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Old 1st Nov 2021, 02:25
  #8721 (permalink)  
 
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If you have communal systems such as health and you demand a choice of opting in or out and are free to do so that is Libertarian. If the system demands you participate with no choice then that is Totalitarian and on into Fascism.
So Medicare is evidence of a Totalitarian state? I cannot opt out of it...
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 04:20
  #8722 (permalink)  
 
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I was pointing at the two opposite ends of the spectrum. Modern democracies sit in the middle somewhere but lean to the left, so you get a mix of everything. It's quite obvious that there will be things that have to be forced on people, ie don't kill your neighbour, otherwise you are forced into jail. Something like medicare is a simple argument that the whole population must be in it or the system doesn't work. Should it have been farmed out as a separate 'tax', well that's political, as making you see how much it costs makes you feel like you don't need it and encourage moves towards privatisation and user pays systems. If the tax system also gave you a bill for our defense budget you would feel the same so they don't play with that so they can adjust it at will.

The other option to medicare is insurance based user pays, which in the US is pretty much un-affordable by the lower socioeconomic populations. So they just take their chances uninsured and usually with no way to afford the medical bills.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 11:18
  #8723 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
I suggest you brush up on your definitions as Marxism, socialism, and Libertinism are not what you are describing here. The opposite to a socialist style health system is user pays, either out of your own pocket or the insurance company's.

Meanwhile I read that the lunacy of Australian State Borders is continuing where you can now fly half way around the world but not within your own country. This then begs the question of how legal the state border restrictions have become. Are we going to start following the constitution or are we now 7 independent countries?
Perhaps you should re-read the Constitution. Yes, in s92 it guarantees free movement between the States, but in s118 it requires "Full faith and credit shall be given, throughout the Commonwealth, to the laws, the public Acts and records, and the judicial proceedings of any State."

That means what is says, as States have health powers within their individual jurisdictions, they have the right to impose internal quarantine measures in relation to the territory they control and/or have jurisdiction over, not national quarantine as that is a Commonwealth responsibility and only relates to entry into the Commonwealth from external territories and/or sovereign States and not internal carriage.

I don't think we want to interfere with that provision in the interests of what is really a once in a hundred year pandemic. If we do, then you might find yourself needing to get a Drivers' License in every State and Territory if you want to drive across the country, because it's that sort of thing that allows freedom of movement.

I think everyone just needs to calm down a bit as this is not going to last forever. However, there is a perfectly sound constitutional basis for what is being done, the States have the power. The Commonwealth constitution ONLY applies where it relates to a Commonwealth head of power enumerated in s51.

And s109 won't help either (inconsistency of laws) because it does not apply unless the Commonwealth has jurisdiction, because State Constitutions are preserved upon establishment of the Commonwealth, except in areas ceded to the Commonwealth.

It's not as simple as reading one section of the constitution.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 11:28
  #8724 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
I was pointing at the two opposite ends of the spectrum. Modern democracies sit in the middle somewhere but lean to the left, so you get a mix of everything. It's quite obvious that there will be things that have to be forced on people, ie don't kill your neighbour, otherwise you are forced into jail. Something like medicare is a simple argument that the whole population must be in it or the system doesn't work. Should it have been farmed out as a separate 'tax', well that's political, as making you see how much it costs makes you feel like you don't need it and encourage moves towards privatisation and user pays systems. If the tax system also gave you a bill for our defense budget you would feel the same so they don't play with that so they can adjust it at will.

The other option to medicare is insurance based user pays, which in the US is pretty much un-affordable by the lower socioeconomic populations. So they just take their chances uninsured and usually with no way to afford the medical bills.
It also creates a free-for-all where the medical system is designed to benefit ONLY the profit motive of the insurance companies.

I often equate Medicare with the TAC in Victoria, having lived in other States, such as NSW, the cost of TAC 3rd party coverage in Victoria is chicken feed compared with the obscene 'green slip' system in NSW which is at least 3-4 times as much and only covers the basics, whereas in Victoria, if you are incapacitated, TAC as it's non-profit, has the capability to supply, for example, a person to mow your lawns (pay for it that is) until you are recovered. Why?? because the GREED element is removed as TAC is non-profit with any excess being piped into items such as the above or into road safety initiatives.

