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Covid Vaccines and Pilots

Old 22nd Jan 2022, 08:16
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Sorry Eclan you are way off the mark, as I said IF you are infected with Covid, not for the total population, which is the issue here for vaxxed vs not.

As per the chart on Page 7 of the document

Vaxxed is 1% of cases hospitalised vs 8.9% of cases that are unvaxxed, that's a 9 times higher rate.

Vaxxed is .1% rate of ICU vs 1.5% of cases that are unvaxxed, thats a rate of 15 times higher.

And last of all you had to do some maths, because so few of the vaxxed cohort have died that it leaves you with a % well below .1%;

Vaxxed is 0.02% death rate vs 0.6% death rate, ie 30 times higher death rate.

BTW when considering stats the graph on page 7 is the only one relevant here as it covers the period from November 21 to January 22, therefore covering the figures during the latest outbreak.

SO sorry mate you are in with the amateur brigade in interpreting medical statistics and showing yourself as lacking.

I think you need to rethink how you interpret statistics as you have to match relative cohorts, the reason you say rates as XX times is because simply if you were to extrapolate the unvaxxed cases out to the same as the vaxxed cases you would have 23 times the number of deaths as the current vaxxed cohort. The reason I came up with 30 is because of rounding small numbers that multiply large figures ie .02 vs 0.6 when its more like .025% or so, in any case 23 times is still a huge rate more. It means that if the unvaxxed cohort were the size of the vaxxed cohort 1604 would have died instead of 67. WRT hospitalisations if the vaxxed cohort were unvaxxed the hospitalisation numbers would have been 23,000 vs 2,600 as is now. I think that should have made it easy enough to understand.

And before there's any piping up about 'but that's only for the infected people' etc etc, we are measuring the effectiveness of the vaccines vs the virus, so you have to compare statistics from only the infected population. Those 'yet' to be infected should follow a similar pattern. Other things that are not considered here are how many of the 'unvaxxed' had previous covid infection and also how many of the vaxxed were exposed to the virus but did not contract it.

People who have bad covid experiences usually have other conditions, which often means hospitalisation. That should be obvious by now.
Again we are comparing the same thing with only one major variation, vaccination status, so the rate difference between them is the effectiveness of the vaccine. Both cohorts will have a mix of conditions and ages.

They don’t want anyone getting the “wrong idea” about an inconvenient stat which doesn’t suit the narrative. By default though they’ve illustrated where the greatest risk is.

Of course the stats above are almost entirely related to Delta and not the current strain so the numbers for the current times will be even more balanced.

Some condensed definitions from your document to help illustrate the misinformation:
That statement was in regard to that final graph, which you used in error, if you noticed the vaccinated cohort was only 6600 or so, meaning mainly the aged and so in in the initial tranche of vaccinations, so they are warning that in that graph the distribution of cohort ages is inappropriately matched to be of statistical benefit.

They are still allowing the unqualified and the wilfully pigheaded to incorrectly presume covid caused each reported death.
Again irrelevant to this convo as above, both cohorts are subject to the same assessment of 'died with covid' etc.

Last edited by 43Inches; 22nd Jan 2022 at 08:56.
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 12:04
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Eclan,
Wow just wow. You tried to get on your high horse and completely got it wrong. Oh look at me, I know how to interpret statistics and do maths! In reality, you just showed us your ineptitude.
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 22:48
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Elclan and ampclamp, please let me know when your next performance at the Comedy Club is scheduled. I want front row seats
and am prepared to pay big bucks for the laughs
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 03:21
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Originally Posted by 3 Holer View Post
Elclan and ampclamp, please let me know when your next performance at the Comedy Club is scheduled. I want front row seats
and am prepared to pay big bucks for the laughs
I may need to ring a satire bell next time I post something taking the p1ss out of anti vaxxers and their moronic meme driven facebook research. How Elclan took that as 3 holer being owned I have no idea.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 05:16
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
Sorry Eclan you are way off the mark, as I said IF you are infected with Covid, not for the total population, which is the issue here for vaxxed vs not.

As per the chart on Page 7 of the document

Vaxxed is 1% of cases hospitalised vs 8.9% of cases that are unvaxxed, that's a 9 times higher rate.

Vaxxed is .1% rate of ICU vs 1.5% of cases that are unvaxxed, thats a rate of 15 times higher.

And last of all you had to do some maths, because so few of the vaxxed cohort have died that it leaves you with a % well below .1%;

Vaxxed is 0.02% death rate vs 0.6% death rate, ie 30 times higher death rate.

BTW when considering stats the graph on page 7 is the only one relevant here as it covers the period from November 21 to January 22, therefore covering the figures during the latest outbreak.

SO sorry mate you are in with the amateur brigade in interpreting medical statistics and showing yourself as lacking.

