Air NZ pilot redundancies
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for clearing up the Seniority issue here_we_go_again, as always the gossip train can distort the truth. I was unaware anything was put in writing such as the email you mentioned. The few guys I've spoken to about it who were effected simply said they were told no Regional Pilots will be added ahead of them if they started before a certain date. But again, what was said vs what was heard I guess we can only speculate. Some new hires did have their Seniority numbers revoked and re-issued below T&R Pilots however.
Anyway, if the Regional ALPA reps aren't willing to make any changes that could save jobs then that's disgusting. But, to separate fact from fiction, the Jet Pilots are not saving Jobs directly due to the proposed 14% Paycut, there's more to it than that and a lot wont apply to the Regionals so cannot be copy pasted for the same effect.
Jet Pilots earn their base pay for 60 hrs flying per roster. Above 60 hours we get IP (incentive pay) per flying hour. Some view it as overtime, but really, it's productivity pay. Our schedules can be very seasonal so when we get flogged we get paid for it. 777 Pilots were flying 85-90+ hour rosters covering for the 787 in recent year.
Average IP across all Fleet/Ranks was calculated at 15%, Obviously, no one's doing 60+ hrs anytime soon, so 15% IP + 14% Paycut + delaying the annual pay increase (roughly 2%), the total reduction in Jet Salaries is ~31% (more for 777 Pilots less for Airbus Pilots, but that's the nature of IP).
This aligns with the Exec 15% Paycut, as they also wont be getting bonuses etc, so told us it works out to be a 30% cut for them also.
By agreeing to the Package (which includes the 14% Paycut among other things) the company have agreed to calculate Redundancies on 60 hr Rosters and not the "optimum" which is ~75 hrs. This is what will save Jobs.
Unfortunately, I don't believe the Regionals have IP? And, similar to the A320 fleet, it's incredibly difficult to fly massive hours on domestic where your turn-arounds can be longer then the actual flight. Most of the Jet IP comes from International Flying, especially Long Haul.
I do hope the Regionals can come up with solutions to keep their Junior Colleagues employed, but due to the contractual differences between Jet & Regional, they each demand a unique solution.
Anyway, if the Regional ALPA reps aren't willing to make any changes that could save jobs then that's disgusting. But, to separate fact from fiction, the Jet Pilots are not saving Jobs directly due to the proposed 14% Paycut, there's more to it than that and a lot wont apply to the Regionals so cannot be copy pasted for the same effect.
Jet Pilots earn their base pay for 60 hrs flying per roster. Above 60 hours we get IP (incentive pay) per flying hour. Some view it as overtime, but really, it's productivity pay. Our schedules can be very seasonal so when we get flogged we get paid for it. 777 Pilots were flying 85-90+ hour rosters covering for the 787 in recent year.
Average IP across all Fleet/Ranks was calculated at 15%, Obviously, no one's doing 60+ hrs anytime soon, so 15% IP + 14% Paycut + delaying the annual pay increase (roughly 2%), the total reduction in Jet Salaries is ~31% (more for 777 Pilots less for Airbus Pilots, but that's the nature of IP).
This aligns with the Exec 15% Paycut, as they also wont be getting bonuses etc, so told us it works out to be a 30% cut for them also.
By agreeing to the Package (which includes the 14% Paycut among other things) the company have agreed to calculate Redundancies on 60 hr Rosters and not the "optimum" which is ~75 hrs. This is what will save Jobs.
Unfortunately, I don't believe the Regionals have IP? And, similar to the A320 fleet, it's incredibly difficult to fly massive hours on domestic where your turn-arounds can be longer then the actual flight. Most of the Jet IP comes from International Flying, especially Long Haul.
I do hope the Regionals can come up with solutions to keep their Junior Colleagues employed, but due to the contractual differences between Jet & Regional, they each demand a unique solution.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why does it not makes sense? Those pilots are on LWOP and employed by Air New Zealand? Or so everyone says.
What difference does it make if they are on LWOP flying for Link or an airline in the US, or doing something outside aviation altogether. Why is NZALPA changing the CEA to exclude them from getting a payout that they deserve.
What difference does it make if they are on LWOP flying for Link or an airline in the US, or doing something outside aviation altogether. Why is NZALPA changing the CEA to exclude them from getting a payout that they deserve.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why does it not makes sense? Those pilots are on LWOP and employed by Air New Zealand? Or so everyone says.
