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Covid Vaccines and Pilots

Old 19th Dec 2022, 08:25
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bend alot
If you read the full decision - This is what was said.

"I am not prepared, in the absence of appropriate evidence, to simply conclude that the Policy is reasonable and/or lawful or proportionate as a workplace health and safety response to the risks presented by COVID 19.
There was no appropriate evidence presented in the case because the mandate itself was not on trial. A judge will not make a judgement on something that isn’t relevant to the case or isn’t even part of the case.

& This

​​​​​​"However, I also give significant weight to the fact that a vaccination policy such as that included in the Policy intrudes on one’s right to bodily integrity if it is complied with. The practical effect of the Policy is to place pressure on an employee to give up this fundamental right, given that non-compliance is accompanied by potential disciplinary consequences that include termination of employment. This weighs against the Policy being assessed as reasonable."​
Of course a vaccine mandate intrudes on bodily integrity. That doesn’t mean it isn’t legal, the judge himself said that mandates are reasonable actions.

We already surrender bodily autonomy. It is a requirement for a pilot holding a class 1 medical to submit a part of their body (their blood) to the government every several years to see if their cholesterol and sugar levels aren’t so high as to indicate a medical problem. In this case the right to bodily autonomy is overruled by the greater r interests of safety.

That person had a medical exemption that was apparently not considered, and the payout was related to improper consultation and process. The judge did not make a ruling on the legality of the mandate itself. The case also noted the teacher could work remotely as a factor in the judgement, which is not an option for most airline workers.

As the links I posted above show there were several cases challenging the mandates themselves, in those case the judges upheld the mandates as being reasonable and in compliance with all the applicable laws.
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Old 19th Dec 2022, 11:51
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
What is the point, no one who is anti mandate or vax seems to have the ability to understand and trust science anyway.
Couldn’t agree more.
There are a few pilots at the Roo that have been shown the door because of their recalcitrance. One decided to post some claptrap on YT and we all know how that ended.
Why is it that a few amongst us refuse to admit that the science is irrefutable? Why do these same people pilot an aircraft, placing absolute trust in the aeronautical engineers whom designed and built it together with the licensed engineers that keep the thing safe, yet refuse to acknowledge that the science of Covid and the associated vaccines are effective in limiting deaths and severe illness is well understood. Why do they believe that they alone know better than some of the smartest people on the planet yet with little or no education beyond HSC. Do these same folk have degrees in medicine, immunology or pharmacology? Doctorates? Professors of Virology? Have they spent decades studying? Can they think critically? No, they suffer from confirmation bias searching for any fringe article written by dubious authors to reinforce preconceived conspiracy theories founded in Dunning Krueger effect dazzled with their own brilliance.
Your theories are no longer relevant and this thread has run its course. Still out in the wilderness are we. I’ve been back flying for two years so whose the fool here? I’m just glad it’s all over and time to move on.
2023 should be a better year.
Cheers.
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Old 19th Dec 2022, 22:25
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Originally Posted by Troo believer
Couldn’t agree more.
There are a few pilots at the Roo that have been shown the door because of their recalcitrance. One decided to post some claptrap on YT and we all know how that ended.
Why is it that a few amongst us refuse to admit that the science is irrefutable? Why do these same people pilot an aircraft, placing absolute trust in the aeronautical engineers whom designed and built it together with the licensed engineers that keep the thing safe, yet refuse to acknowledge that the science of Covid and the associated vaccines are effective in limiting deaths and severe illness is well understood. Why do they believe that they alone know better than some of the smartest people on the planet yet with little or no education beyond HSC. Do these same folk have degrees in medicine, immunology or pharmacology? Doctorates? Professors of Virology? Have they spent decades studying? Can they think critically? No, they suffer from confirmation bias searching for any fringe article written by dubious authors to reinforce preconceived conspiracy theories founded in Dunning Krueger effect dazzled with their own brilliance.
Your theories are no longer relevant and this thread has run its course. Still out in the wilderness are we. I’ve been back flying for two years so whose the fool here? I’m just glad it’s all over and time to move on.
2023 should be a better year.
Cheers.
Failures in aviation science are dramatic and get plastered all over the country side, and the media. Failures in medical science are quietly buried one by one.

