created in Australia...............
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Hey Mainwheel,
Looking for some 3 worders to describe the Listees.
Richard Kranium---Tasmania
says a lot for how he appears to hold the facts
Sorry EWL, there are always his sort to drag up interstate rivalries
Every womans dream???
Oh well there you go
Woomera, I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that one got me in a weak moment
RK, have a good look at the list because in the main it contains the names of the weak and easily led, people who in the main let their MATES down in a big way. Many other Industries have gone through similar behaviour of a small number of their Union Members and the "Fate" of those has been similar.
There is an old story/quotation from a previous dispute in the mining industry where the behaviour was similar and many years later a young lad was told.
SORRY LADDIE, I CANNA HIRE YE, YOUR GRANDFATHER WAS A ****
RK if you are on that list, so be it, I'm not, didn't even give it a thought actually, felt that regardless of the cost to me , there were PRINCIPLES to uphold.
The costs you mention to the Country et all were tremendous, but could have been negated by a little spinal fortitude from a small number, Damn them and their weakness.
I don't drop my eyes and scurry around the corner in shopping centres, go out of restaurants, change my Vet half way through treatment when I see a 'Listee", but the "Listees" do.
It's late, did my 3rd last base check, fooled them again, got to look foreward to a 3 sector day training a S/O on Tuesday, life is a dottle. Thanks to all for some fun on a wet and cloudy Sunday, and SOPS, ta for the E-mail, it's been a ruff/tuff/m*ff of day, and to all a good night.
Looking for some 3 worders to describe the Listees.
Richard Kranium---Tasmania
says a lot for how he appears to hold the facts
Sorry EWL, there are always his sort to drag up interstate rivalries
Every womans dream???
Oh well there you go
Woomera, I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that one got me in a weak moment
RK, have a good look at the list because in the main it contains the names of the weak and easily led, people who in the main let their MATES down in a big way. Many other Industries have gone through similar behaviour of a small number of their Union Members and the "Fate" of those has been similar.
There is an old story/quotation from a previous dispute in the mining industry where the behaviour was similar and many years later a young lad was told.
SORRY LADDIE, I CANNA HIRE YE, YOUR GRANDFATHER WAS A ****
RK if you are on that list, so be it, I'm not, didn't even give it a thought actually, felt that regardless of the cost to me , there were PRINCIPLES to uphold.
The costs you mention to the Country et all were tremendous, but could have been negated by a little spinal fortitude from a small number, Damn them and their weakness.
I don't drop my eyes and scurry around the corner in shopping centres, go out of restaurants, change my Vet half way through treatment when I see a 'Listee", but the "Listees" do.
It's late, did my 3rd last base check, fooled them again, got to look foreward to a 3 sector day training a S/O on Tuesday, life is a dottle. Thanks to all for some fun on a wet and cloudy Sunday, and SOPS, ta for the E-mail, it's been a ruff/tuff/m*ff of day, and to all a good night.
short flights long nights
Richard K, this thread has been allowed to continue by the moderators, as long as we keep it civil. During my replies I have not yelled or abused, and I would ask you to do the same.
I have never said that this list that seems to worry you so much does not exsist, only that it does not matter if it does or does not.
You say RK, that in 89, it was not "my train set". Well you may be right or you may be wrong, I am not going to enter into a disscussion about it.
You also say that "you are empolyees and shall do as requested" That is a correct sentiment, in times of normality.
These days, you see, it is very much is "my train set", not all of it I would agree, but I get to control nearly all the trains.........and.......I am doing as my employer says "please apply our selection criteria to the best of your abilities".
So, I have the train set (or most of it) and I am following my employer's instructions, the ones that they pay me to follow and the instructions that is my employers RIGHT to isssue to me.
I dont need a list, even if there is one, I just follow my employers guidelines. No lists are needed, no anger, no hassles...just the criteria...and the facts. Makes the job easy.
Can I also ask on a friendly note, this thread is going well so far, can we please keep the yelling and stuff to a minimum to avoid a lock Thanks
I have never said that this list that seems to worry you so much does not exsist, only that it does not matter if it does or does not.
You say RK, that in 89, it was not "my train set". Well you may be right or you may be wrong, I am not going to enter into a disscussion about it.
You also say that "you are empolyees and shall do as requested" That is a correct sentiment, in times of normality.
These days, you see, it is very much is "my train set", not all of it I would agree, but I get to control nearly all the trains.........and.......I am doing as my employer says "please apply our selection criteria to the best of your abilities".
