Project Sunrise
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One can only guess as to the size of the bonus and staff travel category upgrade the Company’s lead negotiator is going to get if they manage to FUD this over the line !
I bet the Company think they’re in Safe hands !
I bet the Company think they’re in Safe hands !
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You bet it is.
This secure the flying then work on improving the conditions line of thinking is quite astounding.
We (as a group) did that to secure the 787 flying...... how has improving the conditions subsequent to that worked out? By the company's approach to the current set of negotiations... not so well it would appear
This secure the flying then work on improving the conditions line of thinking is quite astounding.
We (as a group) did that to secure the 787 flying...... how has improving the conditions subsequent to that worked out? By the company's approach to the current set of negotiations... not so well it would appear
The 787 deal is actually quite popular amongst the current crew. The general consensus is that it’s a good deal.
I will not be fooled or bullied into avoiding a NO vote because a few clowns threaten to throw their toys out of the cot
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Explain why QF are saying publicly that Coronavirus will be managed with leave and no new hires? But operations continue with courses for new hires and training up new Captains and F/O’s.
Explain why in the second webinar management let it slip that the 350 will replace the 380?
Explain the pilot management running around spreading rumors of 787-10 for the past 6 months, but we haven’t ordered one?
Explain why you would wish to be paid less than a 330 pilot if you were to fly SYD/AKL/LAX/JFK/LAX/AKL/SYD?
Explain why they used a China Southern Captain who has previously failed entry into QF?
You are of course right that management will do what they want to do. We have 3 years to get it sorted. I personally don’t see a reason to capitulate on the first vote.
Explain why in the second webinar management let it slip that the 350 will replace the 380?
Explain the pilot management running around spreading rumors of 787-10 for the past 6 months, but we haven’t ordered one?
Explain why you would wish to be paid less than a 330 pilot if you were to fly SYD/AKL/LAX/JFK/LAX/AKL/SYD?
Explain why they used a China Southern Captain who has previously failed entry into QF?
You are of course right that management will do what they want to do. We have 3 years to get it sorted. I personally don’t see a reason to capitulate on the first vote.
2) He clearly slipped up. I agree the 350 will replace the 380. The 787 replaced the 747 you cannot except to be paid the same as on the 380 to fly the 350.
3) Ask your management mate.
4) Lets wait and see the final package offered. You are jumping the gun here.
5) Send Allan an email and let us know what he says.
6) The question has been asked multiple times. Tino has put his foot down and the deadline is end of March. While I agree with what your saying, it’s his train set.
As far as the 787 deal, you are quite right. It was approved by the majority (strange how I never seem to fly with people that voted yes to it.....) It did however dilute the current contract and set a new bench mark to which all future negotiations would be compared to.
This would be the second successive deal that would see less money for more work.
And let's not get too carried away with crediting recent recruitment to the 787 deal getting done. Given the number of aircraft gained versus aircraft retired, I'm not sure there has been a net increase. That hiring boom took place because of poor HR practices, not an abundance of opportunity created by a couple of 787's.
How far/low are you prepared to go just to secure flying? Surely there is a point where even yourself would be reticent to accept a substandard deal in return for a shiny new jet?
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Sorry I misread.
In a perfect world, none. But you can’t ignore the elephant in the room. How low do you think future negotiations will go when there is a new entity, a much cheaper entity willing to do OUR flying for much much less?
This is the BIG question at play here, and so far no one in the ‘VOTE NO’ corner has addressed it.
After doing 8 years at Qlink, and seeing the Eastern vs. Sunstate battle appear EVERY EBA renewal, it is not a good thing. And the unfortunate thing, is a lot of the more senior flight crew at mainline, seem completely unaware of just how potentially devastating this vote could be to mainlines future.
How far/low are you prepared to go just to secure flying? Surely there is a point where even yourself would be reticent to accept a substandard deal in return for a shiny new jet?
In a perfect world, none. But you can’t ignore the elephant in the room. How low do you think future negotiations will go when there is a new entity, a much cheaper entity willing to do OUR flying for much much less?
This is the BIG question at play here, and so far no one in the ‘VOTE NO’ corner has addressed it.