For further research: “Why Most Published Research Findings Are False”. https://journals.plos.org/plosmedici...l.pmed.0020124
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Old 19th Dec 2022, 22:34
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
He supports a very small minority of Qantas pilots who share his mis-informed view. Has he enquired how MOST Qantas pilots feel about working with people who won't minimize the chance of spreading infection?

Top tip- if Malcolm Roberts is the best you can do, you might want to re-think your stance...
Cats and dogs and most other animals can spread the “infection”. Wizofoz, did you give a vaccine to your cat ?

I think the meme that the unvaxed will spread the china virus any more than the vaxed is now well understood to be debunked.. its only just the bots don’t know it by now..
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Old 19th Dec 2022, 22:46
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Originally Posted by brokenagain
After the events in Queensland last week, Senator Roberts might want to be careful which cookers he hitches his wagon up to in his opportunistic chase for votes (albeit from a very small percentage of the total population).
Yer saying he should avoid school teachers with mental illness..

Perhaps the senator should be pushing for all school teachers to be checked for mental illness… or maybe he’s not so stupid as to try to tie the actions a couple of school teachers to all the others.

The government and media created hysteria over the Tara incident is looking more and more as being used as a diverter to the vaccine cluster-fleck..
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Old 19th Dec 2022, 22:56
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
Why would anyone bother? You'll just counter with a link to Infowars and believe that instead.
Seems yer caint find it, eh..

It used to be that new vaccines took 8 to 10 years to pass all the required tests. It used to be that no legal indemnities were given to vaccine manufacturers. It used to be that at least some common sense were used……

…………Suddenly, we have a new fully tested vaccine ready to go in 6 months… but, we just need to give full legal indemnity to the manufactures and then they can give us all a dose right now..

Yer gotta give-’em credit. Them bridge salesmen of the twentieth century have evolved to be the vaccine salesmen of the 21st century..
.



​​​​​​​

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Old 20th Dec 2022, 00:21
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.news.com.au/technology/s...5f5bf852a382cf

Nothing to see here.
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Old 20th Dec 2022, 01:33
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
It used to be that new vaccines took 8 to 10 years to pass all the required tests.
Why do YOU think they took that amount of time?
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Old 20th Dec 2022, 02:44
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer
Why do YOU think they took that amount of time?
The reasons why the time period for the vaccine trial was shortened have been well explained multiple times over the course of the pandemic. Those questions have been answered yet anti-vaxxers still pretend they’ve found a huge problem that “no one will answer”:

Here’s How It Was Possible to Develop COVID-19 Vaccines So Quickly
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Old 20th Dec 2022, 02:46
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Originally Posted by dr dre
The reasons why the time period for the vaccine trial was shortened have been well explained multiple times over the course of the pandemic. Those questions have been answered yet anti-vaxxers still pretend they’ve found a huge problem that “no one will answer”:

Here’s How It Was Possible to Develop COVID-19 Vaccines So Quickly
Yeah, I know, I know. Just indulging the chap.
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Old 20th Dec 2022, 03:06
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Originally Posted by dr dre
The reasons why the time period for the vaccine trial was shortened have been well explained multiple times over the course of the pandemic. Those questions have been answered yet anti-vaxxers still pretend they’ve found a huge problem that “no one will answer”:

Here’s How It Was Possible to Develop COVID-19 Vaccines So Quickly
Lets pull a few quotes from that article:

“..There was a lot of money that was freed up and moved to the places where research was being done,” Burton told Healthline..


..it typically takes 10 to 15 years for a vaccine to come to fruition.



..The COVID-19 vaccines that are currently available in the United States were granted emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). They’re not fully approved.

