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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 02:21
  #1481 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by smiffysarmy
The sooner everyone associated with the ‘group’ realises that AIPA isn’t what it used to be, the better. AFAP have no skin in the game, they don’t want management jobs or have mates in current management, they’re totally independent. Like many others have said, one union to represent pilots would be ideal and that sadly shouldn’t include AIPA anymore, AIPA have lost their way.
Lets wait and see what AIPA get for SH and LH.

The previous posters are correct. Voting no would have got the network pilots at the same position today without a loss of pay.
However, the PIA did unify those pilots.
The 3rd no vote caused NAA to make the mistake of taking things off the table which pissed the fence-sitters off. That’s what made the fourth vote rise to 77% no. I think if the PIA didn’t happen then management may have approached the situation less aggressively; sweetened the deal just enough to sway the fence-sitters who bought into the threats, and got the fourth vote over the line with a slightly less **** EBA offer.

Kudos to those who had the balls to always vote no through the second and third votes.

Unfortunately, if it wasn’t for the PIA triggering the company to pull away out of spite, which in turn pissed more pilots off, then those who originally voted yes on the second and third vote would have probably continued to do so on the fourth vote.


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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 02:31
  #1482 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if QF and the FWA understand that neither they nor the unions can stop a max exodus of pilots for considerably greener pastures.

If the ruling is in favour of the employer that employer may be forced to understand what "pyrrhic victory" means.
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 02:45
  #1483 (permalink)  
 
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I’ve gotta laugh at all this anti-AIPA, pro-AFAP rhetoric going on.
In the context of this negotiation, AFAP agreed to terms with Network (twice) that the majority of pilots found unacceptable.
Then they pushed PIA which achieved absolutely ZERO improvements to the terms on offer, just a re-vote on the previously rejected deal.
They objected to IB up to the last minute, then agreed to it as long as they had 2 more weeks to negotiate a better agreement. But guess what, that attempt failed too.
So yeah, you got to say F-you to the company and I’m sure that felt nice, but industrially speaking, it achieved nothing.

What this shows is, talking tough and demanding the world is EASY! Achieving actual improved T&C’s is very hard.

Numerous AFAP negotiated Airline EA’s have seen pilots paid less than or just above the legal absolute minimum, (Air Pilots Award). Yet they are held up as the master negotiators of our industry. If that is the gold standard, then we are all screwed.
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 02:52
  #1484 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chris2303
I wonder if QF and the FWA understand that neither they nor the unions can stop a max exodus of pilots for considerably greener pastures.

If the ruling is in favour of the employer that employer may be forced to understand what "pyrrhic victory" means.
exactly. Network pilots need 50% more to just be competitive in an already crappy Australian industry.
all airlines are about to struggle for crew.
just imagine basings in Australia from Emirates, CX etc.
all these clowns stating we should have done this or that, PIA didn’t achieve anything etc.
We all need to take a stand now. Not for 10-20%, not 20-30%…for 50-60% and more.
you all have no idea what you’re worth. Stop fighting for scraps off the table.
look at the US for inspiration.
one union is likely the key. I feel AFAP may be the answer.
stop being manipulated by a bunch of sociopaths.
they play games to achieve KPIs and bonuses, we need to be doing the same.
well done to the network guys for having some courage and conviction.
I hope AIPA can grow a spine for the upcoming SH + LH “negotiations”
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 03:09
  #1485 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Beer Baron
I’ve gotta laugh at all this anti-AIPA, pro-AFAP rhetoric going on.

Numerous AFAP negotiated Airline EA’s have seen pilots paid less than or just above the legal absolute minimum, (Air Pilots Award). Yet they are held up as the master negotiators of our industry. If that is the gold standard, then we are all screwed.
The 2 best contracts in the country, those that cover the one carrier that has no shortage of applicants, are both AIPA negotiated.

Unless AFAP can pull off what would have to be one of the greatest legal wins of all time there’s going to be no change to that fact.

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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 03:15
  #1486 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre
Unless AFAP can pull off what would have to be one of the greatest legal wins of all time there’s going to be no change to that fact.
Opposed to still reeling from the 'bus driver' era... how'd that work out? Let me check the B scale award I work under...
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 03:59
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I feel like we should definitely focus on infighting between AFAP and AIPA. This is surely the path to future financial success.
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 06:08
  #1488 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by smiffysarmy
The sooner everyone associated with the ‘group’ realises that AIPA isn’t what it used to be, the better. AFAP have no skin in the game, they don’t want management jobs or have mates in current management, they’re totally independent. Like many others have said, one union to represent pilots would be ideal and that sadly shouldn’t include AIPA anymore, AIPA have lost their way.
I remember the AFAP. Isn’t that the Australian pilot union that cost more than 2000 Australian airline pilots their jobs in pursuit of an industrial agenda. In the same timeframe X number of such pilots suicided and Y number of marriages ended in divorce as a direct consequence.
It is the same pilot union that recommended a “yes”vote in 2 out of 3 of the last pilot ballots in the Network dispute.
Howcome the AFAP is now the answer to all problems for Australian airline pilots?