In large populations, single payer is ALWAYS going to be the better option - imagine if, like in the past, you had to pay a private police force to protect you or the fire brigade and they just drove past if your premium was late or unpaid. That's a crap system. The problem is that most Americans call that 'socialism' yet they have more publicly funded policing than just about any other country and their military is largely a smorgasbord of unnecessary expenditure - i.e. 'socialism' to get the vote of a Senator or a Representative in a certain district. The US DoD is the very essence of socialism by the US definition.

Truth is, they, and most people who throw the term around wouldn't actually know socialism if it stood up in their morning corn flakes. If they knew anything about it they would recognise it because, as in the Soviet days, their 'corn-flakes' would be a box containing hundreds of little plastic cosmonauts with a single plastic bag contain a single cornflake (crop failures).

That's because 'socialism' is actually ownership of ALL the means of production by the State/people via the State - what we have is a mixed system, where some things that are more logically done by the government because of economies of scale are done for the common good - just look at the cost of our system in Australia, something like 9% of GDP and in the US it used to be 17%, probably more now, and nearly 50m are not covered.

I'm happy to live in such a society where a child who has a rare disease gets to live a near normal life because all of us effectively throw in fractions of a cent each to get him/her the million dollar drug - whereas the US attitude is "sucks to be you, sell your house for 12 months worth of medicine".

Still, for a corrupt government that throws up 'voter ID' as a thought bubble when there are so many other REAL problems to be solved, such as election funding corruption, who knows what we'll end up with if this mob stays in - it's clear at this point they have no shame regarding doing anything to get their miserable a-ses re-elected.

Have no doubt if the AEC didn't exist they'd be gerrymandering to hell.
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 03:29
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Socialism is where the state owns and controls the means of production. Communism is when the people own and control the means of production, Similar to your example of little plastic Cosmonauts, a friend who lived in the USSR said there were shops full of identical ugly shoes, but no bread.
We have a mixture of socialism and capitalism in Australia and although far from perfect it works a lot better than many other places. Being a monarchy seems to be enough of a safety valve to protect us from lunatics becoming presidents...
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 04:18
  #8726 (permalink)  
 
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Socialism is not really a form of goverment, its an ideology, marxism and onto communism are governmental forms. The construct of capitalism being the enemy of the proletariat was brought in by Marx as part of Marxism. Capitalism was portrayed as being the same system evolved from feudalism, with the same protagonists at the top oppressing the masses. Hence where the socialist vs capitalist dogma that has abound since.

PS many in the field do not regard the USSR as ever having practiced communism, rather more a direct form of dictatorship.
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 04:22
  #8727 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
Socialism is not really a form of goverment, its an ideology, marxism and onto communism are governmental forms. The construct of capitalism being the enemy of the proletariat was brought in by Marx as part of Marxism. Capitalism was portrayed as being the same system evolved from feudalism, with the same protagonists at the top oppressing the masses. Hence where the socialist vs capitalist dogma that has abound since.
Whereas communism is different protagonists oppressing the masses!
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 05:51
  #8728 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop
protect us from lunatics becoming presidents...
But it would seem there are lunatics at State Premier level
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 05:55
  #8729 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
But it would seem there are lunatics at State Premier level
Well, at least one has gone.
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 07:06
  #8730 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WingNut60 View Post
Well, at least one has gone.
Could very well be two by mid next yr.
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 13:50
  #8731 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
Socialism is where the state owns and controls the means of production. Communism is when the people own and control the means of production, Similar to your example of little plastic Cosmonauts, a friend who lived in the USSR said there were shops full of identical ugly shoes, but no bread.
We have a mixture of socialism and capitalism in Australia and although far from perfect it works a lot better than many other places. Being a monarchy seems to be enough of a safety valve to protect us from lunatics becoming presidents...
The monarchy has zero to do with it. It is an enduring commitment by Australian's generally and even our leaders to date, that respect the law and quietly go when the people speak. The United States shows that when people decided to push the guide-rails at the edges, any system will potentially fracture. What we have in Canberra now is a government that has shown no shame when it comes to virtually ignoring the High Court (a la Dutton getting a visa cancellation overturned, then going back to his office and cancelling the visa again for a different reason, tantamount to contempt of the HC), raiding journalists for reporting the truth about government corruption and even the alleged murder of innocent civilians by our military and orchestrating to spy on a friendly and very poor country to fraudulently do them out of their oil and gas revenue, then the sorry sack of crap that orchestrated it left politics and along with his department head, took a job with the private company that stood to benefit. He's not in jail, neither of them are, but this corrupt successor government is currently persecuting the whistleblower and his lawyer under the guise of a secret trial - if there was ANY justice or descent laws against corruption, the former Minister and the Dept. Head would be in jail or being tried now.