“The reason that there is not a full licensure given to the vaccines is essentially because we have very limited time in understanding… the mid-term and long-term benefits of the vaccine in the individuals that were vaccinated,”..”


Seems I were wrong with me 8 to 10 years approval time frame.. Oh well, can’t be right all the time..

dr dre, perhaps you best ask the question why, if these vaccines are so well researched, the manufactures are granted full legal indemnity ?

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Old 20th Dec 2022, 03:31
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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
Lets pull a few quotes from that article:

Seems I were wrong with me 8 to 10 years approval time frame.. Oh well, can’t be right all the time..
This isn’t cutting corners. Rather, it’s an extensive standard review process that is expedited, he said.

The standards could never be compromised even under an emergency authorization use of the vaccines; the data integrity is there and the safety of the participants is paramount,”
Burton pointed out that in the fall of 2020, the Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech, and Johnson & Johnson vaccine trials all paused due to a safety signal.

“[The] truth is, that is part of the clinical trial process… we have people watching for any sign or symptom from the individuals that are in the trial, and the fact is that when we see something that meets the criteria, we [pause] the study… It’s integral to the design of every single study and shows that the process is working,” she said.

At one point in the trial the use was halted due a concern, the concern was addressed and the trial resumed. This is exactly how it’s meant to be.

“The reason that there is not a full licensure given to the vaccines is essentially because we have very limited time in understanding… the mid-term and long-term benefits of the vaccine in the individuals that were vaccinated

The key word is benefits. They know from the trials the vaccine is safe. But the long term efficiency over a large scale was partially unknown. The early indications were it would be effective at reducing severe disease. So it was assessed as safe and probably effective enough to put into mass production. And it worked.

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Old 20th Dec 2022, 03:32
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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
Lets pull a few quotes from that article: “..There was a lot of money that was freed up and moved to the places where research was being done,” Burton told Healthline.. ..it typically takes 10 to 15 years for a vaccine to come to fruition. ..The COVID-19 vaccines that are currently available in the United States were granted emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). They’re not fully approved. “The reason that there is not a full licensure given to the vaccines is essentially because we have very limited time in understanding… the mid-term and long-term benefits of the vaccine in the individuals that were vaccinated,”..” Seems I were wrong with me 8 to 10 years approval time frame.. Oh well, can’t be right all the time.. dr dre, perhaps you best ask the question why, if these vaccines are so well researched, the manufactures are granted full legal indemnity ?
​​​​​​​you're a ****. I suspect you didn't even read the article. You conveniently left out all the references to not compromising on safety or cutting corners....This isn’t cutting corners. Rather, it’s an extensive standard review process that is expedited, he said.

Regulatory agencies in the world look at two things:
  1. The safety of the participants and that they wouldn’t be compromised under an emergency use authorization.
  2. The data quality and data integrity of any submissions to the agencies.
“The standards could never be compromised even under an emergency authorization use of the vaccines.

You're an embarassment to critical thinking and proper analysis. So you lost your job in aviation hey? Comalco aluminium smelter in Gladstone are looking for workers at the moment. Not sure on their vaccine requirements however.
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Old 20th Dec 2022, 04:38
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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
Lets pull a few quotes from that article:

“..There was a lot of money that was freed up and moved to the places where research was being done,” Burton told Healthline..


..it typically takes 10 to 15 years for a vaccine to come to fruition.



..The COVID-19 vaccines that are currently available in the United States were granted emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). They’re not fully approved.

“The reason that there is not a full licensure given to the vaccines is essentially because we have very limited time in understanding… the mid-term and long-term benefits of the vaccine in the individuals that were vaccinated,”..”


Seems I were wrong with me 8 to 10 years approval time frame.. Oh well, can’t be right all the time..

dr dre, perhaps you best ask the question why, if these vaccines are so well researched, the manufactures are granted full legal indemnity ?