What difference does it make if they are on LWOP flying for Link or an airline in the US, or doing something outside aviation altogether. Why is NZALPA changing the CEA to exclude them from getting a payout that they deserve.
What difference does it make if they are on LWOP flying for Link or an airline in the US, or doing something outside aviation altogether. Why is NZALPA changing the CEA to exclude them from getting a payout that they deserve.
Tag & Release is a mess, and unfortunately, I feel the ego's of some of the "masterminds" behind it are getting in the way of a resolution. Because to solve a problem, you're admitting the problem exists in the first place....
As dctPub has already said, if the Tag & Release Pilots are indeed the same as any other Jet Pilot on LWOP then they should be paid Redundancy. Any other Jet Pilot on LWOP would be paid it regardless of their employment status so why are T&R Pilots any different?
If however, they are not the same as a Jet Pilot on LWOP and thus not entitled to the Redundancy Payout, then they were not made redundant and should not have preferential right to re-employment over current Jet Pilots.
I'd say a certain Air NZ exec who was pushing for this is quietly crapping his pants at how much his wet dream might end up costing the company if they're forced to pay Redundancy to 108 Pilots they aren't actually making Redundant. Which is exactly what will happen (according to the CEA) if the Ratification Ballot fails. (The amendment to Redundancy pay for T&R Pilots is part of the package out for ratification. We cannot pick and choose which clauses we want and which we don't).
Yes and no. Lots of variables. ATR Command base I believe is higher than SO, lower then F20 (year 4) but I don't think they get IP.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: all over
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The feds. Didn’t they vote to give themselves a 25% pay cut about a week in to this and once they saw all the work ALPA did to save jobs, with the 14% reduction on a flexi scheme, thought that looks good we’ll take that.
The issue I see is these surplus numbers are for April next year. 100 pilot excess. Let’s say everyone does a flexi scheme and shaves 14% off for 9 months. We get to April and the model is bang on, still 40 pilots in excess (if that’s how many jobs are saved) then how long does the group sacrifice the conditions? Realistically there are going to multiple waves of job cuts here.
The issue I see is these surplus numbers are for April next year. 100 pilot excess. Let’s say everyone does a flexi scheme and shaves 14% off for 9 months. We get to April and the model is bang on, still 40 pilots in excess (if that’s how many jobs are saved) then how long does the group sacrifice the conditions? Realistically there are going to multiple waves of job cuts here.
The 25% vote by the Feds showed unity to want to save jobs and to start the momentum towards a pilot wide solution. The exec had not expected that and were not prepared for such a show of support. They were straight into thinking about following the CEA. Once this train started ALPA had to get on board. Imagine the backlash if your union leaders had the chance to try and save your job and said, sorry we will just to stick to the CEA and lose some pilots as our jobs are safe and we don’t need a pay cut thanks. A little simplistic I know but this move was not political, it was moralistic. It was to save jobs of colleagues, real people with families, mortgages etc, which is awesome. The days of us and them should be long gone. Maybe not yet but they will be. I’m certainly not trying to start any union debate here and the unions have worked together probably better than ever on this one it would seem. There are awesome younger guys in both camps that can lead the way forward and leave the past where it is. I do however feel the need to give credit where credit is due and don’t like to see the negative attitudes and misinformed throwaway comments that we see so often.
I've been with ALPA for over 15 years through various jobs and have no plans of changing that, however, someone made a comment in one of the Livestreams that I cannot fault:
"If this doesn't ratify the Feds might find themselves with another 400+ members once this is over" (Or words to that effect).
I'm expecting the agreement before us will ratify. Despite the protesting of a vocal minority I believe they are just that, a minority. However, if it doesn't ratify, it has the potential to tear ALPA apart.
Certain ALPA Pilots need to accept many of our Junior Colleagues were barely out of nappies in 1990 when the 747 dispute gave birth to the Federation... while some of the original signers are still with us, for the most part, it's ancient history. Focus on what ALPA stands for today instead of bitching about what the Feds did yesterday.
"If this doesn't ratify the Feds might find themselves with another 400+ members once this is over" (Or words to that effect).
I'm expecting the agreement before us will ratify. Despite the protesting of a vocal minority I believe they are just that, a minority. However, if it doesn't ratify, it has the potential to tear ALPA apart.
Certain ALPA Pilots need to accept many of our Junior Colleagues were barely out of nappies in 1990 when the 747 dispute gave birth to the Federation... while some of the original signers are still with us, for the most part, it's ancient history. Focus on what ALPA stands for today instead of bitching about what the Feds did yesterday.
