Project Sunrise
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So it appears since the company’s initial offer, they have:
a) Dropped the proposed changes in duty travel
b) Added a long haul credit (which is effectively just night credits over 18 hours)
c) Rejected AIPAs proposed pay freeze. Which I 100% agree with. Why should I take a pay freeze to prop up another fleet?
d) Did I hear they have now proposed a 6 year pay scale for new SO’s? Wasn’t the initial offer only 18 months? Did I hear this right?
Well I actually haven’t.
But so far the reasons I have heard for a NO vote are:
1) Wait for the 2nd and 3rd offers.
2) The company won’t make a seperate entity, they are bluffing.
3) The 350s won’t come even with a YES vote.
4) Stick it to the company.
5) Anything not endorsed by AIPA is a NO vote.
Pretty appalling reasons really. Especially considering our profession successfully resolves around solid decision making skills. GRADE anyone?
But so far the reasons I have heard for a NO vote are:
1) Wait for the 2nd and 3rd offers.
2) The company won’t make a seperate entity, they are bluffing.
3) The 350s won’t come even with a YES vote.
4) Stick it to the company.
5) Anything not endorsed by AIPA is a NO vote.
Pretty appalling reasons really. Especially considering our profession successfully resolves around solid decision making skills. GRADE anyone?
Are they serious??
I know what everything thinks about management and the history and yes there’s lots of reasons for anger, but don’t forget:
It’s that same company that you want to “stick” it to that puts a whole lot of money in your bank account every fortnight.
There’s a lot of pilots out there who would sing the praises of management to high heaven in order to have a steady pay check coming in or be able to be based back in Australia.
That’s ridiculous.
As for the other reasons there’s no guarantee of a 2nd or 3rd offer, given the current worldwide conditions I don’t think anyone is bluffing, the A350 is almost certainly coming (why bother drafting conditions for it if it isn’t??) and it looks as if the Union isn’t too far away from the company with their prospective positions anyway.
This doesn’t mean you should automatically vote yes but make your decision after good judgement and a fair comparison of this deal to current global market pilot conditions, not legacy A380 conditions which won’t exist in the medium future.
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The harsh reality is the COVID19 drama has provided management with an opportunity they will not waste. Suddenly the world has gone from a shortage of sorts to a gross over supply of unemployed and experienced long haul international pilots. And much more than a few Aussies among them to boot.
Chinese airlines are at best a gulag, albeit ones that pay well. Every expat is gagging to escape that hell. If you think QF management is blind to that, think again. This is their negotiating trump card and all that remains is to see how short sighted they are with its use.
Chinese airlines are at best a gulag, albeit ones that pay well. Every expat is gagging to escape that hell. If you think QF management is blind to that, think again. This is their negotiating trump card and all that remains is to see how short sighted they are with its use.
Beer Baron you said this "But I suffered through those bad years"
How is employment as a SO on the QF LH agreement award "suffering" weren't you getting an incremental salary rise for each year of service ?
Something like 12 steps - who has these days , year 12 SO earns 50% more than year 1
With regard promotion you could have upgraded to FO on NB fleet likely a few years after joining , gone to JQ Aust and got some Airbus time
Even gone to a QF entity on LWOP and got LHS
I am certain if so chose you would have been 737 FO in your home town donkeys years ago
Oh didums didums , boo hoo hoo , the poor 12 year QF SO stuck earning north of $180K if on 330 $250K on 747/380
you really suffered oh poor Beer Baron
How is employment as a SO on the QF LH agreement award "suffering" weren't you getting an incremental salary rise for each year of service ?
Something like 12 steps - who has these days , year 12 SO earns 50% more than year 1
With regard promotion you could have upgraded to FO on NB fleet likely a few years after joining , gone to JQ Aust and got some Airbus time
Even gone to a QF entity on LWOP and got LHS
I am certain if so chose you would have been 737 FO in your home town donkeys years ago
Oh didums didums , boo hoo hoo , the poor 12 year QF SO stuck earning north of $180K if on 330 $250K on 747/380
you really suffered oh poor Beer Baron
My response was regarding normanton’s reference to the “lost decade”. If you think people refer to it as such because it was such a wonderful time to be at Qantas then you are a fool. If it was such a great period why do you offer numerous avenues that people took to leave?
Earning north of $250K???? Hahaha
I was an S/O on the 767, paid closer to $70K.
“Could have upgraded to SH in a few years”, Wrong again mate. You weren’t there, you don’t know what you are talking about.
I did go to the 737, flew it for years. Took a long time to get that slot and then lose it when there was a training freeze.
I joined Qantas before JQ even started flying yet anyone who joined JQ in those early years (our “lost decade”) could have become a captain twice over while we waited for a narrow body right seat.
I don’t begrudge those pilots, I don’t regret my decision to join Qantas but if you can’t see that watching ones career grind to a halt for nearly a decade would be unpleasant then you are wilfully ignorant.
