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QF mandates Vaccine

Old 12th Sep 2021, 05:27
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
I'm not trying to make a point about Covid vaccines.

I've been trying to make a point about why healthy scepticism is justified - the clue is in the word 'healthy' and why it is counter-productive to accuse any sceptic of being a conspiracy theorist or anti-vaxxer or both. And for some reason people seem to pick the bits out of my posts that suit their argument and ignore the other bits.

Let's take a simple and factual example. The NSW CHO takes a different view to the QLD CHO as to the age group which may appropriately be given the AZ vaccine. Why is that?

I'm not suggesting a 'conspiracy' or 'corruption' or that one of the CHOs is a lizard person from the planet Coosebane. If they are both looking at the same data, how do they come to a different view? If they are looking at different data, why are they looking at different data?

If the explanation is that they just come to different views based on the same data but make different judgments about the risks and rewards implicit in the data, then - please - don't come here anonymously and make absolute statements about what everyone should believe and accuse anyone who's sceptical about that of being a conspiracy theorist or an anti-vaxxer.
Any data set is open to different interpretations.
One of the big mistakes of this whole period has been too many voices.
It has lead to an understandable confusion about what is the real message. Because there hasn’t been one.
ATAGI should have provided advise to the government on the AZ vaccine behind closed doors and the Government should have made the political , I stress political ,decision about what to do with it. But they didn’t. Really really dumb.
But that doesn’t mean the science is wrong.
Just very badly presented and managed.

Last edited by Grumpy retiree; 12th Sep 2021 at 05:59.
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 05:48
  #422 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Grumpy retiree
Any data set is open to different interpretations.
One of the big mistakes of this whole period has been too many voices.
It has lead to an understandable confusion about what is the real message. Because there hasnít been one
ATAGI should have provide advise to the government on the AZ vaccine behind closed doors and the Government should have made the politic , I stress political ,decision about what to do with it. But they didnít. Really really dumb.
But that doesnít mean the science is wrong.
Just very badly presented and managed.
I agree, entirely.
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 09:34
  #423 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Grumpy retiree
OK Muttley , Iíll declare an interest.
My father , grandfather and brother were all Doctors.
I am the odd one out . I only have a humble BSc and 35 year career in aviation.
Have you the faintest idea what it takes to become a Doctor , especially a Specialist ?
Specialist? I thought you were recommending a GP.

It's funny you ask that, Grumps, as I happen to have visited my GP less than a week ago. It also happens I asked her where she got her degree:
UQ, she said
How long did it take?
Four years, she said, for her MD and then four years of internship or whatever. That's eight years, then they let her loose...... as a GP, which is who you suggested people should see for their immunological advice. Now you're on about specialists. Sorry but you aren't consistent there.

Originally Posted by dr dre
An immunologist, virologist, or vaccine specialist can. And theyíll tell you taking the vaccine is safe and necessary.
Grumps suggested we ask our GPs, not any of those specialists, for advice including, I presume, on what will happen in the years following an injection. I don't know about you but most people probably don't have access to an immunologist, a virologist, or a vaccine specialist but I can tell you that some of those people will say the opposite to what you said when you spoke for them. I know a biochemist and a pharmacologist who both disagree with you but I suppose they're cranks. I wonder how they got this far in their fields while thinking the earth is flat.

Grumps, did you happen to get your BSc from the public purse at a now-defunct off-campus establishment? UNSW?
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 09:41
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OK Muttley,
You win.
You are clearly beyond help or reason.
I sometimes get a panicky feeling that society is in real trouble when I interact with certain types on the internet.
Bye.
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 09:42
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Originally Posted by Muttley Crew

I know a biochemist and a pharmacologist who both disagree with you but I suppose they're cranks. I wonder how they got this far in their fields while thinking the earth is flat.
Alright, have any credible groups of biochemists or pharmacologists or any other discipline published these concerns backed up by verified data?
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 10:46
  #426 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre
Alright, have any credible groups of biochemists or pharmacologists or any other discipline published these concerns backed up by verified data?
Again, you ignored my question:

The NSW CHO takes a different view to the QLD CHO as to the age group which may appropriately be given the AZ vaccine. Why is that?
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 11:16
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
The NSW CHO takes a different view to the QLD CHO as to the age group which may appropriately be given the AZ vaccine. Why is that?
Protecting the population against a transmissible virus is not an exact science, just as forecasting weather never can be.