Last edited by ElZilcho; 23rd Apr 2020 at 23:16.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Crew Bunk
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been with ALPA for over 15 years through various jobs and have no plans of changing that, however, someone made a comment in one of the Livestreams that I cannot fault:
"If this doesn't ratify the Feds might find themselves with another 400+ members once this is over" (Or words to that effect).
I'm expecting the agreement before us will ratify. Despite the protesting of a vocal minority I believe they are just that, a minority. However, if it doesn't ratify, it has the potential to tear ALPA apart.
Certain ALPA Pilots need to accept many of our Junior Colleagues were barely out of nappies in 1990 when the 747 dispute gave birth to the Federation... while some of the original signers are still with us, for the most part, it's ancient history. Focus on what ALPA stands for today instead of bitching about what the Feds did yesterday.
"If this doesn't ratify the Feds might find themselves with another 400+ members once this is over" (Or words to that effect).
I'm expecting the agreement before us will ratify. Despite the protesting of a vocal minority I believe they are just that, a minority. However, if it doesn't ratify, it has the potential to tear ALPA apart.
Certain ALPA Pilots need to accept many of our Junior Colleagues were barely out of nappies in 1990 when the 747 dispute gave birth to the Federation... while some of the original signers are still with us, for the most part, it's ancient history. Focus on what ALPA stands for today instead of bitching about what the Feds did yesterday.
In 1989 along with about 170 other pilots we formed the Air New Zealand Pilots Society. We felt alpa wasn't looking after the interests of ANZ pilots.
A few years later another bunch of pilots were disenchanted with alpa and decided to leave but couldn't bring themselves to join ANZPS because of the stigma attached so were going to form their own group. Discussions took place and FANZP was formed and both groups united.
If there is a possibility of another 400 pilots joining it is inevitable a name change will occur so as to avoid any sigma from the past.
Right from inception this group have been proactive at it is pleasing to see in this thread that they still are.
Good luck and hope the Feds are able to save some of their members livelihoods as they have shown they can conduct constructive meaningful negotiations.
I have been a NZALPA member since I joined the airline industry. But the way that the union and CM has dealt with this has been terrible. FANZP have stood out to not just myself, but all of my colleagues I have spoken with, due to their continued communications and openness to doing a deal for the WHOLE pilot group. Redundancy packages for the most senior pilots would have been a bloody great start, and has worked well in the USA saving junior pilots jobs.
I hear that there was a large email chain going around with around 150 ALPA pilots on it last week, and I heard that the Regional pilots have a similar thread. There is a LARGE number (hundreds) of pilots that are not happy with the way that ALPA have handled this. And an even larger number of people that don't like the leadership of CM.
I will be a Fed this time next week if the NZALPA Ballot gets voted down. But even then, I might be a Fed by then anyway. Save my money on fees and belong to a union that seems to actually care about their members. The days of the Feds being called Scabs are long gone (30 years ago)!
I hear that there was a large email chain going around with around 150 ALPA pilots on it last week, and I heard that the Regional pilots have a similar thread. There is a LARGE number (hundreds) of pilots that are not happy with the way that ALPA have handled this. And an even larger number of people that don't like the leadership of CM.
I will be a Fed this time next week if the NZALPA Ballot gets voted down. But even then, I might be a Fed by then anyway. Save my money on fees and belong to a union that seems to actually care about their members. The days of the Feds being called Scabs are long gone (30 years ago)!
CM appears too proud to admit how much of a **** up T&R has become... he was very quick to shut it down on the Livestreams.
If the Federation did indeed warn ALPA & the Company about T&R in a Redundancy situation then that will be even harder for him and JW to admit their failures. I have heard there is work going on in that area at the moment however. I'm not planning to leave ALPA for the same reason I didn't leave NZ when we let Winnie elect the Coalition of losers. I don't expect CM to to retain his position at the next election simply due to his attitude towards members.
As it stands today, we have 108 T&R Pilots voting on the agreement.
Furlough allows you to retain your years of service - not applicable for T&R as they still have a Regional Job and will retain Service that way.
Furlough allows you to retain your employment contract - not applicable for T&R as they still have a Regional Job.
Furlough freezes your pay steps for you return - T&R Pilots mostly joined the Jet list from late 2018 so would gain very little here.
Redundancy is based on your "Group Service" - Most T&R Pilots have 8+ years service, some 10-15+ so would be entitled to a healthy redundancy payment.