So, I have the train set (or most of it) and I am following my employer's instructions, the ones that they pay me to follow and the instructions that is my employers RIGHT to isssue to me.
I dont need a list, even if there is one, I just follow my employers guidelines. No lists are needed, no anger, no hassles...just the criteria...and the facts. Makes the job easy.
Can I also ask on a friendly note, this thread is going well so far, can we please keep the yelling and stuff to a minimum to avoid a lock Thanks
Last edited by SOPS; 8th Sep 2002 at 19:52.
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Greybeard et al...
you say that the whole battle could have been won by the returnees showing a little intestinal fortitude? (paraphrasing)
If they had stayed out with the rest of the 89ers they would also have been looking for work o/s I should think.
The rest of the worlds pilots and the guys in GA at the time were more than happy to step up to the plate.
I was only involved in a tin-pushing way in the dispute, but to most of the travelling public, the pilots thought they could hold the country to ransom and were rightly stepped on by the government of the day.
I don't for a moment agree with the methods employed, but when one group of workers begins to believe all their own press releases about their omnipitence, pride really does cometh before the fall.
Some have said to me in the past that it (the dispute) reminded them of the miners strike in the UK..Scargill I think it was against the Iron Lady...same result.
I have read just about all the threads on this subject, as have many people here on these boards and get do get tired of the same arguments being trotted out, the same rebuttals and so on.
Before someone mentions it, yes I could choose not to read them, that is my choice after all.
Yes, everything changed after 89, and there has been (IMHO) staggering hypocrisy from both sides, so how about treating it like a divorce...get on with your lives, and don't keep going back to what a bitch she/he was for the rest of your life.
I'm ready to accept being told that I couldn't possibly understand etc etc...but yes I can
I have one further thought...if there were death threats etc being received, were the police informed?? If not, what can I say? Why not?
you say that the whole battle could have been won by the returnees showing a little intestinal fortitude? (paraphrasing)
If they had stayed out with the rest of the 89ers they would also have been looking for work o/s I should think.
The rest of the worlds pilots and the guys in GA at the time were more than happy to step up to the plate.
I was only involved in a tin-pushing way in the dispute, but to most of the travelling public, the pilots thought they could hold the country to ransom and were rightly stepped on by the government of the day.
I don't for a moment agree with the methods employed, but when one group of workers begins to believe all their own press releases about their omnipitence, pride really does cometh before the fall.
Some have said to me in the past that it (the dispute) reminded them of the miners strike in the UK..Scargill I think it was against the Iron Lady...same result.
I have read just about all the threads on this subject, as have many people here on these boards and get do get tired of the same arguments being trotted out, the same rebuttals and so on.
Before someone mentions it, yes I could choose not to read them, that is my choice after all.
Yes, everything changed after 89, and there has been (IMHO) staggering hypocrisy from both sides, so how about treating it like a divorce...get on with your lives, and don't keep going back to what a bitch she/he was for the rest of your life.
I'm ready to accept being told that I couldn't possibly understand etc etc...but yes I can
I have one further thought...if there were death threats etc being received, were the police informed?? If not, what can I say? Why not?
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Yes, we will keep it civil...and there is no need for abuse or yelling...greybeard! Yes, it is so sad that a quote like that is so true...what was it, Sorry Ladie I can not hire you because your Grandfather was a **** ...because that has happened at VB with one of the sons that I know...and this is what saddens me, to think that you guys expounded during the dispute, that you are such professionals, equal to judges, lawers and doctors...then act according to that quote, in a most basic uneducated and primitive way......or yes Tassweiga, because I'm Richard Kranium...I have another head...as the other one...you know, I have to put a cossie over it...and every womans dream...well once again, the other head has some uses...so I guess its my lot in life.....
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GOOOOOD MOOORNING PPRuNe,
With a sorry to Robin Williams.
Well said SOPS, good one Mate.
Diving Duck, well now your Para 3 about who would step up to the Plate, they did in droves anyway.
The point is/was an Industrial right had been removed to allow the Union of my choice negotiate on my behalf.
Even before the "resignation" issue took place this had been refused, then to have our awards cancelled and all the other questionable acts of "legalities" pushed down our, AND ALL OTHER UNIONS BY ASSOCIATION, throats, we felt and I was of the opinion that,
THERE WAS A PRINCIPAL AT STAKE.
A NEW WAY OF DOING BUSINESS WAS IN PLACE AND HAS REMAINED.
Do you have better conditions/agreements now as to then?
Do you have the same level of Negotiation ability now as then?