There are a myriad of factors at play that determine health professionals' advice. State Chief Health Officers/medicos are public servants (not politicians). Their job is to provide the best available evidence and opinion to health ministers, whom then choose what to do with it.

I worked in this system for many years. I don't like all that I see and the associated political decisions, but that's the system we have. Prior to covid, most politicians listened very little to the scientific experts. They are certainly following more expert advice than prior to covid's arrival, and this I commend, because without this most politicians are absolutely out of their depth.
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 11:50
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No shit? Good for you!

And which out of the QLD CHO and the NSW CHO should we trust in their judgment as to the age group who may safely take AZ?
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 12:02
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Didn't the Qld CHO state that in her opinion it would be criminal to give AZ to anyone under 40? My understanding is that with a State of Emergency declared the politicians must follow the advice of the CHO. So no political pressure at all being applied.
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 14:05
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Originally Posted by itsnotthatbloodyhard
No, the real problem with Ivermectin is that even Merck, the company that makes the stuff, says it shouldnít be used for Covid
Snot, Snot, Snot, it is conventional, logical and the well-established precedent that until a product is determined by due process to have a particular desired quality, it is understood to not have the quality and I suppose the available literature will explain this so I'm not sure why you're surprised by those statements.

You'll be pleased to know the TGA has now banned the prescription of Ivermectin out of concern people (except you lot) might not want a dodgy vaccine if there is an effective treatment for the condition using a so-called "wonderdrug." It is not wacko conspiracy theorisim to suggest the big pharma crowd enjoy seeing Ivermectin banned, it is free market economics. Lobbying, influence, kickbacks, job placement, preferential treatment, bribery, etc happen all the time including in our first world. For another aviation parallel, look at the USAF tanker project and what was done to ensure the outcome.

It's also not wackery to think big pharma will encourage the belief that Ivermectin doesn't work (but their pricey vaccines do). I'm sorry to break it to you, Snot, but no one is manufacturing these vaccines out of conviction that the survival of YOUR genes is vital to humanity. They're doing it for cash. Disease is big money. Didn't you read the memo?? Cui bono.

Originally Posted by dr dre
Alright, have any credible groups of biochemists or pharmacologists or any other discipline published these concerns backed up by verified data?
Let's not be silly, please. As of course you know, it is not their professional role to publish but it is their ethical role to raise their concerns and they have done so and you have seen, and obviously swallowed, the result. I'll see what they will share regarding their approach to the regulators and the result. In the meantime, I wish I had your unthinking conviction regarding everything we're told by the system.

Originally Posted by Grumpy retiree
You win.
Bye.
Thank you. Bye.
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 18:08
  #431 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
The NSW CHO takes a different view to the QLD CHO as to the age group which may appropriately be given the AZ vaccine. Why is that?
It's a risk assesment scenario, if I said you had to jump into the back of a moving car, you would say that's dangerous and probably not do it, but if you were being chased by a rabid dog you wouldn't hesitate to jump on in.
In this case however NSW is being chased by a dog while QLD isn't. So they come up with different risk assessments.

As in all things in life there is always an element of risk, in this instance it is about managing the risk to provide the safest outcome. If there was zero covid in the world the risk of having a complication from a vaccine for covid would always make it less safe than not having it at all, but as covid is well and truly around for the next little while the risk of not being vaccinated is greater than being vaccinated and so the safest option is to take the vaccine.

Somewhere between the 2 options is where Australia (up until recently) sat, it didn't have Covid and so any vaccine is a greater risk, but it also had a high chance of Covid arriving. And so the medical people tried to balance the risk by limiting the AZ shots while they waited for Pfizer. Unfortunately Covid arrived before Pfizer and so they changed the advise on AZ to meet the greater threat.
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 19:14
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer
Good analogy. I donít need the GP to design a vaccine for me. They just need to be able to explain how it works. Given the average GP clinic dishes out vaccines all the time for various things, itís likely explaining a vaccine is exactly what they can do. Just like an airline pilot can explain how all the lift devices work.

We donít. But your arguments against vaccines ainít making it. And you donít like it.
Here is a explanation from a doctor pre COVID 19 , he is not a GP but has a Vaccination Clinic in the UK for kids.

His book on the subject (also pre COVID 19) has all references linked if you wish to buy it.

https://www.france24.com/en/20181025...seases-measles
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 21:00
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Originally Posted by rmcdonal
It's a risk assesment scenario, if I said you had to jump into the back of a moving car, you would say that's dangerous and probably not do it, but if you were being chased by a rabid dog you wouldn't hesitate to jump on in.
In this case however NSW is being chased by a dog while QLD isn't. So they come up with different risk assessments.