Redundancy still preserves your Seniority number for 10 years - So a T&R Pilot loses nothing, they effectively remain T&R while retaining their Regional Commands
Redundancy in the proposed CEA Varion will exclude T&R Pilots from a payment - Suggesting they're currently entitled to one under the existing CEA.
So, remind me why any of those 108 Pilots will vote Yes to this agreement? Furlough and Redundancy are effectively no different for a T&R Pilot under the proposed agreement, yet the existing CEA entitles them to a Redundancy Payment for a Job they never started. Anecdotally I've heard many T&R Pilots are not planning on taking a Jet Position anyway, so why on earth would they vote themselves out of a Redundancy Payment?
Again, this is a mess. I hope Forans paying attention and looking at the Muppets who didn't filter this through the Lawyers before actioning it. The Company could be facing Millions in Redundancy Payments to Pilots who aren't actually Redundant - according to CM they're all the same as Jet Pilots on LWOP and have the exact same entitlements...
If the Federation did indeed warn ALPA & the Company about T&R in a Redundancy situation then that will be even harder for him and JW to admit their failures. I have heard there is work going on in that area at the moment however. I'm not planning to leave ALPA for the same reason I didn't leave NZ when we let Winnie elect the Coalition of losers. I don't expect CM to to retain his position at the next election simply due to his attitude towards members.
As it stands today, we have 108 T&R Pilots voting on the agreement.
Furlough allows you to retain your years of service - not applicable for T&R as they still have a Regional Job and will retain Service that way.
Furlough allows you to retain your employment contract - not applicable for T&R as they still have a Regional Job.
Furlough freezes your pay steps for you return - T&R Pilots mostly joined the Jet list from late 2018 so would gain very little here.
Redundancy is based on your "Group Service" - Most T&R Pilots have 8+ years service, some 10-15+ so would be entitled to a healthy redundancy payment.
Redundancy still preserves your Seniority number for 10 years - So a T&R Pilot loses nothing, they effectively remain T&R while retaining their Regional Commands
Redundancy in the proposed CEA Varion will exclude T&R Pilots from a payment - Suggesting they're currently entitled to one under the existing CEA.
So, remind me why any of those 108 Pilots will vote Yes to this agreement? Furlough and Redundancy are effectively no different for a T&R Pilot under the proposed agreement, yet the existing CEA entitles them to a Redundancy Payment for a Job they never started. Anecdotally I've heard many T&R Pilots are not planning on taking a Jet Position anyway, so why on earth would they vote themselves out of a Redundancy Payment?
Again, this is a mess. I hope Forans paying attention and looking at the Muppets who didn't filter this through the Lawyers before actioning it. The Company could be facing Millions in Redundancy Payments to Pilots who aren't actually Redundant - according to CM they're all the same as Jet Pilots on LWOP and have the exact same entitlements...
Post your email here and someone might send it to you.
Are you saying that the ongoing issues found within ALPA are solely due to CM? I have no issue with his minions on the council. It is not a good leader when EVERY SINGLE PILOT you speak to has at least one example of them being yelled at down the phone by him. He is a dicktator, and not a leader. And the fact that he will be getting a PAY RISE from his own down training (C7-14% vs. C8) is awfully convenient. All my group of friends are of the opinion that the Council, under the CM dicktatorship, has resulted in a situations not benefiting the general pilot group, but more protecting the top 10%.
The other **** up is with the pathways; all those prop pilots at the bottom of the jet list are staying on full pay on the left seat on a turboprop. And their new contract means that even if they are down trained into the right seat, they remain on full pay! And they are all looking at getting their jobs back ahead of some experienced jet pilots at the bottom of the list, with nothing else to fall back on.
Pathways is and always will be a complete failure. They need to get rid of it. Especially now: there is NO pilot shortage (so no need for pathways anymore), and there is HUNDREDS of redundant (experienced) jet pilots (check and training captains presumably too) from VA NZ sitting around. I am sure in a few years there will be a majority of them that won't find flying work, and will happily jump onto the bottom of the jet list! Better to hire them than some regional pilot that has failed jet interviews, failed jet type ratings and have no jet/international experience.
The other **** up is with the pathways; all those prop pilots at the bottom of the jet list are staying on full pay on the left seat on a turboprop. And their new contract means that even if they are down trained into the right seat, they remain on full pay! And they are all looking at getting their jobs back ahead of some experienced jet pilots at the bottom of the list, with nothing else to fall back on.