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 5th Apr 2024 at 06:24. Reason: Sort out pagination
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 07:00
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Originally Posted by dr dre
The 2 best contracts in the country, those that cover the one carrier that has no shortage of applicants, are both AIPA negotiated.

Unless AFAP can pull off what would have to be one of the greatest legal wins of all time there’s going to be no change to that fact.
lol..
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 09:41
  #1490 (permalink)  
 
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Hang on guys. Just remember who actually turned up to support the pilots, whether you like them or not the AFAP was right there with you when the others weren’t.

My enemy’s enemy is my friend. Hang tight with whomever steps up, and acknowledge their efforts.
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 09:43
  #1491 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bobbelmore
I remember the AFAP. Isn’t that the Australian pilot union that cost more than 2000 Australian airline pilots their jobs in pursuit of an industrial agenda. In the same timeframe X number of such pilots suicided and Y number of marriages ended in divorce as a direct consequence.
It is the same pilot union that recommended a “yes”vote in 2 out of 3 of the last pilot ballots in the Network dispute.
Howcome the AFAP is now the answer to all problems for Australian airline pilots?
We need to redirect our anger towards the organisation who put us (pilots and unions) in this position. Qantas caused all of the terrible events mentioned above, the fight is with them, not the unions.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 5th Apr 2024 at 06:25. Reason: Pagination error on quote
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 10:12
  #1492 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bobbelmore

I remember the AFAP. Isn’t that the Australian pilot union that cost more than 2000 Australian airline pilots their jobs in pursuit of an industrial agenda. In the same timeframe X number of such pilots suicided and Y number of marriages ended in divorce as
a direct consequence.
It is the same pilot union that recommended a “yes”vote in 2 out of 3 of the last pilot ballots in the Network dispute.
Howcome the AFAP is now the answer to all problems for Australian airline pilots?

No , it wasn't the AFAP, it was James Strong, Peter Abeles and the revengeful Bob Hawke, along with a gaggle of useful idiots.
Hawke set out long before 1989 to bring down the AFAP because of its refusal to fall under the wing of the ACTU of which he was leader. Hawke took this as a personal slight. So he waited and as PM and with his mate Abeles they got Strong on board and in the first time in history threatened to personally sue an pilot who went on strike over an pre planned attempt to effectively cut pilots terms and conditions, yes a disgraceful Labor PM.
No doubt the AFAP got some poor advice at the time
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 11:51
  #1493 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bobbelmore

I remember the AFAP. Isn’t that the Australian pilot union that cost more than 2000 Australian airline pilots their jobs in pursuit of an industrial agenda. In the same timeframe X number of such pilots suicided and Y number of marriages ended in divorce as
a direct consequence.
It is the same pilot union that recommended a “yes”vote in 2 out of 3 of the last pilot ballots in the Network dispute.
Howcome the AFAP is now the answer to all problems for Australian airline pilots?

Crap, not another 'back in 89er'

Pilots have since been born, the internet has become mainstream, and the world has moved on etc etc.

High five Network, regardless off any outcome you guys/girls are the first in a few years to actaully take up a fight rather than ridicule others for accepting less than they happen to inherit from thier predecessors. Full respect.
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 17:48
  #1494 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre
The 2 best contracts in the country, those that cover the one carrier that has no shortage of applicants, are both AIPA negotiated.

Unless AFAP can pull off what would have to be one of the greatest legal wins of all time there’s going to be no change to that fact.
We are taught about Stockholm syndrome during EPs Perhaps this is another example.

Under AIPA watch domestic flying has been handed to subsidiary airlines with newer equipment and lesser conditions of service. This flying won't be coming back to mainline. This has reduced career progression at mainline.

The majority of international flying has been gifted to EK. Again newer equipment and better service. Compare seats to/from Australia per day between EK and QF. This market share will never be recovered. Again adversely affecting career progression.

The QF fleet age has placed QF in a perilous situation. Airframe order time and cost means this will be no easy fix. This adversely threatens QF careers.

Should we mention staff travel? Where new joining office dwellers have priority over long serving flight deck crew.

QF command upgrade time is measured in multiple of decades. Today this stands it apart from other airlines.Can I suggest in not a good way? This is because it has stagnated, with a reduction in fleet numbers and no real plans for growth. Cost and time become the real threats. And the AIPA have been played. They are scared of shadows doing anything to ensure any new aeroplane has a chance to come to Mainline.

In days gone past, the AIPA could have been referred to as a girls blouse. Which might be the correct term for the buttoned short sleeve uniform shirt that has also been approved under their watch.

Australian aviation is a very small community. Until it becomes unified in trying to benefit all, it will flounder. Airline management have had a free hand to do as they will. An event in the late 80s allowed them to feel empowered to do this. For this to change pilot attitude needs to change. It can't be the normal Australian pilot group vs pilot group.


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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 21:22
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Originally Posted by donpizmeov
We are taught about Stockholm syndrome during EPs Perhaps this is another example.

Under AIPA watch domestic flying has been handed to subsidiary airlines with newer equipment and lesser conditions of service. This flying won't be coming back to mainline. This has reduced career progression at mainline.

