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Old 29th Mar 2024, 08:24
  #1421 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault
Whilst I agree Ellison is nobodies fool, aviation is a bit of a different animal. I do however question their choice of HOFO
I think management want you to believe running an airline is alchemy but itís nothing of the sort. Itís a big business with big machines and a bunch of operational staff and support services making it all happen. Airline management are little more than out of depth, politician schmoozing MBAís who think they know boats.
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 08:36
  #1422 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre
Agreed. There was a paywalled article from a few weeks ago that suggested the FWC said the issue was mostly the members not agreeing with the course set by the union?

ďPilots ignoring course set by union: FWCĒ

An "ineluctable finding" that the AFAP could not persuade pilot members at a Qantas subsidiary to vote up a new deal supported by the union has helped convince the FWC that it should make an intractable bargaining declaration sought by the airline.


If thereís already been two agreements between the two parties then that will be the path of least resistance out of the situation.

It took the FWC 15 months to decide the outcome of the AIPA/mainline situation post October 2011 so I donít see this current case being wrapped up soon.
Maybe. Itís no doubt come to the attention of the commissioners that Qantas desperately needs a face saving outcome here but, as many have mentioned, Fairwork will be making a lot of work for themselves if they go out of their way to protect IRís fragile egos. Either way a lot of people arenít waiting to find out what the result will be.
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 08:52
  #1423 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault
Whilst I agree Ellison is nobodies fool, aviation is a bit of a different animal. I do however question their choice of HOFO

No its not. Sorry with the likes of VA, QF, CX just to name a few, they are proof that a f..king moron or better yet a monkey could run an airline. Sorry it is clear you dont need a brain to run an airline. If you have money, not an endless desire of greed and an IQ above 90 I think you will do fine.
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 08:56
  #1424 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by walesregent
Maybe. Itís no doubt come to the attention of the commissioners that Qantas desperately needs a face saving outcome here but, as many have mentioned, Fairwork will be making a lot of work for themselves if they go out of their way to protect IRís fragile egos. Either way a lot of people arenít waiting to find out what the result will be.
This is exactly why this was a screwup by management. If this drags on for 6+ months there will be no staff left. Plenty of other options around atm and realistically if things improve at Network there will always be a spot for you to return - no seniority remember..
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 09:34
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
This is exactly why this was a screwup by management. If this drags on for 6+ months there will be no staff left. Plenty of other options around atm and realistically if things improve at Network there will always be a spot for you to return - no seniority remember..
Either way the contempt for the company amongst staff is off the charts. If Fairwork gifts the company with a cushy ruling the sense of injustice will destroy what little morale remains and with it any productivity the company has now or hoped to extract from the new contract. As discussed, this point is not lost on our big clients.
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 10:57
  #1426 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre
ďPilots ignoring course set by union: FWCĒ
Odd, I thought the pilots were the union. As a casual observer there seems to be a disconnect between what the AFAP executive will accept and the rank and file members expect.

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Old 29th Mar 2024, 11:01
  #1427 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sunnySA
Odd, I thought the pilots were the union. As a casual observer there seems to be a disconnect between what the AFAP executive will accept and the rank and file members expect.
The answer to that is that the AFAP had a position that the solution was the best achievable and its members had higher expectations. As it has panned out, time will who was right.
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 13:22
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Have been watching this thread closely and not quoting anyone in particular here though, but just so youíre aware ďbackpayĒ isnít typically part of fair workís remit. It is usually used as an employer driven wedge, used as a threat. There is no allowance for back pay in the legislation nor requirement so if youíre worried about that element in particular Iíd say the horse has bolted.. donít vote based on back pay as thereís a high likelihood you wonít get it.
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 13:32
  #1429 (permalink)  
 
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Network pilot numbers at Perth Roadshows will be reported and of course any resignations only adds to managements anxiety levels while everyone waits for the grown ups to decide . Good luck .
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 15:38
  #1430 (permalink)  
 
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Whatís important to remember is that Mineral Resources and Ellison are NOT trying to run an airline. They are trying to run a transportation arm of their multi-billion dollar mining company. That is the lens to view this entity through.
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 19:56
  #1431 (permalink)  
 
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Mineral Resources and Ellison are NOT trying to run an airline. They are trying to run a transportation arm
That is a very good point.
No concerns about market share, no concerns about competitive pricing. No building a brand and trust. No advertising budget. Only one customer to satisfy and that is yourself. Simply get your employees and equipment to and from work.
What Part will it likely operate under? I might apply
Ps I donít know who has been named as the HOFOÖÖwhat is their experience?
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 20:56
  #1432 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay
I think management want you to believe running an airline is alchemy but itís nothing of the sort. Itís a big business with big machines and a bunch of operational staff and support services making it all happen. Airline management are little more than out of depth, politician schmoozing MBAís who think they know boats.
totally agree. Most managers are irrelevant. Look at what the morons have done to mainline. The bathroom cleaners could run the place betterÖand for 300 million less in bloated wages/bonuses
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 22:23
  #1433 (permalink)  
 
