Project Sunrise
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed.
The only thing the pilots have up their sleeves is to say to the company 'It looks like you're going to do this flying anyway and so the only question is who flies it. In that respect what does it hurt to talk to us for the next few months before you go down the road of an external crewing company. It if doesn't work discussing things with us at least you can still set up your company in the next 2 1/2 years instead of 3 years".
The only thing the pilots have up their sleeves is to say to the company 'It looks like you're going to do this flying anyway and so the only question is who flies it. In that respect what does it hurt to talk to us for the next few months before you go down the road of an external crewing company. It if doesn't work discussing things with us at least you can still set up your company in the next 2 1/2 years instead of 3 years".
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Pacific Rim
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A no vote is very far from the end of it. How long have we been listening to the rhetoric that the board will only authorise the purchase of the Sunrise aircraft if the numbers stack up? Has the board factored in another $200 million dollar pilot lock out? Every factor that led to the last one, is being repeated. I wager that that won't even be discussed until it rears it's ugly head, after March. When this is voted down, Long Haul pilots have three years until the planes arrive, to negotiate EBA10 in good faith, with a lot more LEGAL protected industrial action then red ties, PA’s stating Qantas flight, Qantas pilot, and Secure our flying ID lanyards. A lot can happen in three years. Qantas pilot’s might even have the legal and moral high ground this time. The outsourcing is completely unnecessary. The money involved here is less then a few upper management bonuses. But these few individuals and their lap dogs are determined to get them. The general public might just be getting tired of greedy CEO types, and Alan is a 24 million dollar tall poppy. I doubt the new entity will be formed until EBA10 is signed. Too many financial headaches from legal protected industrial action. Stand fast.
Anything over 15 hours flight is a health hazard. Ask the ex AN pilots who flew the SQ A340-500 SIN-EWR-SIN. In fact one of them is being buried in MEL on Tuesday 18 Feb.
It is generally accepted that a single cigarette reduces ones life between 7 and 11 minutes. I would like to know the reduction in life for one ULH flight. We know the radiation dose at FL350 is 0.003 millisievirts per hour. There are other health hazards in addition to radiation for long duty periods.
It is generally accepted that a single cigarette reduces ones life between 7 and 11 minutes. I would like to know the reduction in life for one ULH flight. We know the radiation dose at FL350 is 0.003 millisievirts per hour. There are other health hazards in addition to radiation for long duty periods.
Could someone please explain how future new hire SOs will be disadvantaged by what they’re proposing?
From my understanding it basically freezes any future SO on current 787 conditions even if they move to the 380. If that’s the case I don’t have a problem with it.
From my understanding it basically freezes any future SO on current 787 conditions even if they move to the 380. If that’s the case I don’t have a problem with it.
Yes. Quite the headline it was too.
For those that aren't in offices and unable to grab a copy:
Rebel Qantas pilots stymie New York, London long-haul plan
Australian Financial Review
Lucas Baird
Feb 17, 2020 — 12.01am
Furious Qantas Airways pilots are side-stepping their union in a secret bid to torpedo 'Project Sunrise' – the flag carrier's plan for ultra-long-haul flights from Australia's east coast to London and New York.
Rebel pilots made the move shortly before management delivered them an ultimatum last week that the project would happen with or without them.
The airline plans to introduce the North Atlantic flights from 2023, but is in negotiation over pay and conditions.
Such material also raises questions over which way pilots will vote now Qantas has also elected to bypass AIPA and put the Project Sunrise employment terms in front of workers if negotiations stall again next month. Mark Metcalfe
Lacking confidence in the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) as bargaining agreement negotiations dragged on, some pilots began circulating self-made material telling others to reject the offer Qantas had put on the table.
"You will be working harder than ever before. You will be away from home more than ever before. And, you will be doing it for less money than ever before," one presentation, obtained by The Australian Financial Review, said.
The presentation – dated January 22 – is understood to be one of several negative inter-worker communiques AIPA has not sanctioned. Other employee streams are also aware of the presentation, after an engineer got a copy when a pilot left theirs in the cockpit of an aircraft undergoing maintenance.