People tend to point to Trump who is only ONE of 44 Presidents to be an imbecile and a crook, yes, what Nixon did was bad but he wasn't as bad as Trump and Buchanan was useless but that's three out of 231 years so one can hardly say we are 'safer' just because we have an imaginary figurehead who seems to be a person but lives in another country, that is skipping over all the facts.

This country is worse than the US when it comes to a rampant executive with virtually zero checks and balances which can basically do whatever it wants - with no restraint in terms of a bill of rights or any constitutional guarantees of process. Trump tried, but he was incompetent and the US Constitution is in many ways a very well structured document that effectively saw just about every attempt he made be resisted by the system. There is at least a chance Trump will go to jail for election interference if not for out and out fraud from the many State cases against him. He is desperately trying to hide documents and information from prosecutors and investigators. However, Congress is really the problem, it is a body that has basically, in many ways, ceased to function, being dominated to a large extent by morons who think wildfires are caused by Jewish 'space [email protected]' and who think nothing matters because Jesus is coming to rapture them.

Nothing at all to do with the fact they are a republic. Just look at some of the things Trump tried, banning certain religions from the country, overturned by the courts because it violated the First Amendment, attempting to illegally steal an election by 'finding votes' but was thwarted by the separation of powers and the independence of the State apparatus. He tried extortion of a foreign leader and was impeached by the House of Representatives, twice, he wasn't convicted in the Senate but the impeachment stands and at least a couple of Republicans voted for removal from office.

None of those protections exist in Australia and as I said, the Queen has nothing whatsoever to do with it, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting....... that there's some magical stabilising influence, if so, how did it go with the Coup in Fiji - QEII must have been so busy keeping Australia stable that Fiji overthrew their government and declared themselves a republic (not a republic actually in the correct sense of the word, just as China can call themselves a republic all they like, but they never will be a 'republic' in the correct sense while they are a one-party state). QEII's influence also didn't stop the US invading Grenada. The United States, a constitutional republic, overthrowing a Commonwealth realm when the Queen presumably ran out of stabilising 'puff'.

The notion that the Queen saves us is fantasy, just as the notion that this is a purely representative democracy. The current government in Canberra rules virtually by feat, they know they're on the nose so what do we get, with the myriad problems that need solving such as poverty, indigenous disadvantage, rebuilding the economy after the pandemic?? Voter ID, FFS, it's a solution searching for a problem. The number of irregularities in our elections which are HEAVILY scrutinised by party representatives and independent scrutineers is almost non-existent and invariably the result of confused people voting, then forgetting they voted and voting again - even that will be eradicated when the electoral rolls used at polling booths go to networked PCs that instantly update records so if you go to another booth, you'll be shown as already being marked off - the only difference to now is that it's picked up a little later after polls close by the machine reading of electoral rolls at each booth.

But of course, Voter 'ID' isn't a solution to any electoral process problem, real or imagined, it's a solution for a different problem, that being that this government has p-ssed so many people off, most of them poor (robodebt), has gone against its promises to retirees and has done nothing for the indigenous, ALL of whom are likely to vote against them so we'll pass this hasty and ill-thought out piece of legislation to make sure the sort of people who hate them, who also don't have the social mobility or wealth to own cars or a passport will be turned away at the ballot box and queues will be 10 times as long, effectively disenfranchising those they stand to lose through their votes. It is cynically and likely the most disgusting and shameful move by any government since federation. From a PM who can't lie straight in bed. I'm no fan of the French but think back and ask which other PM any of us can remember being called a 'liar' in public by an ally.