The majority of international flying has been gifted to EK. Again newer equipment and better service. Compare seats to/from Australia per day between EK and QF. This market share will never be recovered. Again adversely affecting career progression.

The QF fleet age has placed QF in a perilous situation. Airframe order time and cost means this will be no easy fix. This adversely threatens QF careers.

Should we mention staff travel? Where new joining office dwellers have priority over long serving flight deck crew.
All that is entirely correct, but how exactly were AIPA - or the AFAP for that matter - going to prevent this?

PIA? Recall that the CEO was the darling of the business world at the time and PIA would have had almost zero public support. Don't forget, the pilots voted up the last 2 or 3 EA agreements to at least some degree based on the implied threats.

The CEO at the centre of these decisions (and his predecessor) specifically set out to remove the apparently costly staff (ignoring the benefits of having a loyal, motivated workforce) to outsource to less costly entities for the benefit of anyone but the staff (and not just pilots) or customers.

So what would the AFAP have done differently and prevented the declines mentioned in the quote?

As it turns out, even those outsourced entities are now in the firing line and there is no guarantee they'll be anymore successful than AIPA have been in dealing with a personally financially motivated senior executive 'team'. I hope they are but their best outcome will still be significantly inferior to mainline.
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 22:53
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Originally Posted by Gas Chamber
Just a thought.
Why does any union agree to negotiate with the 2 faced, back stabbing, greedy, obvious sociopathic ex AIPA president?
why?
they should refuse based on him having zero credibility and being a known liar/manipulator.
I’m not sure how he even keeps a straight face in meetings. Completely ridiculous behaviour.
They do it because it is the law. Look up the requirements for Good Faith Bargaining.
The following are the good faith bargaining requirements that a bargaining representative for a proposed enterprise agreement must meet:
  1. attending, and participating in, meetings at reasonable times;
  2. recognising and bargaining with the other bargaining representatives for the agreement.

As for donpizmeov’s diatribe, well if AIPA are to blame for everything from the age of Qantas’ fleet to the partnership with Emirates, then I guess AFAP is equally responsible for Virgin going bust and Tiger being shut down. Well done on that, really served the members interests well.
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Old 3rd Apr 2024, 23:10
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Originally Posted by Beer Baron
They do it because it is the law. Look up the requirements for Good Faith Bargaining.



As for donpizmeov’s diatribe, well if AIPA are to blame for everything from the age of Qantas’ fleet to the partnership with Emirates, then I guess AFAP is equally responsible for Virgin going bust and Tiger being shut down. Well done on that, really served the members interests well.

they could at the very least ask for someone else. He lacks any credibility or honesty…so how can you have good faith bargaining?
all unions and pilots need to get their act together. Unite at the very least. It’s already gone too far in Australia.
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Old 4th Apr 2024, 07:45
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Originally Posted by Gas Chamber
they could at the very least ask for someone else. He lacks any credibility or honesty…so how can you have good faith bargaining?
all unions and pilots need to get their act together. Unite at the very least. It’s already gone too far in Australia.
Because it’s a negotiate between parties, not people. Maybe they did ask for a new person and simply got told “no”.
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Old 4th Apr 2024, 10:18
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Originally Posted by Gas Chamber
they could at the very least ask for someone else. He lacks any credibility or honesty…so how can you have good faith bargaining?
all unions and pilots need to get their act together. Unite at the very least. It’s already gone too far in Australia.
Yes but what happens if you reverse the argument and it was the Company saying they don’t want pilot representative ‘x’ in the room…
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Old 4th Apr 2024, 12:32
  #1500 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by C441
All that is entirely correct, but how exactly were AIPA - or the AFAP for that matter - going to prevent this?

PIA? Recall that the CEO was the darling of the business world at the time and PIA would have had almost zero public support. Don't forget, the pilots voted up the last 2 or 3 EA agreements to at least some degree based on the implied threats.

The CEO at the centre of these decisions (and his predecessor) specifically set out to remove the apparently costly staff (ignoring the benefits of having a loyal, motivated workforce) to outsource to less costly entities for the benefit of anyone but the staff (and not just pilots) or customers.

So what would the AFAP have done differently and prevented the declines mentioned in the quote?

As it turns out, even those outsourced entities are now in the firing line and there is no guarantee they'll be anymore successful than AIPA have been in dealing with a personally financially motivated senior executive 'team'. I hope they are but their best outcome will still be significantly inferior to mainline.
The only tool pilots have to prevent all of the above is negotiating scope. Scope is the reason US regionals have started to die, US mainline flying increased, and led to stronger bargaining positions.

Delta are tapped out on growing their international because of relatively weak scope language, although they improved it in last year's negotiations. FedEx also have extremely weak scope language, leading to a lot of their flying being farmed out to Amazon carriers.

The problem with negotiating for scope is that it'll cost you a lot to secure now, but you won't see the benefit of it for a long time. QF pilots have to lead the way though, or suffer the continued decline in career outlook as Links of whatever flavour come and go. If QF guys can get that over the line, life for every Aus pilot will improve.
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