I think you need to rethink how you interpret statistics as you have to match relative cohorts, the reason you say rates as XX times is because simply if you were to extrapolate the unvaxxed cases out to the same as the vaxxed cases you would have 23 times the number of deaths as the current vaxxed cohort. The reason I came up with 30 is because of rounding small numbers that multiply large figures ie .02 vs 0.6 when its more like .025% or so, in any case 23 times is still a huge rate more. It means that if the unvaxxed cohort were the size of the vaxxed cohort 1604 would have died instead of 67. WRT hospitalisations if the vaxxed cohort were unvaxxed the hospitalisation numbers would have been 23,000 vs 2,600 as is now. I think that should have made it easy enough to understand.

And before there's any piping up about 'but that's only for the infected people' etc etc, we are measuring the effectiveness of the vaccines vs the virus, so you have to compare statistics from only the infected population. Those 'yet' to be infected should follow a similar pattern. Other things that are not considered here are how many of the 'unvaxxed' had previous covid infection and also how many of the vaxxed were exposed to the virus but did not contract it.



Again we are comparing the same thing with only one major variation, vaccination status, so the rate difference between them is the effectiveness of the vaccine. Both cohorts will have a mix of conditions and ages.



That statement was in regard to that final graph, which you used in error, if you noticed the vaccinated cohort was only 6600 or so, meaning mainly the aged and so in in the initial tranche of vaccinations, so they are warning that in that graph the distribution of cohort ages is inappropriately matched to be of statistical benefit.



Again irrelevant to this convo as above, both cohorts are subject to the same assessment of 'died with covid' etc.
My apologies, yes, I used the earlier chart which had nearly 5 Ĺ months of data versus the six weeks or so in the P7 table you used. I did say it is more relevant to Delta. It appears you do understand statistics which is refreshing to see around here where many posts are simply white noise. Again, my apologies to you. Table 5 data are emerging and by definition donít include the unknown but large number of people still incubating it which may well influence the pattern.

I understand you intended your post to refer to only those who got the disease. Fair point based on the data there however the outlook that ďit worksĒ is still erroneous as the table clearly shows the vast majority of known cases have two doses, out of proportion to vaccination rates. As a rough calculation in NSW against the population, the two dose cases are 3.5% of the two-dose population. The zero-dose cases are 0.7% of the zero-dose population. These are possibly slightly skewed as age isnít taken into account but not by 5x. Restrictions may account for some of it however they are eased now so the fact of a quarter of a million two-dose cases says Aussie Bob was right.

Despite your % probabilities Aussie Bobís comment is valid re deaths given the very small numbers Ė inho, obviously, as Iím not one of the elderly. Iíd still recommend all measures for them however you can safely say most other people can breathe easy.

In the previous 48 hours 64 people in NSW died ďwithĒ Covid-19, three quarters of whom had two doses or three doses. Some had one. Less than a quarter had zero. Not a good proportion for the zero-dose, no, however given the small numbers Aussie Bobís point still stands. Most of the <70yos had ďsignificant underlying health issuesĒ and given the explanatory notes and definitions you can see the death rate from covid is not what it is being held to be.

Table 5 indicates two dose cases at 75x the number of zero dose while in the general population two dose are only 15x the zero dose numbers. Aussie Bob was alluding to this in the bigger picture than just a proportional number.

The relevance is that for a total of ďonlyĒ 88 deaths the effect of pre-existing conditions can massively sway the picture Ė in either direction.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 06:45
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I have to agree the 'died with covid' thing is getting a bit silly, and really it's only used because they have no other way of releasing figures in real time, there seems to be about a 20-30% error factor for using this method. To ascertain cause of death this takes another week or so, and by then people are not interested in what happened last week, this is why the UK has the ONS which collates all the data and separates 'died with' (had covid within x timeframe) vs 'died of' (covid was listed on the death certificate) and releases regular reports on mortality, which includes well thought out covid statistics. Australia has the RBS which should be doing the same but is not really keeping up.

Personally I don't see the need for the general public to get boosters at such frequent stages, only those that are vulnerable. In any other case the residual run down of the vaccination is fine for most of the public out past 6 months, more than enough to stop you from getting seriously ill of die. That stats are proving that.

Table 5 indicates two dose cases at 75x the number of zero dose while in the general population two dose are only 15x the zero dose numbers. Aussie Bob was alluding to this in the bigger picture than just a proportional number.
That's obviously due to a number of factors, one being those that are vaccinated tend to be less careful about how they move around. Also there are not the clusters of unvaccinated in Australia like there is in the UK and USA where it spreads like wildfire and kills a vast number. Even the death rate shows that it has dropped to 1/4 of what it was during delta for the unvaxxed, which is again probably due to lower age groups and prior infections, although still nowhere near as low as the vaxxed population.
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Old 30th Apr 2022, 07:53
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Vaccines have harmed people

I am someone who has been injured by the covid-19 vaccines. So before you put it all down to conspiracy theories, at least take the time to read my story:

I worked as a pilot in GA for 12 years, but I havenít flown for about 5 years. I was working behind the desk but I had been toying with getting back in the air once things return to some sort of normal.

I wasnít keen on getting vaccinated, as I have a healthy distrust of the pharmaceutical industry. My father worked for a few companies (Boots/ J& J) in a 20 yr period and he had told me quite a few horrid stories about their unethical behaviour. I am not, however, a conspiracy theorist or joined any protests. I just would prefer to focus on being as healthy as possible.