After doing 8 years at Qlink, and seeing the Eastern vs. Sunstate battle appear EVERY EBA renewal, it is not a good thing. And the unfortunate thing, is a lot of the more senior flight crew at mainline, seem completely unaware of just how potentially devastating this vote could be to mainlines future.
You can have a fight now or never, the 787 was 30% the 350 is about another 30% , will you roll for another 30% in 4 years? Don’t say it won’t happen because it will and I would suggest it will be as flight deck duty time is to become 10 hours a SO will be removed from all SFO,LAX, JOBURG, SANTIAGO etc and no SO on all Asian flying.
You can have a fight now or never, the 787 was 30% the 350 is about another 30% , will you roll for another 30% in 4 years? Don’t say it won’t happen because it will and I would suggest it will be as flight deck duty time is to become 10 hours a SO will be removed from all SFO,LAX, JOBURG, SANTIAGO etc and no SO on all Asian flying.
They did that in the 90’s. Remember 3 pilot BKK-LHR on the 744. It’s not new. Stop the fear crap. What do you care anyway. You’ll be gone in a few years anyway. The World financial system is in deep doo doo and you’re still beating anyone over the head that doesn’t agree with your archaic views. Seriously had enough of the broken records on this topic. GO GET A LIFE.
For the senior folk here (and on qrewroom 
) who have no intention of ever flying the 350, and for those who can avoid flying it, for gods sake just leave the 350 terms out of your thoughts. All you do by voting No on principle, or voting no because you ‘want to look after new joiners’ (yeah right) is potentially cost any mainline pilot under 45 their career. look at the package as a whole, if you don’t want to fly the 350 you don’t have to. Just get it on the EA. if QF can’t staff it that’s their problem. at least give your junior colleagues a choice!
if you won’t fly it, and the EA gives you your pay rise plus a few other things, why should it bother you. Look around, the world is falling apart. We are getting a pay increase on current fleets, and the potential for a new fleet. (Yes it may end up as replacement, but look at how many promotions came about from the 744 replacement) think this virus stuff will be over in a month? You are kidding yourselves. Once again we have been f”$ed by timing. A YES gets the 350 in mainline and keeps the people like old mate away. A NO.....who knows. Am I willing to risk it with the crazy fools who will spend whatever it takes to pump up their ego running this joint...no
) who have no intention of ever flying the 350, and for those who can avoid flying it, for gods sake just leave the 350 terms out of your thoughts. All you do by voting No on principle, or voting no because you ‘want to look after new joiners’ (yeah right) is potentially cost any mainline pilot under 45 their career. look at the package as a whole, if you don’t want to fly the 350 you don’t have to. Just get it on the EA. if QF can’t staff it that’s their problem. at least give your junior colleagues a choice!if you won’t fly it, and the EA gives you your pay rise plus a few other things, why should it bother you. Look around, the world is falling apart. We are getting a pay increase on current fleets, and the potential for a new fleet. (Yes it may end up as replacement, but look at how many promotions came about from the 744 replacement) think this virus stuff will be over in a month? You are kidding yourselves. Once again we have been f”$ed by timing. A YES gets the 350 in mainline and keeps the people like old mate away. A NO.....who knows. Am I willing to risk it with the crazy fools who will spend whatever it takes to pump up their ego running this joint...no
For the senior folk here (and on qrewroom ) who have no intention of ever flying the 350, and for those who can avoid flying it, for gods sake just leave the 350 terms out of your thoughts. All you do by voting No on principle, or voting no because you ‘want to look after new joiners’ (yeah right) is potentially cost any mainline pilot under 45 their career. look at the package as a whole, if you don’t want to fly the 350 you don’t have to. Just get it on the EA. if QF can’t staff it that’s their problem. at least give your junior colleagues a choice!
) who have no intention of ever flying the 350, and for those who can avoid flying it, for gods sake just leave the 350 terms out of your thoughts. All you do by voting No on principle, or voting no because you ‘want to look after new joiners’ (yeah right) is potentially cost any mainline pilot under 45 their career. look at the package as a whole, if you don’t want to fly the 350 you don’t have to. Just get it on the EA. if QF can’t staff it that’s their problem. at least give your junior colleagues a choice!
Despite the voices to the contrary I’ve not yet come across a 787 pilot who claims they’re under paid for what they do.