Such material raises questions over which way pilots will vote now Qantas has also elected to bypass AIPA and put the Project Sunrise employment terms in front of workers if negotiations stall again next month.
In an email to staff last week, Qantas International boss Tino La Spina told pilots of the decision and threatened to bring in an outside workforce for the Project Sunrise routes if the industrial agreement was not approved.
"It's become clear that Sunrise is something that our international business needs to maximise its long-term success and defend its competitive position," he said. "It is time to make decisions."
But the author of the negative presentation – who wished to remain anonymous for fears of retaliation from management – remained steadfast in their position.
"We work over Christmas, weekends, all through the night, and now they're asking us to do a flight that is currently illegal, with serious safety questions, and instead they just want to nickel and dime the pilots," the person said.
"Qantas pilots in cockpits all over the world will be distracted today and over the coming weeks by Tino's email and the threat to their jobs."
The airline has said captains flying the route would be paid a base salary of $395,000 a year, with first officers receiving $261,000 and second officers $129,000.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce chose the Airbus A350 ahead of the Boeing 777X for non-stop flights to NYC and London.
Still, internal Qantas documents sighted by the Financial Review show yearly pay on the minimum guaranteed hours under the industrial agreement for captains will be $342,000.
Qantas said the first set of figures was what it anticipated it would be paying pilots based on the frequency of Project Sunrise flights, with the second number providing a floor for what pilots would be paid.
Mr La Spina said it was the airline's strong preference to reach an agreement with the pilots. He has also been hosting regular webinars about the terms in the industrial agreement with pilots.
"We have a good deal on the table for our long-haul pilots, with pay increases and promotional opportunities and we've structured it, so their take-home pay is not negatively impacted," he said.
"The reality is we are running out of time to keep our aircraft delivery slots with Airbus."
Under regulations set by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, the current maximum flight duty limitations of 18-and-a-half hours are also under the time likely required to complete the Project Sunrise services.
However, CASA has advised Qantas no regulatory obstacles are blocking an extension.
For those that aren't in offices and unable to grab a copy:
Rebel Qantas pilots stymie New York, London long-haul plan
Australian Financial Review
Lucas Baird
Feb 17, 2020 — 12.01am
Furious Qantas Airways pilots are side-stepping their union in a secret bid to torpedo 'Project Sunrise' – the flag carrier's plan for ultra-long-haul flights from Australia's east coast to London and New York.
Rebel pilots made the move shortly before management delivered them an ultimatum last week that the project would happen with or without them.
The airline plans to introduce the North Atlantic flights from 2023, but is in negotiation over pay and conditions.
Such material also raises questions over which way pilots will vote now Qantas has also elected to bypass AIPA and put the Project Sunrise employment terms in front of workers if negotiations stall again next month. Mark Metcalfe
Lacking confidence in the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) as bargaining agreement negotiations dragged on, some pilots began circulating self-made material telling others to reject the offer Qantas had put on the table.
"You will be working harder than ever before. You will be away from home more than ever before. And, you will be doing it for less money than ever before," one presentation, obtained by The Australian Financial Review, said.
The presentation – dated January 22 – is understood to be one of several negative inter-worker communiques AIPA has not sanctioned. Other employee streams are also aware of the presentation, after an engineer got a copy when a pilot left theirs in the cockpit of an aircraft undergoing maintenance.
Such material raises questions over which way pilots will vote now Qantas has also elected to bypass AIPA and put the Project Sunrise employment terms in front of workers if negotiations stall again next month.
In an email to staff last week, Qantas International boss Tino La Spina told pilots of the decision and threatened to bring in an outside workforce for the Project Sunrise routes if the industrial agreement was not approved.
"It's become clear that Sunrise is something that our international business needs to maximise its long-term success and defend its competitive position," he said. "It is time to make decisions."
But the author of the negative presentation – who wished to remain anonymous for fears of retaliation from management – remained steadfast in their position.
"We work over Christmas, weekends, all through the night, and now they're asking us to do a flight that is currently illegal, with serious safety questions, and instead they just want to nickel and dime the pilots," the person said.
"Qantas pilots in cockpits all over the world will be distracted today and over the coming weeks by Tino's email and the threat to their jobs."