Pathways is and always will be a complete failure. They need to get rid of it. Especially now: there is NO pilot shortage (so no need for pathways anymore), and there is HUNDREDS of redundant (experienced) jet pilots (check and training captains presumably too) from VA NZ sitting around. I am sure in a few years there will be a majority of them that won't find flying work, and will happily jump onto the bottom of the jet list! Better to hire them than some regional pilot that has failed jet interviews, failed jet type ratings and have no jet/international experience.
Are you saying that the ongoing issues found within ALPA are solely due to CM? I have no issue with his minions on the council. It is not a good leader when EVERY SINGLE PILOT you speak to has at least one example of them being yelled at down the phone by him. He is a dicktator, and not a leader. And the fact that he will be getting a PAY RISE from his own down training (C7-14% vs. C8) is awfully convenient. All my group of friends are of the opinion that the Council, under the CM dicktatorship, has resulted in a situations not benefiting the general pilot group, but more protecting the top 10%.
The other **** up is with the pathways; all those prop pilots at the bottom of the jet list are staying on full pay on the left seat on a turboprop. And their new contract means that even if they are down trained into the right seat, they remain on full pay! And they are all looking at getting their jobs back ahead of some experienced jet pilots at the bottom of the list, with nothing else to fall back on.
Pathways is and always will be a complete failure. They need to get rid of it. Especially now: there is NO pilot shortage (so no need for pathways anymore), and there is HUNDREDS of redundant (experienced) jet pilots (check and training captains presumably too) from VA NZ sitting around. I am sure in a few years there will be a majority of them that won't find flying work, and will happily jump onto the bottom of the jet list! Better to hire them than some regional pilot that has failed jet interviews, failed jet type ratings and have no jet/international experience.
The other **** up is with the pathways; all those prop pilots at the bottom of the jet list are staying on full pay on the left seat on a turboprop. And their new contract means that even if they are down trained into the right seat, they remain on full pay! And they are all looking at getting their jobs back ahead of some experienced jet pilots at the bottom of the list, with nothing else to fall back on.
Pathways is and always will be a complete failure. They need to get rid of it. Especially now: there is NO pilot shortage (so no need for pathways anymore), and there is HUNDREDS of redundant (experienced) jet pilots (check and training captains presumably too) from VA NZ sitting around. I am sure in a few years there will be a majority of them that won't find flying work, and will happily jump onto the bottom of the jet list! Better to hire them than some regional pilot that has failed jet interviews, failed jet type ratings and have no jet/international experience.
Outside of a few mail runs and charters, the 777 is effectively grounded and, based a on a few leaked documents floating around, will only have ~20 Pilots in each seat post COVID. It's a safe bet to say the 772's will be getting an early exit. Doesn't matter if we ratify this agreement or not, downtraining is coming for the majority of 777 Pilots which will cascade all the way down the list.
I'd say the Council was well aware that we have a large number of Pilots, well protected by Seniority, who would of voted no to this agreement without blinking if they were faced with the 14% pay-cut along with down-training and no IP. By having that exemption, they're effectively asking those Pilots to take a 14% Cut while they sit at home waiting for their 787/A320 Course.
As AM (or maybe JH) said in the Zoom meeting, they could of presented a 50% AFFA document in an attempt to save everyone's job... but would it of ratified? Think we all know the answer to that one.
ALPA has always had a problem with certain Ego's getting their heads in the door, but they don't usually last. If the Federation grow larger to be comparable with ALPA, they'll eventually have the same problem. However, in terms of the actual agreement, I strongly suspect it is what is it because they had to present something they thought would ratify.
CM is just one person. If this fails, it's not a problem with the ALPA Council, it's a problem with the membership. Honestly, some of the questions the Council have had to answer make me question how some of our members can hold an ATPL when they clearly can't read...
Last edited by ElZilcho; 25th Apr 2020 at 08:22.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Depends
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So true
Honestly, some of the questions the Council have had to answer make me question how some of our members can hold an ATPL when they clearly can't read...[/QUOTE]
couldn’t agree more. Nearly spat my wine out laughing.
couldn’t agree more. Nearly spat my wine out laughing.
Whatever happened to to the big push towards Collaborative Decision Making that was was all the rage about 5 years ago. ALPA, Feds, and the company all around the table together sorting things out. Apparently it worked very well for another event that occurred in 2016, or so I was told.