Unless you are Qf management, that's just about as an insulting piece as I've read on these pages. The pilot body at Qantas is as caring for it's future as it is possible to be. If you don't see that, YOU are in the wrong career for it will hurt you badly.
And when a NO vote ends up costing us the 350, and promotions dry up, and we watch yet another entity flying red tailed aircraft....then what do you say? “ well I cared for the future pilots and lost”. How does that help anyone. I don’t like the situation any more than any other mainline pilot, but are you willing to risk it? Look at the narcissistic management. Look at the current pro business government. Look at how the labour government screwed us all in 2011. Look at the pro business FWA. it’s wrong, completely wrong the position we are in, and should never be allowed to happen in Australia. But the law is leaning very heavily away from employees now.
im assuming you read qrewroom, and if so you will know who I’m talking about. Maybe they are well intentioned, but my reading of it is their position is based on anger rather than facts. Im as pissed off as you are. But we have to leave emotion aside now. They have unlimited spending potential on courts etc. If we lose this aircraft, we are all f#$ed. You may find it insulting, I don’t really care. It is fact. There are people pushing a NO, who, if it does go down and we lose the aircraft, will never be affected by it. They will finish their careers on 380’s and sail off into the sunset with their defined benefit super. The rest of us aren’t so lucky.
And when a NO vote ends up costing us the 350, and promotions dry up, and we watch yet another entity flying red tailed aircraft....then what do you say? “ well I cared for the future pilots and lost”. How does that help anyone. I don’t like the situation any more than any other mainline pilot, but are you willing to risk it? Look at the narcissistic management. Look at the current pro business government. Look at how the labour government screwed us all in 2011. Look at the pro business FWA. it’s wrong, completely wrong the position we are in, and should never be allowed to happen in Australia. But the law is leaning very heavily away from employees now.
im assuming you read qrewroom, and if so you will know who I’m talking about. Maybe they are well intentioned, but my reading of it is their position is based on anger rather than facts. Im as pissed off as you are. But we have to leave emotion aside now. They have unlimited spending potential on courts etc. If we lose this aircraft, we are all f#$ed. You may find it insulting, I don’t really care. It is fact. There are people pushing a NO, who, if it does go down and we lose the aircraft, will never be affected by it. They will finish their careers on 380’s and sail off into the sunset with their defined benefit super. The rest of us aren’t so lucky.
The company has done nothing but threaten you from the very start of this whole sunrise palaver.
If you don’t sign up before the end of 2019, we won’t do Sunrise.
If you don’t sign up before the end of March 2020, we won’t do Sunrise.
And now
If you don’t sign up before the end of March 2020, we will start a greenfields.
The problem is, the first two threats didn’t work, so Allan had to up the ante. Time to really ramp up the fear.
If you’re not seeing them ALL as threats, then you’re not engaging your brain.
So that’s it, the company has the upper hand? Capitulation it is then?
I am frequently astounded at the naïveté of pilots who fail to see their own strength. The company has made a threat that will take 3 years to implement. Meanwhile, the remaining pilots – YOU -have 3 years to flex your own industrial muscle. 3 years to mount an industrial campaign of the like that Allan has never seen. You think the company has the upper hand here? Allan has very few friends left in government. As a result of the surprise grounding during the Commonwealth Heads of Government, and some of the more recent progressive campaigns, he has damaged his standing in Canberra.
The only reason the grounding worked, was because the government of the day was taken by surprise and wet their pants. Allan is not going to get his way a second time. Search for the Paul Keating interview on how the Fair Work should have handled the confected grounding.
The company will only have the upper hand if the majority of pilots believe they have the upper hand! Since the beginning of time, the masses have always had the upper hand. The only reason corporate bullies get away with bullying, is because people fail to stand up to it.
If you don’t know your own strength, you’re never going to prevail. What is you union leadership doing? Or is it another tragic case of lions lead by donkeys?
If you don’t sign up before the end of 2019, we won’t do Sunrise.
If you don’t sign up before the end of March 2020, we won’t do Sunrise.
And now
If you don’t sign up before the end of March 2020, we will start a greenfields.
The problem is, the first two threats didn’t work, so Allan had to up the ante. Time to really ramp up the fear.
If you’re not seeing them ALL as threats, then you’re not engaging your brain.
So that’s it, the company has the upper hand? Capitulation it is then?