I had to get vaccinated because of the aviation job I had. I had my first jab in Aug Ď21. A couple of days later I started to get a weird pain in my face. It progressively got more painful and more frequent. Two weeks later and I was in agony. It was seriously the most painful thing I have had in my life. The first night that it was really bad, I couldnít sleep and I sat up all night trying to diagnose myself by googling. I came across mention of facial pain and paralysis as possible side effects from Pfizer, listed on two foreign government websites. Since the timing matched up, I started to wonder whether it was from the vaccine.

I went to a GP. He got me to go to the dentist and check there were no teeth issues. The dentist cleared me and then the GP diagnosed Trigeminal Neuralgia (TN) He prescribed 2 nerve drugs but nothing helped. I found a few medical journal articles mentioning TN resulting from covid vaccines and brought them up with my GP. He said ďI donít know if itís relatedĒ. I asked if I should get the second one and if it would get worse. He provided no help and said ďI donít knowĒ.

The horrid pain persisted on and off, with no relief, except putting a heat bag on my face. They call TN Ďsuicide painí and I can understand why. I did even think that if I had to put up with the pain long term, I would just kill myself.

I decided to try natural therapies to help, as the GP offered nothing except drugs that did not work. I tried quite a few things out of desperation. Not until I went to a Kinesiologist did the pain calm down and subside.

I left the second jab as long as I could, and had it at the end of October. Three hours after the second Pfizer jab, the pain came back. Not only that, the next day it also started on the other side of my face. Then I started getting itchy feet, then burning feet, then my calves would ache or just feel like they were on fire. Then I started getting stinging pain all over my body. Then my thighs started aching or were on fire. Over time the intensity and frequency has increased, and the more of my body is affected. Then I also started getting dizzy after trying a different drug. The dizziness has stayed even though I stopped taking the drug. It appears that it has had some sort of interaction with my vagus nerve, because my nerve system has been damaged. The dizziness doesnít stop and I donít drive.
The more I move the worse the pain is. Most of the time I have some level of pain. I still get the pain in my cheeks, but the pain in my feet and legs is the worst. Sometimes I canít walk or stand up. My legs will feel heavy and on fire. Sometimes I canít sleep.

The more I looked into it the more I realised that neurological problems were a well reported side effect, and articles were appearing in medical journals (including neurology journals) about the connection between the vaccines and nerve problems, which specifically mentioned TN and Small Fibre Neuropathy (SFN). Some were published as early as Feb 2021.

I tried to get an exemption for the booster but I didnít qualify (very few people do). Pain is not sufficient, you have to nearly die. This meant I had to leave my office aviation job, as 3 vaccines were mandated and I couldnít risk doing more harm to my body. I moved states and got a hospitality job, but I realised very quickly that I canít work more than about 10 hrs a week, as all the pain gets worse with the more I am on my feet. I canít do any more exercise than short walks. I canít drive due to the dizziness.

No, I have not seen a neurologist, as I live in a rural area and there are none here. I am waiting on a date which will be in about 9 months, if I am lucky. All the GPs do is suggest different drugs.

My health has been ruined by the vaccines. I have never had any serious health issues before, or any nerve problems before. I have never tried so many horrid and serious drugs before, in desperation, to try and deal with the pain. I canít think straight due to the constant dizziness. I am trying to finish a law degree and I canít focus. I really donít know if I can finish it.

I was not anti-vaxxer, but I would never get anther vaccine - EVER. I should have been able to get an exemption after the first vaccine, as there was sufficient evidence then, to show that it was negatively affecting my nerves. There was sufficient evidence to show that it could negatively affect the human nervous system.

My sister has also had an adverse reaction to the vaccines. She had to have 3 jabs for her job as well. She has neurological problems and they are even worse.

I have lost a job I loved.
I had to move state.
I am spending lots of money trying various alternative treatments.
I am not earning much money because the pain is too great.
I have connected with many other people who have the same symptoms.
Who knows how long it will take to heal, or before I can work more, or drive?
Who knows if I will ever be able to fly again?


So before you assume that everyone is a conspiracy theorist, think of me.

There are also many other people who have been harmed, but the media is not reporting and it looks like the only people against the vaccines are nutters and the anti-mask wearers. They are not.

Sometimes, you really donít know, what you donít know.

Last edited by Surreal; 30th Apr 2022 at 15:16.
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Old 30th Apr 2022, 16:48
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Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
I am someone who has been injured by the covid-19 vaccines. So before you put it all down to conspiracy theories, at least take the time to read my story:

I worked as a pilot in GA for 12 years, but I havenít flown for about 5 years. I was working behind the desk but I had been toying with getting back in the air once things return to some sort of normal.

I wasnít keen on getting vaccinated, as I have a healthy distrust of the pharmaceutical industry. My father worked for a few companies (Boots/ J& J) in a 20 yr period and he had told me quite a few horrid stories about their unethical behaviour. I am not, however, a conspiracy theorist or joined any protests. I just would prefer to focus on being as healthy as possible.