The airline has said captains flying the route would be paid a base salary of $395,000 a year, with first officers receiving $261,000 and second officers $129,000.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce chose the Airbus A350 ahead of the Boeing 777X for non-stop flights to NYC and London.
Still, internal Qantas documents sighted by the Financial Review show yearly pay on the minimum guaranteed hours under the industrial agreement for captains will be $342,000.
Qantas said the first set of figures was what it anticipated it would be paying pilots based on the frequency of Project Sunrise flights, with the second number providing a floor for what pilots would be paid.
Mr La Spina said it was the airline's strong preference to reach an agreement with the pilots. He has also been hosting regular webinars about the terms in the industrial agreement with pilots.
"We have a good deal on the table for our long-haul pilots, with pay increases and promotional opportunities and we've structured it, so their take-home pay is not negatively impacted," he said.
"The reality is we are running out of time to keep our aircraft delivery slots with Airbus."
Under regulations set by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, the current maximum flight duty limitations of 18-and-a-half hours are also under the time likely required to complete the Project Sunrise services.
However, CASA has advised Qantas no regulatory obstacles are blocking an extension.
Under regulations set by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, the current maximum flight duty limitations of 18-and-a-half hours are also under the time likely required to complete the Project Sunrise services.
However, CASA has advised Qantas no regulatory obstacles are blocking an extension.
However, CASA has advised Qantas no regulatory obstacles are blocking an extension.
Why have a limit if you just push it out when the money is right?
This is one of CASA's big weaknesses, in reality there are not any 'rules' as such. If you have enough cash to spend the 'rules' are whatever you want them to be.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 17th Feb 2020 at 01:34.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Hyperspace
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas would like nothing more than to break the Long Haul EBA. A NO vote here would give them a significant opportunity to do just that.
Looks to me like AIPA have been outmanoeuvred.
Don’t cut off your nose to spite your face. $395k plus allowances etc is good coin.
If $129k is not enough for a 21 year old looking at a Cadetship, then let market forces sort it out.
Looks to me like AIPA have been outmanoeuvred.
Don’t cut off your nose to spite your face. $395k plus allowances etc is good coin.
If $129k is not enough for a 21 year old looking at a Cadetship, then let market forces sort it out.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree angryrat - this is all about workload and no one seems to be talking about it.
EBA9, love it or hate it, binned 4 crew night credits but 145hr to make up for it. This 160hr(++) divisors with no 4 crew night credits is madness; and I say that without even referencing the nature of the flying you need to do for LHR/JFK direct.
Madness.
EBA9, love it or hate it, binned 4 crew night credits but 145hr to make up for it. This 160hr(++) divisors with no 4 crew night credits is madness; and I say that without even referencing the nature of the flying you need to do for LHR/JFK direct.
Madness.
That’s probably the point that gets me.
The divisor stays the same and you lose half a dozen hours night credits.
Makes any three day Asian trip more valuable than a LHR/JFK.
The divisor stays the same and you lose half a dozen hours night credits.
Makes any three day Asian trip more valuable than a LHR/JFK.
Definitely, voting yes sets a very precarious precedent not just for QF but for all Australian aviators - if this EBA gets up every airline will be threatening their pilots with a quasi B scale in order to water down their current agreements!
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True, but only until the A350 replaces the A380 and A330. It’s just a matter of time before this happens and then you can kiss goodbye a great award. Plenty of Asian carriers using the A350 on 10 hour routes. If there was ever a kind of flying that deserves proper overtime credits, it has to be 20.6 hour stick sectors! And we don’t even know the health side affects of these long sectors yet. They have also conceded that the project data so far is not mature and more studies are required on the fatigue side so why are we even talking about pilot pay rates yet!!?? Just walk away from the deal and let them keep negotiating by themselves as they have already conceded is the case. Vote NO, otherwise go and buy heaps of rectinol.
A yes vote will DEFINITELY reduce our conditions across the board. A no vote MAY reduce our conditions..let’s see what transpires. Don’t just give it away at the first threat!
Their track record of being honest about these things is as bad as can be.
Definitely, voting yes sets a very precarious precedent not just for QF but for all Australian aviators