Virgin Australia recruitment
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This is the problem QF are currently facing as well. Internal candidates wanting to go to mainline are being held up because of the company not wanting to completely drain any one particular resource group.
It happens...
It happens...
Why not recruit to the ATR?
13th May 2017 06:34
13th May 2017 06:34
There will be enough 737 jobs for the existing ATR pilots, and promotion/basing opportunities will come up earlier for them than for any subsequent new hires.
If you think you'd be better off taking a direct 737 job next year than starting soon on the ATR/777 you may not understand the GDOJ list.
True, Open Descent, but at VA the pain of waiting on your turboprop job is salved by the GDOJ list. From what I understand QLink DH8 pilots don't progress up the Qantas list like ATR/F100 pilots shuffle up Virgin's list.
If they do get bypass pay then that's great, if not then it's kinda a sucky deal that new hires can get into the 737 ahead of them. Building seniority on a list but without the pay is a shitty consolation if that's how it does in fact work.
How do you recruit the 150-180 737 FOs needed through a fleet of 6 turboprops?
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It isn't a realistic number. It is more like 50 from what I have been told although I have a feeling that it is a moving feast for poor old VA and would change on any given day.
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The company are attempting to interview around 180 by the end of the year. Working on average success rates in the interview process, they are hoping that will yield around 100 odd new pilots.
It doesn't mean they will get them but it's what they are aiming at, knowing full well the string of resignations will continue throughout the year and well into next if QF keep putting people on.
As far as the VARA pilots progressing onto the 737, the company are requiring that they be interviewed and assessed in the sim before allowing them their GDOJ number to afford them a place on the jet. Given all of Qantas's subsidiary pilots are required to do the entire process as well, it's not an unusual request.
Understandably this takes time, and any VARA pilot delayed movement to the 737 will not find themselves junior to any direct hires should the later begin before them.
As Goat Whisperer has previously mentioned, there will be a huge requirement for 737 drivers over the next couple of years, so provided they meet the company standard they will move across at some stage.
It doesn't mean they will get them but it's what they are aiming at, knowing full well the string of resignations will continue throughout the year and well into next if QF keep putting people on.
As far as the VARA pilots progressing onto the 737, the company are requiring that they be interviewed and assessed in the sim before allowing them their GDOJ number to afford them a place on the jet. Given all of Qantas's subsidiary pilots are required to do the entire process as well, it's not an unusual request.
Understandably this takes time, and any VARA pilot delayed movement to the 737 will not find themselves junior to any direct hires should the later begin before them.
As Goat Whisperer has previously mentioned, there will be a huge requirement for 737 drivers over the next couple of years, so provided they meet the company standard they will move across at some stage.
I stand behind the 150-180 figure. That's just 737 FOs. Some of which will come from ATR, some from 777, a few from NZ, then when those ranks have been exhausted, some from off the street.
If you think that by taking an ATR position you have been so disadvantaged that you deserve bypass pay you may not be a suitable candidate for this position or this organisation. The ATR FO will get the chance to bid to 737 and get a desired base ahead of a later hired DE 737 FO.
My advice is simple: if you wish to join VA as a pilot, apply soon and take the first suitable job you are offered.
If the ATR is somehow beneath you, I advise not to accept a position on that fleet. Try your luck for DE 737 in 2108 and take a seniority number behind all of us.
I look forward to spending much of my 2017 and 2018 training ATR capts/FOs/777 SOs onto the 737NG. Hopefully I won't have to do the same with the MAX.
If you think that by taking an ATR position you have been so disadvantaged that you deserve bypass pay you may not be a suitable candidate for this position or this organisation. The ATR FO will get the chance to bid to 737 and get a desired base ahead of a later hired DE 737 FO.
My advice is simple: if you wish to join VA as a pilot, apply soon and take the first suitable job you are offered.
If the ATR is somehow beneath you, I advise not to accept a position on that fleet. Try your luck for DE 737 in 2108 and take a seniority number behind all of us.