I had to get vaccinated because of the aviation job I had. I had my first jab in Aug Ď21. A couple of days later I started to get a weird pain in my face. It progressively got more painful and more frequent. Two weeks later and I was in agony. It was seriously the most painful thing I have had in my life. The first night that it was really bad, I couldnít sleep and I sat up all night trying to diagnose myself by googling. I came across mention of facial pain and paralysis as possible side effects from Pfizer, listed on two foreign government websites. Since the timing matched up, I started to wonder whether it was from the vaccine.

I went to a GP. He got me to go to the dentist and check there were no teeth issues. The dentist cleared me and then the GP diagnosed Trigeminal Neuralgia (TN) He prescribed 2 nerve drugs but nothing helped. I found a few medical journal articles mentioning TN resulting from covid vaccines and brought them up with my GP. He said ďI donít know if itís relatedĒ. I asked if I should get the second one and if it would get worse. He provided no help and said ďI donít knowĒ.

The horrid pain persisted on and off, with no relief, except putting a heat bag on my face. They call TN Ďsuicide painí and I can understand why. I did even think that if I had to put up with the pain long term, I would just kill myself.

I decided to try natural therapies to help, as the GP offered nothing except drugs that did not work. I tried quite a few things out of desperation. Not until I went to a Kinesiologist did the pain calm down and subside.

I left the second jab as long as I could, and had it at the end of October. Three hours after the second Pfizer jab, the pain came back. Not only that, the next day it also started on the other side of my face. Then I started getting itchy feet, then burning feet, then my calves would ache or just feel like they were on fire. Then I started getting stinging pain all over my body. Then my thighs started aching or were on fire. Over time the intensity and frequency has increased, and the more of my body is affected. Then I also started getting dizzy after trying a different drug. The dizziness has stayed even though I stopped taking the drug. It appears that it has had some sort of interaction with my vagus nerve, because my nerve system has been damaged. The dizziness doesnít stop and I donít drive.
The more I move the worse the pain is. Most of the time I have some level of pain. I still get the pain in my cheeks, but the pain in my feet and legs is the worst. Sometimes I canít walk or stand up. My legs will feel heavy and on fire. Sometimes I canít sleep.

The more I looked into it the more I realised that neurological problems were a well reported side effect, and articles were appearing in medical journals (including neurology journals) about the connection between the vaccines and nerve problems, which specifically mentioned TN and Small Fibre Neuropathy (SFN). Some were published as early as Feb 2021.

I tried to get an exemption for the booster but I didnít qualify (very few people do). Pain is not sufficient, you have to nearly die. This meant I had to leave my office aviation job, as 3 vaccines were mandated and I couldnít risk doing more harm to my body. I moved states and got a hospitality job, but I realised very quickly that I canít work more than about 10 hrs a week, as all the pain gets worse with the more I am on my feet. I canít do any more exercise than short walks. I canít drive due to the dizziness.

No, I have not seen a neurologist, as I live in a rural area and there are none here. I am waiting on a date which will be in about 9 months, if I am lucky. All the GPs do is suggest different drugs.

My health has been ruined by the vaccines. I have never had any serious health issues before, or any nerve problems before. I have never tried so many horrid and serious drugs before, in desperation, to try and deal with the pain. I canít think straight due to the constant dizziness. I am trying to finish a law degree and I canít focus. I really donít know if I can finish it.

I was not anti-vaxxer, but I would never get anther vaccine - EVER. I should have been able to get an exemption after the first vaccine, as there was sufficient evidence then, to show that it was negatively affecting my nerves. There was sufficient evidence to show that it could negatively affect the human nervous system.

My sister has also had an adverse reaction to the vaccines. She had to have 3 jabs for her job as well. She has neurological problems and they are even worse.

I have lost a job I loved.
I had to move state.
I am spending lots of money trying various alternative treatments.
I am not earning much money because the pain is too great.
I have connected with many other people who have the same symptoms.
Who knows how long it will take to heal, or before I can work more, or drive?
Who knows if I will ever be able to fly again?


So before you assume that everyone is a conspiracy theorist, think of me.

There are also many other people who have been harmed, but the media is not reporting and it looks like the only people against the vaccines are nutters and the anti-mask wearers. They are not.

Sometimes, you really donít know, what you donít know.
Sorry to hear what you have experienced/still going through. It boggles the mind how something like this can be mandated in order to work. It has risks, some serious ones at that too.
I'm still having intermittent chest pains after my Pfizer vaccine. Had bloods done and echo cardiogram but couldn't find any abnormalities. Now waiting to get an MRI. A friend of mine also has confirmed myocarditis due to the vaccine. For a month after the jab I also had paresthesia down the left side of my body which was pretty scary and uncomfortable.
From my experience I would prefer to get covid. At least a dozen unvaccinated family and friends here in Perth have had covid over the past several months and they all recovered within days. While I'm still suffering the effects from this vaccine... I won't be going for my booster either. Quite frankly I'm scared of what long term effects may come to light in the years ahead. Time will tell if these mandates were the right or wrong thing to do. Especially for something that doesn't stop an individual catching or transmitting the virus...