As in all things in life there is always an element of risk, in this instance it is about managing the risk to provide the safest outcome. If there was zero covid in the world the risk of having a complication from a vaccine for covid would always make it less safe than not having it at all, but as covid is well and truly around for the next little while the risk of not being vaccinated is greater than being vaccinated and so the safest option is to take the vaccine.

Somewhere between the 2 options is where Australia (up until recently) sat, it didn't have Covid and so any vaccine is a greater risk, but it also had a high chance of Covid arriving. And so the medical people tried to balance the risk by limiting the AZ shots while they waited for Pfizer. Unfortunately Covid arrived before Pfizer and so they changed the advise on AZ to meet the greater threat.
So you'd say, then, that if the QLD CHO and the NSW CHO swapped states, the NSW CHO would change her view to that of the QLD CHO, as a consequence of the prevailing circumstances in QLD, and the QLD CHO would change her view to that of the NSW CHO, as a consequence of the prevailing circumstances in NSW? The only differences in their judgments is - in your view - as a consequence of objective differences in the risks arising from the circumstances prevailing in the different states?
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 22:18
  #434 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Muttley Crew

You'll be pleased to know the TGA has now banned the prescription of Ivermectin out of concern people (except you lot) might not want a dodgy vaccine if there is an effective treatment for the condition using a so-called "wonderdrug." It is not wacko conspiracy theorisim to suggest the big pharma crowd enjoy seeing Ivermectin banned, .
Yes, yes it is a whacko conspicacy theory. You rreally think if they could cure this thing they wouldn't? You want to follow the money? What do the rich and powerful want? They want this over so they can get the surfs back into the mill. If there was a magic bullet, they'd be all over it- to the extent that the likes of Clive Palmer INVENTS magic bullets in his head.

Your tin hat us in the mail.

Last edited by Wizofoz; 12th Sep 2021 at 23:14.
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 22:54
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Originally Posted by Muttley Crew

You'll be pleased to know the TGA has now banned the prescription of Ivermectin out of concern people (except you lot) might not want a dodgy vaccine if there is an effective treatment for the condition using a so-called "wonderdrug.".
This isnít true, the prescription of Ivermectin has not been banned.
https://www.tga.gov.au/media-release...ectin-covid-19
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 00:32
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Mutley , please donít think that was any sort of complement.
I just cant be bothered anymore.
Iím comforted by the fact that the anti-vaxx movement is self limitingÖÖ..
Oh , and just for the record my BSc is from an old fashioned sandstone University way back in the 70s.
A boring conventional education.
Maybe you should try itÖ.
Oh , wait a minuteÖÖ..

Last edited by Grumpy retiree; 13th Sep 2021 at 05:31.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 00:51
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Mutley, no one cares what you think, get jabbed or donít. If you donít your life will be restricted in what you can or canít do, if you are happy with that then all power to youÖ. Enjoy.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 02:50
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If you're above me in seniority Muttley I think it very important you stick with your convictions and don't get jabbed. Can't trust those doctors you know. Maybe make a video about it
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 03:16
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Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat
If you're above me in seniority Muttley I think it very important you stick with your convictions and don't get jabbed. Can't trust those doctors you know. Maybe make a video about it
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 05:54
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The vaccine this derived from was terminated Worldwide in a 2 week period starting April 2016 and case numbers are growing.
Below from the WHO - The vaccine was one of the Polio ones, it was very successful until it became the new threat. This derived version has been recorded as active in 2 humans for 6 years on the small test number subjects. Given the termination date of that vaccine and the case numbers in 2020, I think it is fair to say the data should be reviewed on this Polio variant.

"A global update on circulating vaccine-derived poliovirus type 2 (cVDPV2) outbreaks and events is summarized below, as of February 2021.

In 2020, 959 human cases of circulating vaccine-derived poliovirus type 2 (cVDPV2) and 411 cVDPV2-positive environmental samples were reported globally from 27 countries, of which 21 countries were from the African Region and six countries from reported from the regions of the Eastern Mediterranean, Europe and the Western Pacific. The number of cVDPV cases and environmental samples increased in 2020 compared to 2019 when 366 cVDPV2 cases and 173 cVDPV2-positive environmental samples were reported."

https://www.who.int/emergencies/dise...-global-update

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