I look forward to spending much of my 2017 and 2018 training ATR capts/FOs/777 SOs onto the 737NG. Hopefully I won't have to do the same with the MAX.
I stand behind the 150-180 figure. That's just 737 FOs. Some of which will come from ATR, some from 777, a few from NZ, then when those ranks have been exhausted, some from off the street.
If you think that by taking an ATR position you have been so disadvantaged that you deserve bypass pay you may not be a suitable candidate for this position or this organisation. The ATR FO will get the chance to bid to 737 and get a desired base ahead of a later hired DE 737 FO.
My advice is simple: if you wish to join VA as a pilot, apply soon and take the first suitable job you are offered.
If the ATR is somehow beneath you, I advise not to accept a position on that fleet. Try your luck for DE 737 in 2108 and take a seniority number behind all of us.
I look forward to spending much of my 2017 and 2018 training ATR capts/FOs/777 SOs onto the 737NG. Hopefully I won't have to do the same with the MAX.
If you think that by taking an ATR position you have been so disadvantaged that you deserve bypass pay you may not be a suitable candidate for this position or this organisation. The ATR FO will get the chance to bid to 737 and get a desired base ahead of a later hired DE 737 FO.
My advice is simple: if you wish to join VA as a pilot, apply soon and take the first suitable job you are offered.
If the ATR is somehow beneath you, I advise not to accept a position on that fleet. Try your luck for DE 737 in 2108 and take a seniority number behind all of us.
I look forward to spending much of my 2017 and 2018 training ATR capts/FOs/777 SOs onto the 737NG. Hopefully I won't have to do the same with the MAX.
Not sure what the VARA EBA says about this, but the narrow body EBA has no bypass pay. You are frozen on type for 30 months from check. It can be waived after 2 recurrent checks if there are no suitable non frozen applicants on the pilot list.
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Anyone complaining about flying the ATR would surely be in the minority, and you'd have to be crazy to turn it down hoping for a DE 73 spot in in 2108 (or any other year). Also with the very low numbers bidding for the New Zealand spots that would indicate no one really cares about externals there either. However when it comes to Australian based flying there would be quite an uproar if they hired externally to fill those spots bypassing those already on the GDOJ with bids in the system. Just a humble opinion...
Anecdotally from what I hear, Goats estimates of the crew shortfall would be bang on the money. Of course I don't have a dog in this race...
Anecdotally from what I hear, Goats estimates of the crew shortfall would be bang on the money. Of course I don't have a dog in this race...
Is it just me who thinks that the discussion around paying ATR pilots 737 wages because they can't fly 737s YET but would like to is ludicrous? I'd like to fly an A330, but I don't demand A330 pay while I'm waiting. Why not pay them 777 check capt pay?
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Goat, I think the argument about bypass pay if for those ATR pilots who have the GODJ seniority to go to the B737, but won't be released (otherwise there would be zero pilot's to fly the ATR). So bypass pay becomes a reasonable proposition if anyone junior, or externals are going to be offered 737 positions.
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My understanding is the ATR pilots can remain on type and move to Sydney or Canberra (if based in Brisbane) or bid across to the B737 (FO) / B777 (SO). It's up to the individual to decide what they want to do. Apparently there is also a 12 month commuting offer on the table for those who stay on type and will be forced to move when the Brisbane base closes.
Last edited by BPA; 15th May 2017 at 12:12.
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Many of the BNE ATR drivers were happy on the ATR and many did not want to bid across to the jets. A large percentage have already flown jets for other operators already. Nothing special. Many of us chose lifestyle over equipment.
VA have decided to close the BNE base and many were then forced to evaluate what is best for them and their families. With the BNE base closing, only SYD and CBR bases are offered on the ATR, however, SYD isn't really an option for most because there will only be 6 captains and 6 FOs there. Many do not want to go to Canberra and with it not being a jet base, will have to move again when the company finally releases them. Due to this, a number of pilots have asked for voluntary redundancy, however, the company will not entertain this.
