Air NZ pilot redundancies
Those pilots subsequently joined Company and were given Seniority numbers.
Not long after, they had their numbers revoked and re-issued behind 40 or so Regionals on Tag & Release.
Apparently it was an administrative error made by the person who manages the list, but that still doesn't explain why those Pilots were told they would be ahead of the Regionals before starting. I have my suspicions it's because people were declining interviews and even starts due the effect it would have on Career Progressions but can't say for certain.
The Regional Pilots don't deserve the vitriol coming at them over this, it's not their fault. But I can also see it from the other perspective. 110 Pilots on the list ahead of you is 3-4 years retirements, so if you're a current Jet Pilot about to lose your job behind all the Regionals, your wait for re-employment will be significantly longer while they get to continue in their current job on the Q300/ATR as if nothing happened.
It's a mess.
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It’s easily fixed if the union are willing. No change needs to be made to the CEA..simply make a statement that if you get made redundant/furloughed as a current jet pilot you will be rehired at the appropriate time as a jet pilot, but if you were on LWOP when you were made redundant then you will be on LWOP when you are rehired in the same order.
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It’s easily fixed if the union are willing. No change needs to be made to the CEA..simply make a statement that if you get made redundant/furloughed as a current jet pilot you will be rehired at the appropriate time as a jet pilot, but if you were on LWOP when you were made redundant then you will be on LWOP when you are rehired in the same order.
What some if you seem to forget is that the regional pilots on tag and release are not there by choice. They are there because they wanted to go to jet but the company could not release them due to manpower issues.
If you held lwop pilots from starting their jet career at the appropriate time within seniority what then happens to the regional pilots made redundant at the bottom of the regional list? Is one group of pilots more important then the other?
The amount of hysteria over an issue that effects the bottom 50 on the jet list is laughable. What these guys fail to see is that in 10 years time (when the airline gets down to the lwop pilots) the majority of those pilots will not go to jet anyway. They will either be retired or not interested in the bottom of a seniority list.
There are far bigger things to worry about then the bottom of the jet seniority list at the moment.
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From both sides of the table it doesnt look like a great position to be in but if you then make the T/R guys stay put wont you be just be moving the unemployment from a jet pilot to a regional pilot? I dont think regional pilots have been made redundant but if they do then having the T/R guys stay put will just delay the regional re-hires. Somewhere someone looses.
From both sides of the table it doesnt look like a great position to be in but if you then make the T/R guys stay put wont you be just be moving the unemployment from a jet pilot to a regional pilot? I dont think regional pilots have been made redundant but if they do then having the T/R guys stay put will just delay the regional re-hires. Somewhere someone looses.
For the Jet Pilot, that means unemployment.
T&R Pilots however, are on both Seniority lists. While Junior on the Jet List they're all quite Senior on the Regional list. So Rendancy from Jet effectively means nothing changes for them. Their Jet Seniority number is still "reserved", same as any Redundant Pilot, but their Regional Seniority numbers are senior enough to eliminate any risk of actually being made Redundant. They'll all hold onto their Commands on the Q300 or ATR.
So when it comes to re-employment, the current Jet Pilot is stacking shelves at Pak'n'save waiting to be called back, while the T&R Pilot is still comfortable in the LHS of a T-Prop.
The argument being put forward is that those Regional Pilots should hold onto their Seniority numbers in Jet, but remain on "LWOP" to their T-Prop Command until all current Jet Pilots are re-hired.
Again, the whole things a mess.
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What about the lack of movement on the regional list which is the idea you are proposing by insisting regional pilots that are tagged stay on lwop.
That will have a direct effect on redundant turboprop pilots on the bottom of the regional list stacking shelves as you put it.
Or have I forgotten that a jet pilot is more important than a mere turboprop pilot?
That will have a direct effect on redundant turboprop pilots on the bottom of the regional list stacking shelves as you put it.
Or have I forgotten that a jet pilot is more important than a mere turboprop pilot?
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I totally get what you're saying. Regional guys havent been made redundant yet but it will likely happen. T/R guys get the best outcome of this. Yes, your T/R guy stays employed while the jet guys are made redundant. When they go down the list and either recall the jet guy packing the supermarket shelves or the move the T/R guy across to the jet someone looses out. Its just whether its John at the bottom of the jet list or Paul at the bottom of the regional list. Someone who was made redundant (noting this hasnt happened in the prop world YET) will lose a chair to sit on when the music stops. I'm not affected by either outcome but it seems like most people are more focused on John.