The normal approval time frame is only that long because of 2 factors:
1 - Funding, it takes a lot of time to raise the billions required for a 3 stage approval
2 - Disease! You need outbreaks of the disease that are big enough and consistent enough to actually run the trials. The MERs vaccine never progressed to approval as by the time they were ready for trials the disease had killed itself off.

With Covid we had both, the funding was enormous and plentiful, the disease was everywhere, no shortage of people to participate in the trials, no steps were skips or shortcut.

Pretending otherwise is scaremongering just like your selective quoting. These RNA vaccines were under development for years with the biggest area of research being the vaccination and treatment of Cancer, the most promising of these had stalled as they needed to raise over $3bn for the trial stages, thankfully Covid had super accelerated this area and we have just seen the first mRNA vaccine for Melanoma enter its last stage trials. I assume you will also be reluctant to take advantage of the cancer saving vaccines developed as a direct result of the Covid research and funding?
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Old 20th Dec 2022, 05:30
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https://www.instagram.com/jab_injuries_australia


Have a read of these and tell me again how good these jabs are please!
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Old 20th Dec 2022, 05:34
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Former federal MP Dr Kerryn Phelps has revealed she and her wife both suffered serious and ongoing injures from Covid vaccines, while suggesting the true rate of adverse events is far higher than acknowledged due to underreporting and “threats” from medical regulators.

In an explosive submission to Parliament’s Long Covid inquiry, the former Australian Medical Association (AMA) president has broken her silence about the “devastating” experience — emerging as the most prominent public health figure in the country to speak up about the taboo subject.

“This is an issue that I have witnessed first-hand with my wife who suffered a severe neurological reaction to her first Pfizer vaccine within minutes, including burning face and gums, paraesethesiae, and numb hands and feet, while under observation by myself, another doctor and a registered ®️ nurse at the time of immunisation,” the 65-year-old said.

“I continue to observe the devastating effects a year-and-a-half later with the addition of fatigue and additional neurological symptoms including nerve pains, altered sense of smell, visual disturbance and musculoskeletal inflammation. The diagnosis and causation has been confirmed by several specialists who have told me that they have seen ‘a lot’ of patients in a similar situation.”

Dr Phelps married former primary school teacher Jackie Stricker-Phelps in 1998.

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Old 20th Dec 2022, 06:17
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Phelps was always seen as a bit of an outlier within medicine (she promoted homeopathy) and has been concentrating on politics for 20 years, rather than epidemiology. news.com.au is a very sensationalist site and it’s noteworthy that apart from them and the Daily Fail other more sensible media are not reporting this, or waiting to see how the actual wealth of knowledge from immunologists will respond.

Unlike anti vaxxers who immediately latch onto anything they think confirms their beliefs, I’ll wait for a while and see what the experts say, but I’ll note that nowhere in Phelp’s submission (which doesn’t include any verified references, just a few anecdotes), does she say she wants Covid vaccinations stopped. She is actually encouraging children to receive Covid boosters. And she says she wants to go even further with Covid restrictions, look at re-introducing masks, isolation and partial lockdowns as required.

What she said re vaccines was more on the grounds that those with an adverse reaction should receive a bit more care. Now no proper medico has ever said that vaccines are 100% safe, but the risks of being infected with Covid are much higher. Like myocarditis. The way anti-vaxxers carried on you’d think every second person was getting myocarditis from Pfizer. There were some cases, but it was estimated the risk of myocarditis from Covid infection was 6-8 times more likely, and the cases were generally more severe.

So cookers I’m afraid this doesn’t back up your theories, just like how every other time you’ve found a news article in the last two years that you are convinced “proves” Covid is a hoax/vaccines are dangerous etc doesn’t.

Here’s the OzSAGE (a group of doctors whom Phelps is a board member of) press release today stating children under 5 should get Covid boosters. Phelps’s comments today were not anti vax.


