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Jetstar EBA 2019

Old 12th Dec 2019, 01:18
  #241 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
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I don’t share the belief that AIPA and AFAP are best of friends and just looking out for each other. I am not a member of either but was flying with an AIPA member recently who spent most of the flight telling me how he hoped that AFAP would get taken to the cleaners for their ‘rediculous’ demands. He is shortly to join Qantas mainline and said that his mates in Qantas were openly seeing this as an opportunity to get some 787 flying back to Mainline and AIPA was keen on offering to pick up the Jetstar 787 flying when they priced themselves out of the low cost market. Now I am not saying this kind of attitude is prevelent in the majority but the whole ‘we are all friends and supportive’ is a bit of a stretch. I pointed out to this young guy that this sort of attitude is exactly the kind of bullshit the managers want to cultivate and the fractured pilot group is detrimental to everyone, it was a quiet flight home.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 01:54
  #242 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
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If JQ price themself out of the market, I find it hard that QF will pick it up. Just look at the customer base, they will be priced out by QF due to affordability and therefore it’s gone.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 01:54
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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his mates in Qantas were openly seeing this as an opportunity to get some 787 flying back to Mainline and AIPA was keen on offering to pick up the Jetstar 787 flying when they priced themselves out of the low cost market.
Absolute horse sh#t
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 01:59
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hotnhigh View Post
Absolute horse sh#t
Agreed.

As a QF pilot and a member of AIPA, I wish the Jetstar pilots all the best in their dispute with management.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 02:03
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Just telling you what he told me.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 02:21
  #246 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
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He’s not even in mainline yet Ollie, and he’s going to get a bit of a rude shock when he gets here with that kind of attitude. Either he is full of crap or his mates are, there’s nothing but support here for what the Jetstar pilots are going through. Don’t forget most of us went through PIA and got locked out, it’s not a good feeling. To think Mainline Pilots would use this to their advantage is rubbish.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 03:07
  #247 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
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I can only say I fully support the betterment of all pilots terms and conditions in Australia.

While we bicker and fight over the crumbs, the executive class took the whole pie.

In a leaked memo from Citibank to the 1%ers, it was mentioned the biggest threat to the plutocracy is we have 99% of the votes in our western democracies. Their biggest fear is may rise up against them.

I can tell you, the middle class has had enough.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 04:00
  #248 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by A little birdie View Post
How do those going on PIA think Joyce is going to respond? What do you hope to gain by engaging in this type of PIA? What in Joyce’s actions or inactions makes you think he will respond differently in 2019 than how he did in 2011 or at any other stage over the last decade?
Jetstar colleagues, best of luck with what you're doing. We can only hope we'll be right behind you if the AIPA exec ever figure out what PIA is. Don't listen to the threats, the only recourse in the FWA is a lockout and it's just a formality (if it ever gets to that). Enjoy the day/days off at home and know that you can stay at home a lot longer than JQ can keep cancelling flights.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 04:34
  #249 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Originally Posted by A little birdie View Post
How do those going on PIA think Joyce is going to respond? What do you hope to gain by engaging in this type of PIA? What in Joyce’s actions or inactions makes you think he will respond differently in 2019 than how he did in 2011 or at any other stage over the last decade?
What do you think the outcome is if pilots fold?
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 06:14
  #250 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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The PR battle

Afternoon those concerned with the dispute.
Today's Brisbane paper carried a story with mention of the pay dispute using the words "pilots walk off the job ... delays, disruptions" and its all the pilots fault.
The quote from the company CEO was "it is cynically timed to hurt the travelling public .... we (Jstar) are proactively contacting customers ... " and then reference was made to the pay increase of 15% in the first year.
And the final part (to show the greed of the pilots), and, I am paraphrasing, "they already get $300,000 a year".
I would suggest that it is time to put your own circumstances out there rather than let Jstar blame you for the problems.
I hope the Union has access to journalists as does Jstar. It might be worth the effort to have the public on your side.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 06:35
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A little birdie View Post
Pilots ‘folding’ is not the only other option available when held up against the scheduled stop work.

Prior to under taking PIA should one not ask ‘what do we hope to gain and how will this specific PIA achieve it’? The next step is to ask ‘how is my adversary likely to respond and what are the ramifications of that’. If those questions can’t be answered then how well advised is the PIA?

So, two non answers, genuine questions characterised as a threat, and the opposite to these PIA stop works being to ‘fold’. I hope that someone comes up with something better than that!

I hope the JQ pilots are clear about the pros and cons of the actions you’ve chosen. I hope you achieve what you set out to achieve. Good luck.
Anyone who has been around for a few of these know very well what the company will respond with and that is a firm NO to pilot terms, this is he only way Jetstar can “negotiate”. If that we’re not the case, they would be entertaining the notion that they should come with a realistic offer instead of running to the press to denigrate their pilots.