Telfer86, I’m not sure who you fly for but the S/O gig is pretty soul destroying after about 18 months. Those who come into the airline after a solid G/A career hope to get a window seat, then during the lost years, to sit for 10 plus in the back seat is mind numbing. Add to that the horseS**t of not being allowed in the front below 20,000’ (what genius dreamed that one up?).
I did 5 years on the 744 As an S/O after a long G/A stint and wanted to strangle someone (preferably me) after about year 3. Add to that a 21 year wait for an East coast 737 command, while listening to the village idiot crow about the amaaaaaazing performance of J* and it was another case of wanting to punch someone (preferably the SLIC). I kept reminding myself that I had the cash to pay the bills and I could always be in the sand/honkers/G/A etc. Yes, it’s a pretty good place to be “stuck” but the psychology isn’t just about the cash, it’s the frustration of watching a multi millionaire ****** preen himself while running the national carrier into the ground, all the while telling the crew that they’re a bunch of c***s.
As for the new entity threat, it isn’t a threat. Management don’t need to ask, they just do. Think of all the other entities QF has started or bought, it will happen if the SLIC thinks it will hold the share price up long enough for him to retire richer than Gina Rhinehart.
I did 5 years on the 744 As an S/O after a long G/A stint and wanted to strangle someone (preferably me) after about year 3. Add to that a 21 year wait for an East coast 737 command, while listening to the village idiot crow about the amaaaaaazing performance of J* and it was another case of wanting to punch someone (preferably the SLIC). I kept reminding myself that I had the cash to pay the bills and I could always be in the sand/honkers/G/A etc. Yes, it’s a pretty good place to be “stuck” but the psychology isn’t just about the cash, it’s the frustration of watching a multi millionaire ****** preen himself while running the national carrier into the ground, all the while telling the crew that they’re a bunch of c***s.
As for the new entity threat, it isn’t a threat. Management don’t need to ask, they just do. Think of all the other entities QF has started or bought, it will happen if the SLIC thinks it will hold the share price up long enough for him to retire richer than Gina Rhinehart.
No mate, having been a long term S/O I want to ensure that anyone who has to endure that after me is on a decent contract while stuck in the rank. In early Feb you agreed with that very position. Now after a clever threat from Tino you have totally capitulated, I have not.
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Telfer86, I’m not sure who you fly for but the S/O gig is pretty soul destroying after about 18 months. Those who come into the airline after a solid G/A career hope to get a window seat, then during the lost years, to sit for 10 plus in the back seat is mind numbing. Add to that the horseS**t of not being allowed in the front below 20,000’ (what genius dreamed that one up?).
I did 5 years on the 744 As an S/O after a long G/A stint and wanted to strangle someone (preferably me) after about year 3. Add to that a 21 year wait for an East coast 737 command, while listening to the village idiot crow about the amaaaaaazing performance of J* and it was another case of wanting to punch someone (preferably the SLIC). I kept reminding myself that I had the cash to pay the bills and I could always be in the sand/honkers/G/A etc. Yes, it’s a pretty good place to be “stuck” but the psychology isn’t just about the cash, it’s the frustration of watching a multi millionaire ****** preen himself while running the national carrier into the ground, all the while telling the crew that they’re a bunch of c***s.
As for the new entity threat, it isn’t a threat. Management don’t need to ask, they just do. Think of all the other entities QF has started or bought, it will happen if the SLIC thinks it will hold the share price up long enough for him to retire richer than Gina Rhinehart.
I did 5 years on the 744 As an S/O after a long G/A stint and wanted to strangle someone (preferably me) after about year 3. Add to that a 21 year wait for an East coast 737 command, while listening to the village idiot crow about the amaaaaaazing performance of J* and it was another case of wanting to punch someone (preferably the SLIC). I kept reminding myself that I had the cash to pay the bills and I could always be in the sand/honkers/G/A etc. Yes, it’s a pretty good place to be “stuck” but the psychology isn’t just about the cash, it’s the frustration of watching a multi millionaire ****** preen himself while running the national carrier into the ground, all the while telling the crew that they’re a bunch of c***s.
As for the new entity threat, it isn’t a threat. Management don’t need to ask, they just do. Think of all the other entities QF has started or bought, it will happen if the SLIC thinks it will hold the share price up long enough for him to retire richer than Gina Rhinehart.
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No mate, having been a long term S/O I want to ensure that anyone who has to endure that after me is on a decent contract while stuck in the rank. In early Feb you agreed with that very position. Now after a clever threat from Tino you have totally capitulated, I have not.
The 2nd and 3rd choice will still be EBA10 - there will just be no Project Sunrise in the picture. That's because its gone to a new entity. That new entity is now employing Cap/FO/SO on less money and worse conditions that is proposed in the current negotiations. Don't kid yourself if you don't think they will be able to find pilots for it, even if it is 3 years away.
