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Old 15th May 2017, 23:46
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Without trying to sound negative to the ATR group, I think it's a pretty unrealistic expectation that all displaced pilots would receive a 737 job, I thing the reality of the situation is that a significant proportion of the pilots can expect to be 777 SOs before getting into a LH seat of a 737. It's unfortunate and I understand the situation has been forced upon the majority but that's how the GDOJ works, there are still people with higher seniority bidding for east coast 737 jobs.
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Old 16th May 2017, 01:04
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"reprehensible?" Help me out here, in what ways? And what did Vipa do differently? What would you have done, within the confines of the current EBA?
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Old 16th May 2017, 02:13
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Originally Posted by Bluewhine View Post
Without trying to sound negative to the ATR group, I think it's a pretty unrealistic expectation that all displaced pilots would receive a 737 job, I thing the reality of the situation is that a significant proportion of the pilots can expect to be 777 SOs before getting into a LH seat of a 737. It's unfortunate and I understand the situation has been forced upon the majority but that's how the GDOJ works, there are still people with higher seniority bidding for east coast 737 jobs.
The ATR pilots or at least the ones I have spoken with would completely agree with this. No one would dispute having to move to Perth or NZ on the 737 or become 777 SOs, if they want to bid off of the ATR if that's all their seniority allowed; however, in the last import the company decided that GDOJ was irrelevant (still under negotiation I believe) and that external hires could potentially come in and take what east coast bases are available ahead of group pilots and earn more in the process.

Seniority is sacrosanct and the EBA is very precise on this, however, VA true to form, believe that they can bend and twist around the agreement, the agreement that they signed, as they see fit.

Managemt are at a loss as to why attrition in the company is at an ever increasing level. It's beyond me how they think that alienating large swathes of the pilot body is an effective retention strategy.

It is simple, the BNE ATR base is to close, pilots and their families are to be displaced. All VA have to do is honor the EBA, the agreement that they signed.
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Old 16th May 2017, 04:04
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With all due respect to the VARA pilots. You weren't on the GDOJ list 2 years ago. You didn't decide to join the group when you started with Skywest. You're only part of the group by default and now you're demanding 737 East coast bases or bypass pay in lieu? Have a good look at yourselves and where you're at. Be thankful for the win that you got (joining the group at the expense others that lost out). If the same thing happened at Qlink you can bet your ass they'd all be on the street! Let the bid import run its course and stop trying to take a mile after you were given an inch.
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Old 16th May 2017, 04:12
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The Feds were very quick to set in stone what would happen come the day they ever replaced the 330 and 777 with a single wide-body type. Base protection I seem to recall. No-one would be displaced, everyone keeps their position and base.

As fast as they were doing this, they were ensuring that the E-jet would be treated as a 'retirement', not a 'replacement' (excuse me if the definitions are not correct, I deleted that email a long time ago in disgust), even though the company was touting that 'all E-jet flying would be replaced by the 737 ...'

To the Feds credit, they saw the lie for what it was.... the 100 seater capability was been retired from Virgin, not replaced, out shoring our jobs to other entities in a direct breach of the EBA.

It was also said the company were happy to keep E-jet pilot's in their bases, but this was quickly turfed by the union to allow 737 commuters to get back to Brisbane.

What would I have done differently? Perhaps called out the company on their blatant lies. Done a little research about what was claimed and what eventuated in WA (all E-jet flying will be done by the 737...), and how that is all just replaying now on the East Coast.

I understand the constraints of the EBA, but it seems only one side has to live under these restraints.
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Old 16th May 2017, 04:25
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Originally Posted by skysook View Post
With all due respect to the VARA pilots. You weren't on the GDOJ list 2 years ago. You didn't decide to join the group when you started with Skywest. You're only part of the group by default and now you're demanding 737 East coast bases or bypass pay in lieu? Have a good look at yourselves and where you're at. Be thankful for the win that you got (joining the group at the expense others that lost out). If the same thing happened at Qlink you can bet your ass they'd all be on the street! Let the bid import run its course and stop trying to take a mile after you were given an inch.
I think I'm the only one on here suggesting bypass pay, I don't fly for virgin/vara or in Australia anymore nor would I want to, so don't paint vara guys with that brush based on my own opinion.

I don't know the ins and outs of your Eba and seniority list hence why I asked the question. Though I do find it funny on one hand when people tout the seniority/union line then on the other hand drop other guys like a sack of shit even if they've been stapled to a seniority list. You can't have it both ways, you either run with a seniority based system or you don't.
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Old 16th May 2017, 04:37
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I think you're being a bit unfair to claim that the Feds were "ensuring" anything. Perhaps you've heard the term "pick the battles you can win". That wasn't one of them. In any case, while most of us knew what the real intent from the company was, and could see it for the crap it was, knowing is one thing, proving is another. Calling them out on it was not going to change the outcome. How could it? Too late after the fact. There are plenty of failings all round in this circus. The last thing we as a workforce need is this bullshit infighting. That is simply handing the company the tools to beat us with. But, what the [email protected] would I know.
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Old 16th May 2017, 04:38
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Originally Posted by havick View Post
You can't have it both ways, you either run with a seniority based system or you don't.