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Whatís important to remember is that Mineral Resources and Ellison are NOT trying to run an airline. They are trying to run a transportation arm of their multi-billion dollar mining company. That is the lens to view this entity through.
And it's all tax deductible.
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Old 29th Mar 2024, 23:06
  #1434 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ZebraFlyer
Have been watching this thread closely and not quoting anyone in particular here though, but just so youíre aware ďbackpayĒ isnít typically part of fair workís remit. It is usually used as an employer driven wedge, used as a threat. There is no allowance for back pay in the legislation nor requirement so if youíre worried about that element in particular Iíd say the horse has bolted.. donít vote based on back pay as thereís a high likelihood you wonít get it.
As discussed, it was used extensively in the promotion of the previous offers so could be considered a Ďtermí of whatís on offer. I can only speculate what Fairwork will do but if they arenít pragmatic and donít take into consideration the question of Ďwhat will help network retain existing staffí they wonít really be doing Qantas any favours in the current market.
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Old 30th Mar 2024, 03:13
  #1435 (permalink)  
 
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I couldnít help myself. The subject of this letter came up in conversation today so I had to find it, read it and post it here. How accurate it isÖ.


I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.

For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.

I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder. They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes. They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.

I am an army of One.

I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn". I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they will find the write-up when they look in the book. I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up. I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.

I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort. I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do. I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold. I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money...but this too may change. I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now i collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference & disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One.

My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar I will make them pay.

When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.

When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.

When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FO's again - I will make them pay.

When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity ĖI will make them pay.

When they recall F/A's for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers- I will make them pay.

When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract, a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me.

Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter?

I'm not looking for clauses in a contract; I am looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again.

Until then, I am an army of One And I'm not alone!
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Old 30th Mar 2024, 03:23
  #1436 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay
I couldnít help myself. The subject of this letter came up in conversation today so I had to find it, read it and post it here. How accurate it isÖ.


I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.

For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.

I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder. They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes. They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.

I am an army of One.

I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn". I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they will find the write-up when they look in the book. I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up. I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.

I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort. I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do. I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold. I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money...but this too may change. I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now i collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference & disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One.

My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar I will make them pay.

When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.

When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.

When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FO's again - I will make them pay.

When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity ĖI will make them pay.

When they recall F/A's for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers- I will make them pay.

When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract, a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me.

Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter?

I'm not looking for clauses in a contract; I am looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again.

Until then, I am an army of One And I'm not alone!
As I always say. If you don't want Militants don't breed them. Militancy is the only solution to combat reckless out of touch corporations.
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Old 30th Mar 2024, 03:45
  #1437 (permalink)  
 
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Although I agree with the sentiments of the letter, there is no substitute for being a professional. Itís a shame employers canít do the same but at the end of the day itís a business. Burning excess fuel for the sake of it is unprofessional and just wasteful. You want to be paid more but happy to burn fuel which is the highest cost for an airline. Good luck doing this at other airlines. Here come the hatersÖ.
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Old 30th Mar 2024, 03:50
  #1438 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AviatoR21
Although I agree with the sentiments of the letter, there is no substitute for being a professional. Itís a shame employers canít do the same but at the end of the day itís a business. Burning excess fuel for the sake of it is unprofessional and just wasteful. You want to be paid more but happy to burn fuel which is the highest cost for an airline. Good luck doing this at other airlines. Here come the hatersÖ.

If Management cannot treat or pay me as a professional then why should I be a professional? We are treated as a janitors. Also management do not act as professionals themselves so why should we? Saving fuel for airlines these days is pathetic. If we are never deserving of a liveable salary in their eyes than I shall do everything in my power to reduce their bonuses even if it is by one dollar!
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Old 30th Mar 2024, 03:57
  #1439 (permalink)  
 
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And around and around it goes. You donít want them to get their bonuses and they donít want to pay you anymore. Sad reality aviation is in this country.
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Old 30th Mar 2024, 04:01
  #1440 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AviatoR21
Although I agree with the sentiments of the letter, there is no substitute for being a professional. Itís a shame employers canít do the same but at the end of the day itís a business. Burning excess fuel for the sake of it is unprofessional and just wasteful. You want to be paid more but happy to burn fuel which is the highest cost for an airline. Good luck doing this at other airlines. Here come the hatersÖ.
yeah. Iíll happily go slow on overtime sectors, then switch and fly cost index 200 when Iím not. Iíll happily arrive 30mins early and keep speeding up when it suits MY schedule.
Iíll drop work sick whenever it suits me and my family.
I had absolute loyalty before the constant manipulation and lying. Using another entity to threaten my career was the final straw.
I donít think QF will ever get most of us back. The entire board would need removal for me to have any trust again.


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