All of this happens, whistleblowers facing life in jail, laws that can put you in prison for satirical parody of a government institution - just ask Juice Media how they were brow-beaten by the 'Feds' and warned to stop using their clearly parodied coat of arms. The performance of the then AG was almost laughable.

And guess what, all this happens and QEII just sits in her castle, sipping tea and eating scones and doing what she's bloody well told when an Australian PM asks her to appoint a GG (or remove one) and a constitution that removes ANY power other than that from her and bestows it upon a GG who is not elected and MUST do precisely what the Cabinet tell him/her to do without question or face removal.

Sorry, but being a monarchy makes no difference. Thailand is a monarchy and their previous Monarch was considered a 'god' but the country can't go a week without a coup or shooting of people by the Army - and their current King is a buffoon.

Constitutional guide-rails, respect for the people's judgement and a general respect for the rule of law is what has kept us stable, not the Queen (for goodness sake, before he abdicated, Edward considered Hitler a great friend and he was an admirer.
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 14:00
  #8732 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
Whereas communism is different protagonists oppressing the masses!
Reminds me of an old Soviet joke - "Dimitry, do you think our grandchildren will see full communism achieved??" "Yes Vladimir, the poor bastards."
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 04:36
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While I’ll hold judgment until we see details, McGowan has said he will announce a roadmap for living with COVID on Friday. That’s a heck of a movement forward from next year.
Also, after making up a ridiculous excuse (something about border hopping, but actually couldn’t be done) to keep NSW “extreme risk” 2 days ago, he’s now received “updated health advise” that says he can reduce it to high risk. Looks like he had no choice after he let the bloke from the US in to see his dying mother, he now has to give everyone with a compassionate reason to return a G2G.
Somebody must be applying some pressure. He looks quite uncomfortable these days when being asked about the borders.

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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 05:23
  #8734 (permalink)  
 
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I didn’t even know the border was still shut with WA. Covid is non existent over here over the last two or so weeks I’ve read or heard barely nothing.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 05:28
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That’s great (I’m assuming you’re over east?). We in the west though are still very much effected by it. Not all of us are happy clappers like SOPS and the 3 blokes he knows who keep telling him at BBQ’s how much they love all this

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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 10:03
  #8736 (permalink)  
 
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I feel your pain, your lockdown has a few months to run yet. As MM fades away and no one cares he will open a little earlier… maybe.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 10:11
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Sometimes frankly, WA being so remote loses all grip on reality especially over vaccinations and COVID . You just need to watch the news programmes and they never real touch on international issues...and they are I am afraid inward looking full of own self importance (many), and don't know much about world reality (nor how to drive)!!

I've lived in Europe for many years and while I have been here for two years now (my wife wanted to come back and is from WA) I am astounded sometimes at the arrogant nature and self entitlement culture. I also want to fly again!!

Now I know many are likely to disagree and probably tell me to go back (I'm working on that) but it's my observations from over 50 years in Europe.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 10:49
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Originally Posted by nivsy View Post
Sometimes frankly, WA being so remote loses all grip on reality especially over vaccinations and COVID . You just need to watch the news programmes and they never real touch on international issues...and they are I am afraid inward looking full of own self importance (many), and don't know much about world reality (nor how to drive)!!.
Well Nivsy, being a man of the world you might also have noticed that, with the exception of Kerry Stokes' Channel 7, the news on WA TV is not only Australian-biased, it is also heavily NSW / VIC biased.
Great if your interested in the weather in Killara or crowd numbers at the rugby league games or why every state should erect giant statues of Beryl.
That is because the bl....dy lot comes out of the "eastern states".

Channel 7 is the only one giving substantial WA content and that is a deliberate counter to the drivel that we have to endure from the others.

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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 11:08
  #8739 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Chad Gates View Post
Thatís great (Iím assuming youíre over east?). We in the west though are still very much effected by it. Not all of us are happy clappers like SOPS and the 3 blokes he knows who keep telling him at BBQís how much they love all this
itís actually 8 guys. 😆
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 11:28
  #8740 (permalink)  
 
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Population of Perth can't be much more than a few hundred, so he has maybe 80 people that like him. Maybe when they get to 1000 they can have some local TV and stuff.
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