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Old 30th Apr 2022, 22:39
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Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
I am someone who has been injured by the covid-19 vaccines. So before you put it all down to conspiracy theories, at least take the time to read my story:

I worked as a pilot in GA for 12 years, but I havenít flown for about 5 years. I was working behind the desk but I had been toying with getting back in the air once things return to some sort of normal.

I wasnít keen on getting vaccinated, as I have a healthy distrust of the pharmaceutical industry. My father worked for a few companies (Boots/ J& J) in a 20 yr period and he had told me quite a few horrid stories about their unethical behaviour. I am not, however, a conspiracy theorist or joined any protests. I just would prefer to focus on being as healthy as possible.

I had to get vaccinated because of the aviation job I had. I had my first jab in Aug Ď21. A couple of days later I started to get a weird pain in my face. It progressively got more painful and more frequent. Two weeks later and I was in agony. It was seriously the most painful thing I have had in my life. The first night that it was really bad, I couldnít sleep and I sat up all night trying to diagnose myself by googling. I came across mention of facial pain and paralysis as possible side effects from Pfizer, listed on two foreign government websites. Since the timing matched up, I started to wonder whether it was from the vaccine.

I went to a GP. He got me to go to the dentist and check there were no teeth issues. The dentist cleared me and then the GP diagnosed Trigeminal Neuralgia (TN) He prescribed 2 nerve drugs but nothing helped. I found a few medical journal articles mentioning TN resulting from covid vaccines and brought them up with my GP. He said ďI donít know if itís relatedĒ. I asked if I should get the second one and if it would get worse. He provided no help and said ďI donít knowĒ.

The horrid pain persisted on and off, with no relief, except putting a heat bag on my face. They call TN Ďsuicide painí and I can understand why. I did even think that if I had to put up with the pain long term, I would just kill myself.

I decided to try natural therapies to help, as the GP offered nothing except drugs that did not work. I tried quite a few things out of desperation. Not until I went to a Kinesiologist did the pain calm down and subside.

I left the second jab as long as I could, and had it at the end of October. Three hours after the second Pfizer jab, the pain came back. Not only that, the next day it also started on the other side of my face. Then I started getting itchy feet, then burning feet, then my calves would ache or just feel like they were on fire. Then I started getting stinging pain all over my body. Then my thighs started aching or were on fire. Over time the intensity and frequency has increased, and the more of my body is affected. Then I also started getting dizzy after trying a different drug. The dizziness has stayed even though I stopped taking the drug. It appears that it has had some sort of interaction with my vagus nerve, because my nerve system has been damaged. The dizziness doesnít stop and I donít drive.
The more I move the worse the pain is. Most of the time I have some level of pain. I still get the pain in my cheeks, but the pain in my feet and legs is the worst. Sometimes I canít walk or stand up. My legs will feel heavy and on fire. Sometimes I canít sleep.

The more I looked into it the more I realised that neurological problems were a well reported side effect, and articles were appearing in medical journals (including neurology journals) about the connection between the vaccines and nerve problems, which specifically mentioned TN and Small Fibre Neuropathy (SFN). Some were published as early as Feb 2021.

I tried to get an exemption for the booster but I didnít qualify (very few people do). Pain is not sufficient, you have to nearly die. This meant I had to leave my office aviation job, as 3 vaccines were mandated and I couldnít risk doing more harm to my body. I moved states and got a hospitality job, but I realised very quickly that I canít work more than about 10 hrs a week, as all the pain gets worse with the more I am on my feet. I canít do any more exercise than short walks. I canít drive due to the dizziness.

No, I have not seen a neurologist, as I live in a rural area and there are none here. I am waiting on a date which will be in about 9 months, if I am lucky. All the GPs do is suggest different drugs.

My health has been ruined by the vaccines. I have never had any serious health issues before, or any nerve problems before. I have never tried so many horrid and serious drugs before, in desperation, to try and deal with the pain. I canít think straight due to the constant dizziness. I am trying to finish a law degree and I canít focus. I really donít know if I can finish it.

I was not anti-vaxxer, but I would never get anther vaccine - EVER. I should have been able to get an exemption after the first vaccine, as there was sufficient evidence then, to show that it was negatively affecting my nerves. There was sufficient evidence to show that it could negatively affect the human nervous system.

My sister has also had an adverse reaction to the vaccines. She had to have 3 jabs for her job as well. She has neurological problems and they are even worse.

I have lost a job I loved.
I had to move state.
I am spending lots of money trying various alternative treatments.
I am not earning much money because the pain is too great.
I have connected with many other people who have the same symptoms.
Who knows how long it will take to heal, or before I can work more, or drive?
Who knows if I will ever be able to fly again?


So before you assume that everyone is a conspiracy theorist, think of me.

There are also many other people who have been harmed, but the media is not reporting and it looks like the only people against the vaccines are nutters and the anti-mask wearers. They are not.