What sort of picture do you see for the current mainline pilots when the company works out how much $$$ they are saving with the new entity? You can wave goodbye to a 737 / 330 / 380 replacement aircraft at mainline. You can also wave goodbye to your future command at Qantas. Let that one sink in. But it's ok - because after all you did slug it out for 16 years as an S/O during the lost decade.
Who would miss out on command? You? That makes more sense now. Don’t let written diarrhoea pollute some of your fair points
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The guy saying hes slogged it out for 16 years as an S/O, and would most likely be very close to a command with the introduction of 350 flying. But deciding to throw it away on a gamble of a potential 2nd and 3rd vote.
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This is a commercial negotiation. QF are looking to save money on future A350 flying through this negotiation. They have multiple options about how they can do so. One option is reaching an agreement on the EA. The other is setting up a new entity.
To my mind, the relevant questions are still:
1. Do I think QF is bluffing about setting up a new crewing entity?
2. If not, do I think that we could jack up the costs for QF either through PIA or a public relations campaign, to such an extent that they would back down on setting up a new entity and continue to negotiate after a no vote?
I don't think they're bluffing, and I don't think we have much leverage to force them back to the table. If they pull the A350 terms out of the EA following a no vote, my understanding is we'd have no basis for PIA in relation to that (happy to be corrected). And, at the moment, I can't see us getting much sympathy for a public relations campaign. QF will point to the fact that the industry is in a meltdown with Corona, bang on that Sunrise will be like unicorns and rainbows and the best thing ever, and argue that pilots are paid multiple times the average full time wage but are putting Sunrise and QF itself at risk.
That might be mean and nasty of them, but this isn't a schoolyard. They hold the cards, and clearly intend to play them. My take, is that we need to play the best possible hand in the circumstances - which is keeping the flying mainline.
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If you don’t sign up before the end of 2019, we won’t do Sunrise.
If you don’t sign up before the end of March 2020, we won’t do Sunrise.
And now
If you don’t sign up before the end of March 2020, we will start a greenfields.
The problem is, the first two threats didn’t work, so Allan had to up the ante. Time to really ramp up the fear.
If you’re not seeing them ALL as threats, then you’re not engaging your brain.
So that’s it, the company has the upper hand? Capitulation it is then?
I am frequently astounded at the naïveté of pilots who fail to see their own strength. The company has made a threat that will take 3 years to implement. Meanwhile, the remaining pilots – YOU -have 3 years to flex your own industrial muscle. 3 years to mount an industrial campaign of the like that Allan has never seen. You think the company has the upper hand here? Allan has very few friends left in government. As a result of the surprise grounding during the Commonwealth Heads of Government, and some of the more recent progressive campaigns, he has damaged his standing in Canberra.
The only reason the grounding worked, was because the government of the day was taken by surprise and wet their pants. Allan is not going to get his way a second time. Search for the Paul Keating interview on how the Fair Work should have handled the confected grounding.
The company will only have the upper hand if the majority of pilots believe they have the upper hand! Since the beginning of time, the masses have always had the upper hand. The only reason corporate bullies get away with bullying, is because people fail to stand up to it.
If you don’t know your own strength, you’re never going to prevail. What is you union leadership doing? Or is it another tragic case of lions lead by donkeys?
Yep, fear, uncertainty and doubt - FUD. Perfected as a marketing tool by IBM in the 1960's. An absolutely perfect industrial relations tool against a workforce that is narrowly focussed on its metier, there is effectively one employer in Australia. The career structure is highly linear and seniority based. You are perfect candidates for a good Fudding. AJ is a master of it.
Great post Tony, something the new hires should read before saying yes to something they are going to regret for the rest of their careers.
Don’t think of this as losing some flying that still may not even happen, think of it as signing into working conditions that you will have to deal with for the rest of your lives. Don’t just disregard what the guys and girls sitting in front of you are saying to you, they’ve most likely been through a lot worse career situations that you are facing now. This will be just a one or two year hiccup, then the shortage will begin again.
Don’t think of this as losing some flying that still may not even happen, think of it as signing into working conditions that you will have to deal with for the rest of your lives. Don’t just disregard what the guys and girls sitting in front of you are saying to you, they’ve most likely been through a lot worse career situations that you are facing now. This will be just a one or two year hiccup, then the shortage will begin again.
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This secure the flying then work on improving the conditions line of thinking is quite astounding.
We (as a group) did that to secure the 787 flying...... how has improving the conditions subsequent to that worked out? By the company's approach to the current set of negotiations... not so well it would appear.
If and when the document is presented, I'll consider it on its merits and vote accordingly.
I will not be fooled or bullied into avoiding a NO vote because a few clowns threaten to throw their toys out of the cot.
And if the company bypass our negotiators and come straight for me to vote, as I said before it will be a NO on principle.
Whats the problem with the 787 deal?
I thought they were happy
I thought they were happy