Do you have an Award or the more normal Workplace Agreement?
Do you have Employment or a contract?
Most people who are my contacts as crew do not.
Look at the differing conditions as to Qantas Domestic vs. Virgin as to that one example, the old vs. the "New".
As to a divorce and getting over the drama, yes most others and I have. Life is very different than 1989 expectations, my Xmas card list has a few deletions and many, many additions.
I, and others, have, and are still enjoying working for different Airlines, European, American, and Asian etc. It has been difficult at times, excellent at others.
You and others cannot expect us to, and we will not forget or forgive people who have "Done the Dirty" as we see it.
That is as good an Australian way as I can remember, everyone on face value until events prove different.
Mostly our current Employers do not know, care, or understand what happened in1989, they just need a cohesive workforce who makes them money, preferably large amounts, and will not allow anyone to disturb that cohesion.
The Airlines in 1990 in Aust made that point also, the same applies now in the second half of the game of life.
The death threats were reported, as to action, nothing, as the authorities although privately supportive were under "Sailing Orders" and did a fair job of keeping the peace even so. See my bit on job threats.
The Vandalism and the Recorded messages were passed on, identities indicated, no action taken. We had senior contacts in the Police and were given "The Word". To be fair, we as a group were also given a fairly long rope as to pickets, demonstrations and minor harassment, so as things cooled down I guess we just bore our own burdens as best we could.
Dog needs a walk, cakes to eat, coffee to drink; life is OK for a Monday.
RK just read your bit, it happened to our sons and daughters also so don't feel bad, it's a two way street. Mine was one so effected.
Heads up?
With a sorry to Robin Williams.
Well said SOPS, good one Mate.
Diving Duck, well now your Para 3 about who would step up to the Plate, they did in droves anyway.
The point is/was an Industrial right had been removed to allow the Union of my choice negotiate on my behalf.
Even before the "resignation" issue took place this had been refused, then to have our awards cancelled and all the other questionable acts of "legalities" pushed down our, AND ALL OTHER UNIONS BY ASSOCIATION, throats, we felt and I was of the opinion that,
THERE WAS A PRINCIPAL AT STAKE.
A NEW WAY OF DOING BUSINESS WAS IN PLACE AND HAS REMAINED.
Do you have better conditions/agreements now as to then?
Do you have the same level of Negotiation ability now as then?
Do you have an Award or the more normal Workplace Agreement?
Do you have Employment or a contract?
Most people who are my contacts as crew do not.
Look at the differing conditions as to Qantas Domestic vs. Virgin as to that one example, the old vs. the "New".
As to a divorce and getting over the drama, yes most others and I have. Life is very different than 1989 expectations, my Xmas card list has a few deletions and many, many additions.
I, and others, have, and are still enjoying working for different Airlines, European, American, and Asian etc. It has been difficult at times, excellent at others.
You and others cannot expect us to, and we will not forget or forgive people who have "Done the Dirty" as we see it.
That is as good an Australian way as I can remember, everyone on face value until events prove different.
Mostly our current Employers do not know, care, or understand what happened in1989, they just need a cohesive workforce who makes them money, preferably large amounts, and will not allow anyone to disturb that cohesion.
The Airlines in 1990 in Aust made that point also, the same applies now in the second half of the game of life.
The death threats were reported, as to action, nothing, as the authorities although privately supportive were under "Sailing Orders" and did a fair job of keeping the peace even so. See my bit on job threats.
The Vandalism and the Recorded messages were passed on, identities indicated, no action taken. We had senior contacts in the Police and were given "The Word". To be fair, we as a group were also given a fairly long rope as to pickets, demonstrations and minor harassment, so as things cooled down I guess we just bore our own burdens as best we could.
Dog needs a walk, cakes to eat, coffee to drink; life is OK for a Monday.
RK just read your bit, it happened to our sons and daughters also so don't feel bad, it's a two way street. Mine was one so effected.
Heads up?
Join Date: Jun 2002
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It didn't happen to all greybeard...I know of 2 sons that joined. and their fathers did not come back....so the companies did not live by the adage...sons paying for their fathers sins...but then you have other experiences........................I'm sad about people that live by rigid principles and dogmas............its called myopic vision...oh how many wars because of this!!!
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Why is it that pilot unions will organize labor "actions" in regards to financial issues, and not safety issues, such as unsafe rostering, or the proposed oz legislation regarding cvr's used for prosecution.....nobody won in '89...but i find it incredible a fellow might be denied employment because of his parents union affiliation or lack of...that must be illegal