Sometimes, you really donít know, what you donít know.
When I started reading before you even mentioned Trigeminal Neuralgia I knew it was that. Having experienced this for 3 long years I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I didn't care if I died to ge honest as the pain was that intense.

I can understand you not wanting to get a booster as there does seem to be a link in your case. Having said that, the number of reported adverse events involving neurological involvement is very rare. Not wanting to diminish your experiences, including the other author noting ongoing chest pain, however the reason mandates were brought in at the time was that infective and more importantly the case fatality rate was high. Now, with the omicron variants, the CFR is much lower by factor of 10 to 100 and disease severity is lower. I believe the mandates were necessary at the time. Now, no.

As for side effects, I have witnessed no less than 10 people who have had covid and are dealing with long-Covid. As for vaccine related illness, I know of no one. Not to say it doesn't exist but if you compare the data on covid systemic side effects and long covid to reported adverse side effects from vaccine, the data shows significantly higher adverse events in covid infected vs vaccinated.

Vaccinations work. Yes there will always be risks, but the mRNA vaccines are incredibly safe.
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Old 30th Apr 2022, 23:47
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
I am someone who has been injured by the covid-19 vaccines. So before you put it all down to conspiracy theories, at least take the time to read my story:

I worked as a pilot in GA for 12 years, but I havenít flown for about 5 years. I was working behind the desk but I had been toying with getting back in the air once things return to some sort of normal.

I wasnít keen on getting vaccinated, as I have a healthy distrust of the pharmaceutical industry. My father worked for a few companies (Boots/ J& J) in a 20 yr period and he had told me quite a few horrid stories about their unethical behaviour. I am not, however, a conspiracy theorist or joined any protests. I just would prefer to focus on being as healthy as possible.

I had to get vaccinated because of the aviation job I had. I had my first jab in Aug Ď21. A couple of days later I started to get a weird pain in my face. It progressively got more painful and more frequent. Two weeks later and I was in agony. It was seriously the most painful thing I have had in my life. The first night that it was really bad, I couldnít sleep and I sat up all night trying to diagnose myself by googling. I came across mention of facial pain and paralysis as possible side effects from Pfizer, listed on two foreign government websites. Since the timing matched up, I started to wonder whether it was from the vaccine.

I went to a GP. He got me to go to the dentist and check there were no teeth issues. The dentist cleared me and then the GP diagnosed Trigeminal Neuralgia (TN) He prescribed 2 nerve drugs but nothing helped. I found a few medical journal articles mentioning TN resulting from covid vaccines and brought them up with my GP. He said ďI donít know if itís relatedĒ. I asked if I should get the second one and if it would get worse. He provided no help and said ďI donít knowĒ.

The horrid pain persisted on and off, with no relief, except putting a heat bag on my face. They call TN Ďsuicide painí and I can understand why. I did even think that if I had to put up with the pain long term, I would just kill myself.

I decided to try natural therapies to help, as the GP offered nothing except drugs that did not work. I tried quite a few things out of desperation. Not until I went to a Kinesiologist did the pain calm down and subside.

I left the second jab as long as I could, and had it at the end of October. Three hours after the second Pfizer jab, the pain came back. Not only that, the next day it also started on the other side of my face. Then I started getting itchy feet, then burning feet, then my calves would ache or just feel like they were on fire. Then I started getting stinging pain all over my body. Then my thighs started aching or were on fire. Over time the intensity and frequency has increased, and the more of my body is affected. Then I also started getting dizzy after trying a different drug. The dizziness has stayed even though I stopped taking the drug. It appears that it has had some sort of interaction with my vagus nerve, because my nerve system has been damaged. The dizziness doesnít stop and I donít drive.
The more I move the worse the pain is. Most of the time I have some level of pain. I still get the pain in my cheeks, but the pain in my feet and legs is the worst. Sometimes I canít walk or stand up. My legs will feel heavy and on fire. Sometimes I canít sleep.

The more I looked into it the more I realised that neurological problems were a well reported side effect, and articles were appearing in medical journals (including neurology journals) about the connection between the vaccines and nerve problems, which specifically mentioned TN and Small Fibre Neuropathy (SFN). Some were published as early as Feb 2021.

I tried to get an exemption for the booster but I didnít qualify (very few people do). Pain is not sufficient, you have to nearly die. This meant I had to leave my office aviation job, as 3 vaccines were mandated and I couldnít risk doing more harm to my body. I moved states and got a hospitality job, but I realised very quickly that I canít work more than about 10 hrs a week, as all the pain gets worse with the more I am on my feet. I canít do any more exercise than short walks. I canít drive due to the dizziness.

No, I have not seen a neurologist, as I live in a rural area and there are none here. I am waiting on a date which will be in about 9 months, if I am lucky. All the GPs do is suggest different drugs.

My health has been ruined by the vaccines. I have never had any serious health issues before, or any nerve problems before. I have never tried so many horrid and serious drugs before, in desperation, to try and deal with the pain. I canít think straight due to the constant dizziness. I am trying to finish a law degree and I canít focus. I really donít know if I can finish it.