I totally get what you're saying. Regional guys havent been made redundant yet but it will likely happen. T/R guys get the best outcome of this. Yes, your T/R guy stays employed while the jet guys are made redundant. When they go down the list and either recall the jet guy packing the supermarket shelves or the move the T/R guy across to the jet someone looses out. Its just whether its John at the bottom of the jet list or Paul at the bottom of the regional list. Someone who was made redundant (noting this hasnt happened in the prop world YET) will lose a chair to sit on when the music stops. I'm not affected by either outcome but it seems like most people are more focused on John.
Admittedly, I never thought about it from that perspective and it does add yet another complication to the utter mess T&R has created.
On one hand, I want to say the young Regional Pilot probably doesn't have a wife, kids and mortgage budgeted on a 6 figure salary but that's not a fair approach. We can't assume anyones position based on their age/seniority.
Optimistically, I'd like to think the Regionals will be least affected by COVID once Domestic travel ramps up... then again, it's looking possible they might some routes entirely.
There's not going to be any winners here.
Sorry, seems I misunderstood your original post. In other words, a T&R guy not moving onto the Jet will prevent a Junior Link Pilot who was made redundant from getting re-hired. I thought your reference to redundant Regional Pilots was the T&R guys, who will retain their jobs.
Admittedly, I never thought about it from that perspective and it does add yet another complication to the utter mess T&R has created.
On one hand, I want to say the young Regional Pilot probably doesn't have a wife, kids and mortgage budgeted on a 6 figure salary but that's not a fair approach. We can't assume anyones position based on their age/seniority.
Optimistically, I'd like to think the Regionals will be least affected by COVID once Domestic travel ramps up... then again, it's looking possible they might some routes entirely.
There's not going to be any winners here.
Admittedly, I never thought about it from that perspective and it does add yet another complication to the utter mess T&R has created.
On one hand, I want to say the young Regional Pilot probably doesn't have a wife, kids and mortgage budgeted on a 6 figure salary but that's not a fair approach. We can't assume anyones position based on their age/seniority.
Optimistically, I'd like to think the Regionals will be least affected by COVID once Domestic travel ramps up... then again, it's looking possible they might some routes entirely.
There's not going to be any winners here.
Any of us in the middle of the seniority lists and above are likely to be less harmed and have been fortunate to enjoy what has been possibly the greatest aviation boom period outside of post-WW2. The effect on those at the bottom of the regional seniority list could well be quite harsh given until fairly recently a command could be happily expected within 2 years of joining. Many have partners, children, mortgages and have large student loans. We all have our biases but I really hope they don't lose too much out of this.
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Sorry, seems I misunderstood your original post. In other words, a T&R guy not moving onto the Jet will prevent a Junior Link Pilot who was made redundant from getting re-hired. I thought your reference to redundant Regional Pilots was the T&R guys, who will retain their jobs.
Admittedly, I never thought about it from that perspective and it does add yet another complication to the utter mess T&R has created.
On one hand, I want to say the young Regional Pilot probably doesn't have a wife, kids and mortgage budgeted on a 6 figure salary but that's not a fair approach. We can't assume anyones position based on their age/seniority.
Optimistically, I'd like to think the Regionals will be least affected by COVID once Domestic travel ramps up... then again, it's looking possible they might some routes entirely.
There's not going to be any winners here.
Admittedly, I never thought about it from that perspective and it does add yet another complication to the utter mess T&R has created.
On one hand, I want to say the young Regional Pilot probably doesn't have a wife, kids and mortgage budgeted on a 6 figure salary but that's not a fair approach. We can't assume anyones position based on their age/seniority.
Optimistically, I'd like to think the Regionals will be least affected by COVID once Domestic travel ramps up... then again, it's looking possible they might some routes entirely.
There's not going to be any winners here.
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Do the 777 drivers become 787 drivers who become airbus drivers? Seems like a heck of a lot of training and sim time.
maybe you’ll see a prop doing the Auckland Christchurch run?
maybe you’ll see a prop doing the Auckland Christchurch run?