Last edited by dr dre; 20th Dec 2022 at 06:42.
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Old 20th Dec 2022, 06:39
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
The normal approval time frame is only that long because of 2 factors:
1 - Funding, it takes a lot of time to raise the billions required for a 3 stage approval
2 - Disease! You need outbreaks of the disease that are big enough and consistent enough to actually run the trials. The MERs vaccine never progressed to approval as by the time they were ready for trials the disease had killed itself off.

With Covid we had both, the funding was enormous and plentiful, the disease was everywhere, no shortage of people to participate in the trials, no steps were skips or shortcut.

Pretending otherwise is scaremongering just like your selective quoting. These RNA vaccines were under development for years with the biggest area of research being the vaccination and treatment of Cancer, the most promising of these had stalled as they needed to raise over $3bn for the trial stages, thankfully Covid had super accelerated this area and we have just seen the first mRNA vaccine for Melanoma enter its last stage trials. I assume you will also be reluctant to take advantage of the cancer saving vaccines developed as a direct result of the Covid research and funding?
Seems you have not been keeping up with developments:

Press Conference: Dr. Aseem Malhotra’s New Peer-Reviewed Paper Calls for Immediate and “Complete Suspension” of Covid-19 Vaccine



“..The World Council for Health hosted a press conference in London on September 27, 2022 featuring one of Britain’s most influential cardiologists:

Dr. Malhotra presented on his new peer-reviewed paper published in the Journal of Insulin Resistance

…real-world data reveals that in the non-elderly population the number needed to vaccinate to prevent one death from Covid-19 runs into thousands and that re-analysis of randomized controlled trial data suggests a greater risk of suffering a serious adverse event from the vaccine than to be hospitalized with Covid-19.

Dr Aseem Malhotra is an award-winning Consultant Cardiologist, Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, and President of the Scientific Advisory Committee – The Public Health Collaboration. Dr. Malhotra is an internationally renowned expert in the prevention, diagnosis and management of heart disease. His areas of expertise include evidence based medicine and collaborative shared decision-making with patients. Aseem Malhotra is also an honorary council member to the Metabolic Psychiatry Clinic at Stanford University school of medicine California..”

https://worldcouncilforhealth.org/mu...ss-conference/
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Old 20th Dec 2022, 06:47
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Originally Posted by HappyBandit
you're a ****. I suspect you didn't even read the article. You conveniently left out all the references to not compromising on safety or cutting corners....This isn’t cutting corners. Rather, it’s an extensive standard review process that is expedited, he said.

Regulatory agencies in the world look at two things:
  1. The safety of the participants and that they wouldn’t be compromised under an emergency use authorization.
  2. The data quality and data integrity of any submissions to the agencies.
“The standards could never be compromised even under an emergency authorization use of the vaccines.

You're an embarassment to critical thinking and proper analysis. So you lost your job in aviation hey? Comalco aluminium smelter in Gladstone are looking for workers at the moment. Not sure on their vaccine requirements however.
Hmmm… a certain Dr Malhotra would disagree. He would likely suggest if the vaccine development were properly done and not rushed with corners cut that it likely would only have been allowed to be used in the aged at their own risk. Certainly not approved for general usage until all proper trails were completed satisfactorily.

There are good reasons why vaccine trails normally take 10 or so years to be completed..
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Old 20th Dec 2022, 06:57
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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
Seems you have not been keeping up with developments:

Press Conference: Dr. Aseem Malhotra’s New Peer-Reviewed Paper Calls for Immediate and “Complete Suspension” of Covid-19 Vaccine

Debunked here:

The Aseem Malhotra lecture isn’t what you think it is

Article by cardiologist Aseem Malhotra made unsupported claims about the benefits and risks of COVID-19 vaccination

He isn’t convincing anyone apart from cookers.

And digging more into this guy he has a very chequered background. Basically a Dr Oz, promoting his “Low Carb, High Fat” diet books and claiming that diet would decrease the severity of Covid. Quack is a perfect definition for this guy.

Aseem Malhotra
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