I was not anti-vaxxer, but I would never get anther vaccine - EVER. I should have been able to get an exemption after the first vaccine, as there was sufficient evidence then, to show that it was negatively affecting my nerves. There was sufficient evidence to show that it could negatively affect the human nervous system.

My sister has also had an adverse reaction to the vaccines. She had to have 3 jabs for her job as well. She has neurological problems and they are even worse.

I have lost a job I loved.
I had to move state.
I am spending lots of money trying various alternative treatments.
I am not earning much money because the pain is too great.
I have connected with many other people who have the same symptoms.
Who knows how long it will take to heal, or before I can work more, or drive?
Who knows if I will ever be able to fly again?


So before you assume that everyone is a conspiracy theorist, think of me.

There are also many other people who have been harmed, but the media is not reporting and it looks like the only people against the vaccines are nutters and the anti-mask wearers. They are not.

Sometimes, you really donít know, what you donít know.
Corelation does not equal causation.
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Old 1st May 2022, 00:19
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz View Post
Corelation does not equal causation.
That is a cold remark.

Given the general state of the medical system in Australia, it is possible that these events are either not being captured, or are being treated with contempt.

The political pressure on the medical system is abhorrent. Add to this a regulatory overlord that threatens de-registration to those who may speak against the mandate.

When an individual has shared his concerning experience we each have a choice or our own.

To Surreal: It is very concerning to hear of your experience, thank you for sharing. I hope you are able to first and foremost recover your quality of life. Then as time goes by, be able to hold a class 1 or worst case class 2Ö. And be able to enjoy some flying again.

PS. To those who choose to cry conspiracy. If anyone ends up ďunluckyĒ to have complications either from the vaccine, or from complications of Covid or Covid like syndrome; letís hope your experience with the medical system meets with your expectations.
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Old 1st May 2022, 02:05
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There is no evidence that any of those symptoms were caused by the covid vaccine, I know a single person who says the vaccine ruined his life and like you he was exceptionally hesitant and now suffers from generalised symptoms with no apparent cause that he has directly attributed to his vaccine. There was a Cardiologist who appeared on the news last week who said that he has had a 170% increase in referrals for cardiac symptoms due to people saying they are experiencing cardiac symptoms post vaccine, he hasn’t found a SINGLE case amongst the vaccine injured where they actually have ANY cardiac implications and said they react very badly when he tells them their heart if fine and they are experiencing anxiety related symptoms. You kind of lost me when you said ‘I stayed up all night to diagnose myself’ and I am having severe neurological symptoms but ‘I haven’t seen a Neurologist as I am rural’. Your story reads the same as the cases of people who are so hesitant that anxiety causes symptoms that are then made worse by more anxiety. I would suggest before you say the vaccine has ruined my life you might actually want to see a neurologist to diagnose if you actually have any neurological problems.
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Old 1st May 2022, 03:29
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Thank you Dr Ollie Onion for diagnosing. I really appreciate your medical expertise.

1. Like most people these days, when you get an unusual symptom, you get on Google and look things up. Thatís what I did. I found 3 things that could have caused the pain - sinus, Trigeminal nerve, or dental. As I was googling, I came across a few medical articles which mentioned Trigeminal Neuralgia and that people had presented to ER after being vaccinated. I raised it to my GP as a possibility. I didnít know. He didnít know. He admitted it was a new vaccine and they just didnít know.

2. The TGA now recognise paresthesia as an adverse reaction to Pfizer, which is one of the symptoms I have.

3. If people canít get into to neurologists for months and months, how is it then neurologists can make a connection? How many people are there like me, who canít get to a specialists and just have clueless GPs offering them drugs. The adverse effect reporting is very basic and captures only a small amount if information from people. Many doctors simply wonít report symptoms if they are not aware of the possibility of connection.

4. The TGA do recognise other neurological conditions as a side effect of the vaccine, one of these is Gullian-Barre syndrome. This is a condition where the immune system attacks the nerves, which can lead to breathing and walking problems. There are mild cases of Gillian-Barre and it could be that I have a mild case. The GP didnít want to label it and wanted that left to a neurologist and after further test.

5. I have collected over 100 medical journals articles on the vaccine and neurological problems, and many mention symptoms exactly like mine.

6. Many people with long haul covid have neurological problems like mine. I havenít had covid. So how do they know the symptoms are from covid and not from the vaccine? How is it that you immediately accept the position that the symptoms are a direct result of covid and yet dismiss the possibility that it came from the vaccine.

7. My symptoms started 2 days after the first vaccine, then came back 3 hrs after the second vaccine. Is that just a coincidence is it?
I have never had nerve problems and I was healthy up until that point.

8. I have been to 4 GPs. And none of them dismissed the possibility the the nerve problems I had were caused by the vaccine, they said they didnít know.

9. In Feb 2021, the Pfizer report on adverse reactions reported 16 350 adverse neurological reactions. I have a copy of the report if anyone would like it. They range from mild to severe.