Exactly............
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Old 16th May 2017, 04:42
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Skysook I suggest you read Lack of Interests post again very carefully. This is the common mood and thought process on the line on the ATR at the moment. No ATR pilot is demanding anything other than The Company should stick to its word and the EBA provisions. Also no ATR pilot is demanding to be placed ahead of another VA pilot who is higher on the GDOJ list, only what they are entitled to get based on their relative GDOJ position.

Its frustrating to see at times like this group pilots can be lured into attacking each other when it is the Companies continued poor management that is the root cause of these problems.
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Old 16th May 2017, 05:01
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Originally Posted by skysook View Post
With all due respect to the VARA pilots. You weren't on the GDOJ list 2 years ago. You didn't decide to join the group when you started with Skywest. You're only part of the group by default and now you're demanding 737 East coast bases or bypass pay in lieu? Have a good look at yourselves and where you're at. Be thankful for the win that you got (joining the group at the expense others that lost out). If the same thing happened at Qlink you can bet your ass they'd all be on the street! Let the bid import run its course and stop trying to take a mile after you were given an inch.

No one is demanding anything. Many are simply leaving. We are respectfully requesting that established group processes and agreements be followed.

So in your little world, even though our seniority numbers are now eligible for east coast bases, we should be happy that externals or those lower on seniority may be placed over us just because we have been on the GDOJ list for 2 years? When we reach 3 years would you be happy then if we are eligible to bid or would you still prefer external candidates or those lower in seniority be given preference? No one is demanding east coast bases. It's simple, if the seniority number allows an east coast base then it should be allocated. If it only allows a NZ or Perth base and the pilot wants to move off the ATR, then that will be their allocated base, no more and no less.

It seems that you have no problem with an agreement between employer and employee being consistently ignored just because we have not been on the list for a period of time predetermined by you. I think you need to take a good look at yourself.
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Old 16th May 2017, 05:32
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I think you're being a bit unfair to claim that the Feds were "ensuring" anything. Perhaps you've heard the term "pick the battles you can win". That wasn't one of them.
Maybe to both. I'm looking forward to the battle that can be won.
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Old 16th May 2017, 05:52
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The pilots can't even win the battle for something resembling food in the crew "meals" - I wouldn't hold my breath...
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Old 16th May 2017, 09:03
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FL, so do I......
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Old 16th May 2017, 10:42
  #274 (permalink)  
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Lack of interest, thanks for your post.

Regarding your comment that most of the ATR pilots want Sydney or Melbourne, then why don't they take the Canberra base and commute from either Sydney (driveable) or Melbourne and bid for a Sydney or Melbourne B737 FO slot? There have been a number of pilots who live in Canberra and commute to Sydney, so the reverse could be done. Given the amount of movement over the next few years most would end up on the B737 within the next 12-18 months. And it would mean only one move from Brisbane to either Sydney or Melbourne.

The ATR pilots are not the first pilots who have to move base to keep their jobs. During the GFC a number of Brisbane B737 FOs were forced to move to Sydney to keep their job. And don't forget there has been a large number of Sydney based B737 Captain's who have been commuting from Brisbane for 9+ years, while waiting for their Brisbane slot to come up.

With regards to your comment about the email stating that if the ATR pilots don't bid in the next import then NZ or Perth are the only likely bases, well the remaining Ejet pilots that haven't put a bid in have been told the same and that's the reality. If you don't bid, the East Coast slots will go to those next on the GDOJ or to externals, as the company needs to fill the slots.
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Old 16th May 2017, 11:10
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.............

Last edited by Lack of interest; 16th May 2017 at 13:08. Reason: Duplicate post
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Old 16th May 2017, 11:27
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Hi BPA, I am sure that many of the pilots are looking at that as an option, many are also looking to leave to pastures new. The trouble is we don't know if we are likely to get either Sydney or Melbourne in the future as they bases may be potentially allocated to others outside of seniority.

We understand that many before us have gone through base closures, I don't want to give too much away about my personal circumstances but can assure you I've been through similar and worse. People aren't too happy about having to move but realize it's a company decision, the upset is over the potential allocation of preferential bases outside of the GDOJ list. If the company simply sticks to this list and process, they would irradiate a lot of the ill sentiment. If they want to retain people on the ATR then they should recognise and reward this. Surely it'll be cheaper and less disruption for everyone if they simply incentivised those that they want to retain on the ATR. They have done this already with the check captains I believe. Offer the crew a base on the equipment they have bid for now even if it won't be active for 12 or 18 months in accordance with their GDOJ number. I must reiterate the point, nobody and I mean nobody on the ATR believes in special treatment or an allocation outside of seniority. All we want is for VA to stick to their word just once and honour the EBA that they agreed upon! Allocate in accordance with bids and seniority and incentise those that they want to retain on the ATR. It is a simple as that.
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Old 16th May 2017, 13:01
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Walk up to any gate with your Nav bag and heart beat.
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Old 16th May 2017, 13:13
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Absolute Rubbish.[/QUOTE]

This simple statement of yours tells me that you weren't at the interviews and you weren't at the meetings where this was recognised and management promised to rectify questions such as those.
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Old 16th May 2017, 13:24
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Skysook takes the most arrogant post of the year!! It's only May and it's gonna be hard to beat that! Bravo!

Their EBA is available on your iPad. Perhaps read it before you rip the folks on it a new one for applying it?
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Old 17th May 2017, 01:38
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What a pleasure it will be for ATR guys to fly with you interceptheading. Im sure you will put them in their rightful place......
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