PIA is the only language they speak! Bring it on!
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 06:46
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by XYGT View Post
I would suggest that it is time to put your own circumstances out there rather than let Jstar blame you for the problems.
I hope the Union has access to journalists as does Jstar. It might be worth the effort to have the public on your side.
Unions generally don't have mult-million dollar advertising accounts with media companies, exclusive lounges to luxuriate in prior to departure, nor erroneous "bonus" frequent flyer points for the bosses and underlings. They donate an iPad and a chairman's lounge membership for every member of Federal Parliament. In fact, a unions may well be breaking the law spending their members money in such a cavalier & corrupt manner. Corruption on a commercial basis however, is completely legit, swindling unions members funds to gain influence is a serious issue that would be worth of a multi-part broadsheet investigation and the corruption watchdogs!

The media is a commercial business, press release regurgitators (formally referred to as journalists) are corrupted to the core by payment "in-kind" by the big end of town.

No media would ever print the pilots side of the argument with a shred of sympathy.

So, no the "truth" won't be televised.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 07:35
  #253 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
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Here’s what worries me about the AFAP response to AIPA’s warning (and I have no horse in this race, I’m just concerned that someone might get hurt):

The AFAP did not state that they had “strong legal advice”, they merely said that other unions in the past had advised their members that it was OK to engage in PIA even if they joined after the vote.

I’m sorry, but that is not a strong legal precedent, IMHO, and if that is the best they are going to put in writing then I suspect that someone might be carefully trying to cover their arse. Ask yourself what they didn’t say.

Now, the AFAP have lawyers, and AIPA have lawyers: they obviously disagree with each other on this topic, or at least are demonstrating differing legal risk thresholds. Qantas have lawyers too, and you can bet what they will be seeking if any of you take unprotected industrial action. Qantas goes into “battle mode” when PIA starts, and may start behaving differently to what you have been accustomed. Remember also, you will be lumped into the same bucket as the TWU.

AIPA would not have provided this advice if they did not consider there to be a legal risk. It would not be anything else. It most certainly would not be a Union V Union stunt.

Please tread warily my friends if you joined AFAP after the vote. Just because “other unions” dealing with “other companies” may have gotten away with it in the past, doesn’t mean you can’t or won’t be fined or sacked for taking unprotected industrial action.

If AJ can make an example of even one of you, it has the potential to destroy morale, and/or divert attention from the core issue. I wouldn’t advise it, it just isn’t worth it. There is already an overwhelming number of protected AFAP members.

It would be a pity if the AFAP’s resources, and the will of the members, were to be diverted to attempting to reinstate the employment of one or a few individuals instead of the keeping the attention on the EBA.

Fight the fight carefully and hope your opponent makes an error. Don’t be the one to make the dumb error, especially after you have been warned.

Remember: “my union told me it’s ok” is not a defence.

To the rest of you: good luck folks, I’m with you in spirit! (And this post is not legal advice).

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Old 12th Dec 2019, 08:11
  #254 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Pilots ‘folding’ is not the only other option available when held up against the scheduled stop work.

Prior to under taking PIA should one not ask ‘what do we hope to gain and how will this specific PIA achieve it’? The next step is to ask ‘how is my adversary likely to respond and what are the ramifications of that’. If those questions can’t be answered then how well advised is the PIA?

So, two non answers, genuine questions characterised as a threat, and the opposite to these PIA stop works being to ‘fold’. I hope that someone comes up with something better than that!
So what are the other options? Wearing orange ties and making protest PAs has proven to be a waste of time. You can't refuse to work overtime. You can't 'sick out'. The reality is that management are probably not serious about making a deal so the only options are to either take strike action, resign or just carry on with status quo. Even mass resignations has proven to be useless as the government will kindly bring in the military to help out. So I am not sure what other options you have.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 08:56
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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What concerns me about this action is that the aim of it is pretty vague. Normally PIA comes a bit further down the track and can be focussed along the lines of ‘they are offering ‘x’ and we want ‘x’. Here is seems to be ‘they are saying no to everything and we want everything’, so where does it end, if Jetstar says after the 20th, here is 4% is it back to PIA, back into another 12 months of meetings or a yes vote. Indeed would Jetstar agreeing to meetings every other day until resolved be enough to withdraw PIA, I am genuinely interested and hope for the AFAP pilots to get a good settlement. It is just hard to see where this is going considering it would appear that nothing from the log of claims is settled.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 09:42
  #256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
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FWIW, Slater and Gordon has provided legal advise that AIPA’s assertions are incorrect.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 09:56
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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Go for it then. Best of luck. I know what I'd do, but if you're comfortable, let it rip. I sure hope the AFAP is right.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 10:14
  #258 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
Here’s what worries me about the AFAP response to AIPA’s warning


AIPA's warning was nothing more than an attempt to destabilise and undermine the PIA about to take place this weekend, for whatever reason. Slater and Gordon have provided an indepedant ruling in favour of the AFAP. Absolutely mind blowing that instead of seeking unity, division is being sought. No wonder as pilots we are the laughing stock around the world!
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 10:34
  #259 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Legal advise is like financial advise, its based on one person's or firm's interpretation of the law as it applies at the time. If it is tested in court only then is the advise proved to be incorrect or correct.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 11:16
  #260 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Brisbane
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Of those urging caution in taking AFAP advice, who's going to brave enough and also state that they are an AIPA member?
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