In other words, 2/3 of Jet Operations revenue comes from International which will be the slowest to recover. While this will feed into the Regionals due to less tourism, their operation is 100% internal so not quite as hamstrung by international border closures.
If we assume the Regionals retain all routes, they might lose some frequency and pax numbers will be down, but the A320 will still have many destinations closed due to international restrictions.
If Redundancies are 387, the Airbus fleet will lose a lot of FO's but should still be able to operate until Capacity ramps us. At that point, if they deem there's a surplus in the A320 Command ranks, a group of Junior Captains could lose their extra stripe to more balance the numbers and leave everyone else where they are. Seat changes are far easier to facilitate than fleet changes.
Air NZ runs the risk, that if they down-train too many from the top, they might have to re-train them back up again when things start to rebound.
I'd say the conservative approach, for now anyway, is to keep the Airbus flying with minimal seat changes and not rush into any long term changes.
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Interesting. So even though the lads at the top aren’t flying they potentially sit on pay? Do the regionals have the same downgrade facility to even the ranks? Are they essentially grounding the 777?
So what's the alternative?
Obviously redundancies based on today's flying (Domestic is running at 1% capacity I believe) is simply out of question.
If they decided to make half of us redundant, that would cost a fortune in redundancy payouts, ground the A320 fleet, and it takes around 3 months to transition from the Widebody to line check on the A320 under normal circumstances.
So really, they have no choice but accept a cash burn in wages. Make Pilots Redundant based on predicted future numbers without grounding the only fleet doing any work and then down-train ahead of the rebound as required.
777 Pilots are slowly going uncurrent. They've got a few freight charters to LAX at the moment (3 a week I believe) and are on call for any rescue charters that come up. Most of the flying is going to the Standards Pilots to keep the current.
Once we come out of level 4 lockdown, potentially the SIMs will open up again and we'll rotate through to keep current and then go on call. But hard to say.
Not sure what the Regionals contracts say, but I believe a lot of clauses around redundancy and down-training are similar to ours.
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Interesting, thanks for answering all that. What a crazy economy. Shows how no one can afford to feel invincible. I would assume regional pilots will be in less of a rush to change seniority lists in the future.
With the redundancy clauses in place, where all redundant must be re-hired first, I doubt anyone not currently on the list will need to make that decision for several years. But it does call into the question the risks associated with changing Airlines and going to the bottom of the list. Ironically, a lot of external hires left their previous Airlines for better job security. Only time will tell how that plays out.
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That said, no one is safe really. I'm sure the industry will return to normal in a few years and as often happens in these situations not all the pilots return - many opting to change to more stable and secure career paths
Oh the irony screams there ! Certainly plenty who went off to get trained up on the bus at JQ and snaked em to ANZ might be regretting their morals right about now.
That said, no one is safe really. I'm sure the industry will return to normal in a few years and as often happens in these situations not all the pilots return - many opting to change to more stable and secure career paths
That said, no one is safe really. I'm sure the industry will return to normal in a few years and as often happens in these situations not all the pilots return - many opting to change to more stable and secure career paths
And for what it's worth, the majority of externals looking at losing their jobs are not necessarily former regional pilots who "jumped the queue".
I've heard that attitude floating around, seems some regional Pilots are getting their jollies on the knowledge their former colleagues might be losing their jobs with no where to go. Pretty disgusting if you ask me and I'd suggest those particular individuals are the ones who should be questioning their own morals.
Given I've not heard that sentiment I'd say "some regional pilots" is a microscopic number in the same way I'd hope some other relayed attitudes are.
It is yet to be seen if the ex JQ people would have been any more secure still in JQ. The only advantage that JQ possible has is that Qantas is saving a lot of money at the moment due to their ability to stand down 2/3 of staff on LWOP meaning cashflow is severely helped as opposed to Air NZ who is still paying full wages and facing millions in redundancy payments and restructuring. Having said that though Qantas may just shut the whole JQ operation or they may try and be nimble an Knick some market share in the aftermath, no one knows. I was chatting to a mate at Air NZ last week and she said the company had asked her to move her leave forward and she had refused as she thought that with the risk of redundancy she was going to get as much pay out of the company as possible, this is fair enough on an individual basis but if the majority of staff are doing that then the outgoings at Air NZ must be eye watering.