I am frequently astounded at the naïveté of pilots who fail to see their own strength. The company has made a threat that will take 3 years to implement. Meanwhile, the remaining pilots – YOU -have 3 years to flex your own industrial muscle. 3 years to mount an industrial campaign of the like that Allan has never seen. You think the company has the upper hand here? Allan has very few friends left in government. As a result of the surprise grounding during the Commonwealth Heads of Government, and some of the more recent progressive campaigns, he has damaged his standing in Canberra.
The only reason the grounding worked, was because the government of the day was taken by surprise and wet their pants. Allan is not going to get his way a second time. Search for the Paul Keating interview on how the Fair Work should have handled the confected grounding.
The company will only have the upper hand if the majority of pilots believe they have the upper hand! Since the beginning of time, the masses have always had the upper hand. The only reason corporate bullies get away with bullying, is because people fail to stand up to it.
If you don’t know your own strength, you’re never going to prevail. What is you union leadership doing? Or is it another tragic case of lions lead by donkeys?
Tony, seeing as you are from Hong Kong , are you talking about the strength of the Cathay pilots or are you talking about how that strength has produced results or are you a 1989 Oz domestic pilot who is still wearing the rose coloured glasses?
Im as pissed off as you are. But we have to leave emotion aside now. They have unlimited spending potential on courts etc. If we lose this aircraft, we are all f#$ed. You may find it insulting, I don’t really care. It is fact. There are people pushing a NO, who, if it does go down and we lose the aircraft, will never be affected by it. They will finish their careers on 380’s and sail off into the sunset with their defined benefit super. The rest of us aren’t so lucky.
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I wouldn't get to worried about it. They are entitled to their opinion. Fortunately the people who constantly whine on qrewroom are the select minority. Theres probably about 20 out of 1600 LH pilots. And as you said, people primarily in the LHS who wont be affected by the vote.
wonderful. Now if you could please provide the information you have about what happens after a NO, and how you can ensure we lock away the flying etc, we’d all be appreciative. Because so far the NO advocates haven’t given anything. If you can convince me with fact, you’ll have another NO. Go for it.
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1) Wait for the 2nd and 3rd offers.
2) The company won’t make a seperate entity, they are bluffing.
3) The 350s won’t come even with a YES vote.
4) Stick it to the company.
5) Anything not endorsed by AIPA is a NO vote.
It's what I have been after for a while. Not one person is yet to provide a valid argument thats not one of the following:
1) Wait for the 2nd and 3rd offers.
2) The company won’t make a seperate entity, they are bluffing.
3) The 350s won’t come even with a YES vote.
4) Stick it to the company.
5) Anything not endorsed by AIPA is a NO vote.
1) Wait for the 2nd and 3rd offers.
2) The company won’t make a seperate entity, they are bluffing.
3) The 350s won’t come even with a YES vote.
4) Stick it to the company.
5) Anything not endorsed by AIPA is a NO vote.
As far as some have stated that this deal is a disgrace, can anyone provide some tangible numbers or points why?
From what I understand Airbus pilots would be asked to do a bit more work for a bit more pay?
And new hire SO’s would be on 787 style conditions for the entirety of their time as an SO, even if they go to the A380 (which won’t be around much longer anyway).
Is that it? Because if it is and there are some who are advocating that a No vote occurs out of anger or calling their bluff or waiting for round 2 then it’s going to look really silly to have rejected it with the current market the way it is.
With Australian VA 330 pilots who aren’t flying, CZ Captains laid off, expats in all four corners of the globe desperate to come home and plenty of others in regionals, GA and the Academy that can be easily trained up to fly the thing there’ll be no problem crewing the operation, and even for T&C’s that are lower than what’s being proposed. And now we know there’s no guarantees that LWOP would be approved for mainline pilots to join the new operation.
I know everyone’s angry over what’s happened in the last 10 years but think rationally, it’s pretty clear what is going to happen with the Yes vote or a No vote to this EBA. There won’t be a “round 2”....
I think it’s time to discuss the specific changes that are being proposed than having discussions off in every tangent about what seniority could get you an FO slot in 2005 or how much you hate the company. Eastern Airlines pilots and staff hated their boss in the 80’s too. Look where they ended up.
Last edited by dr dre; 28th Feb 2020 at 11:06.