10. I have never had anxiety in my life.
But thanks to you I can put the pain and dizziness down to anxiety. Iíll just go away and sing kumbayah and everything will be right as rain.

11. You think you have been given the full picture and that we live in a society with a free-flow of information. Thatís not true. There has been a deliberate censorship of adverse reactions, so most people think it is not happening. I met a woman whose immunologist admitted to her that they have been told to deny any connection to the vaccine.
She wouldnít tell me his name, because he told her in confidence.

12. The number of people harmed will eventually come out. Unfortunately, itís only weirdos like MP Craig Kelly and Pauline Hanson who are saying anything at the moment. I wouldnít listen to those people either. If I wasnít sitting here in pain, I probably wouldnít have thought there was an issue. Ultimately, I just want to get better but if I canít even see a neurologist, or if there is not even a consideration that the vaccine harmed my nervous system, how does one even treat it?


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Old 1st May 2022, 06:37
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Very good retort Surreal.

I understand exactly what you are saying.

inwould not wish it on anyone, and some of these responses are devoid of critical thought.

Keep your chin up.
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Old 1st May 2022, 06:55
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No, it just makes no sense that you have lost a job, had your life ruined by these symptoms yet havenít seen a neurologist. If you had gone to a neurologist prior to requiring a Ďboosterí and they had said the vaccine had not likely been the cause of your issue would you have then taken the shot and kept your job? I am very sorry that you have had these issues but you canít just label it a vaccine injury, you admitted you were hesitent and stressed about getting the second shot and felt pressured to get it, what if your condition is triggered by stress and not the vaccine itself? You didnít get an exemption because you obviously didnít meet the conditions for showing you had an adverse reaction. You stated that you donít trust the Government, Medical Professionals or the Pharmaceutical Industry and will never take another vaccine again yet you say you are not an anti vaxxer despit using their most common saying ĎI have done my own researchí. I hope you get diagnosed and find effective treatment, you might be vaccine injured but it needs to be proven as just like was said above Correlation is not causation.
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Old 1st May 2022, 06:56
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Although itís not disputed that vaccine complications exist, it is also not disputed that the complications from a vaccine happen at a far lower rate than those same complications when infected with Covid.

Myocarditis is at least 6 times more common in Covid infection than vaccination. Other studies put it up to 30 times as higher.

Neuropathy? 4 times higher in infection vs vaccination.

I would say if the poster had gotten infected with Covid without vaccination the susceptibility of them to develop neuropathy or myocarditis from Covid infection would have been at least the same as from Covid vaccination, except in greater severity due to a more severe disease.

Itís a bit of a moot point, vaccination rates at 97-98% of adults across the nation. The public has made their choice.
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Old 1st May 2022, 07:25
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Whenever you multiply a very small number (chance of something happening) by a very large one (number of people exposed) you’ll get a result greater than 1. It’s just basic maths.

I have absolutely no doubt there are people who were (are) severely injured by the Vaccines, because with such a large global distribution, those “1 in a Million” or eve “1 in a Hundred Million” risk factors will result in cases higher than 1.
I also have no doubt that the numbers of Genuine Vaccine injured people are less than number of people severely injured (or killed) by the virus… but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

On face value, surreals experience looks quite genuine. Again, there are legitimate cases of Vaccine injuries out there… so unless they have a posting history littered with Anti Vaxx quackery, I don’t believe anyone should dismiss their experience outright.

2 years into this Pandemic I haven’t met a single person who has been Vaccine injured beyond the usual side effects.
I also don’t know a single person who has died of the Virus or even hospitalised by it. Though I do know a few who were quite sick, but at home.

Our own anecdotal experiences are quite limited and we’d do well to remember that. But I can’t ignore the fact, that the few anti-vaxxers I know through work happen to personally know dozens of Vaccine injured individuals. What are the chances?
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Old 1st May 2022, 08:49
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It’s a bit of a moot point, vaccination rates at 97-98% of adults across the nation. The public has made their choice.
Actually I suspect in many cases the politicians have made the choice for them via mandates
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Old 1st May 2022, 09:22
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If anyone actually thinks the rate of 95%+ was achieved free from coercion, you're kidding yourself.
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Old 1st May 2022, 10:07
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Originally Posted by dreamjob View Post
If anyone actually thinks the rate of 95%+ was achieved free from coercion, you're kidding yourself.
The Melbourne Uni Vaccine Hesitancy Tracker had the percentage of Australians unwilling to be vaccinated at 6% of 18+ and unsure at 3% when they finished up in December last year. Although mandates did probably convince some to get a vaccine whereas prior they would have been hesitant we got 90% of the nation vaccinated of their own accord, and big drops in hesitancy were seen at points like more Pfizer becoming available and as more people saw others get vaccinated without adverse consequence.

And no one was ďcoercedĒ, you could choose not to get vaccinated and accept the potential loss of employment with that choice. Would you say denial of childcare spaces and government benefits to those parents who chose not to get their children vaccinated per the required schedule was ďcoercionĒ?

This is a debate that was concluded months ago. Be thankful Australia copped a softer blow than a lot of other places.
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