The BNE ATR pilots have been forced to bid for jet positions. Moving across to the jet isn't that straight forward. Up until recently, psychometric testing, an interview and a sim check were required. The interview consisted of nugget questions such as "why do you want to work for Virgin"! The psychometric testing has since been dropped and apparently the interview now is more aligned to recognise that the pilot they're interviewing is already on the VA AOC, under the VA training and checking system and already flies VA passengers!
The commuting offer is indeed for 12 months, however, that's not the full story. The original commuting offer was just duty travel, no accommodation, no transport and no allowances. The unions dug their heels in and now BNE based ATR people can commute for 12 months but they will not receive any transport, accommodation or allowances after the beginning of November, however, duty travel will be provided - this will make reserve duties costly after November.
Recruiting externals on to the 737 ahead of ATR pilots has nothing to do with who flies a jet first. It's to do with basing. A BNE 737 base is some years away for ATR people based on the GDOJ. Most of the ATR pilots want to operate out of Sydney or Melbourne. Places in these bases are limited. SA himself wrote an email to the ATR group explaining that if we didn't bid on this current round then only NZ and Perth are likely for us in the future, so we placed our bids. We were told at this point that they would move us off when they could and some courses wouldn't be planned until next year. Fair enough we all thought, at least we will know where we are going and can either commute for the year or make short term accommodation provisions.
Again with VA, this isn't the full story. We have since been told that VA will only release 20 ATR pilots off of the ATR. The company said this will not be based on GDOJ but rather based on who has completed their jet assessments already. This was a clever ploy because generally many of those who have completed their assessments are down the GDOJ list and aren't even in BNE. The senior guys and gals in BNE were happy there and have not yet completed their assessments. This is an underhand tactic to keep all of the experienced people on the fleet. I believe as of the last day or two that the unions are still in negotiations to have VA actually follow the EBA and hence not releasing the newest bid awards.
The VARA EBA was agreed for VA ATR pilots. Our EBA which VA agreed upon has the provision for bypass pay. Put simply if the company decides to hold a pilot back on a position when his or her GDOJ number comes up then they receive bypass pay for that position! It is their turn to earn that salary and are being held back for no fault of their own. It becomes doubly frustrating at the prospect of external candidates lower down the list not only taking a preferred base but also earning more in the process. The argument about getting 777 captains pay is absurd and no one is asking for more than they are entitled to, so please stop with the sensationalism.
If the company want to keep experience on the fleet then they should simply recognize it and reward it. Pay bypass pay to those eligible to move, give course start dates and bases to pilots now so they know where they'll be in 12 or 18 months. Allocate the more favourable bases to those in order of GDOJ ahead of externals even if they have to stay on the ATR for 12 or 18 months. Put all new hires mandatorily onto the ATR where they have the choice to upgrade or move onto other fleets as their seniority allows.
VA have decided to close the BNE base and many were then forced to evaluate what is best for them and their families. With the BNE base closing, only SYD and CBR bases are offered on the ATR, however, SYD isn't really an option for most because there will only be 6 captains and 6 FOs there. Many do not want to go to Canberra and with it not being a jet base, will have to move again when the company finally releases them. Due to this, a number of pilots have asked for voluntary redundancy, however, the company will not entertain this.
The BNE ATR pilots have been forced to bid for jet positions. Moving across to the jet isn't that straight forward. Up until recently, psychometric testing, an interview and a sim check were required. The interview consisted of nugget questions such as "why do you want to work for Virgin"! The psychometric testing has since been dropped and apparently the interview now is more aligned to recognise that the pilot they're interviewing is already on the VA AOC, under the VA training and checking system and already flies VA passengers!
The commuting offer is indeed for 12 months, however, that's not the full story. The original commuting offer was just duty travel, no accommodation, no transport and no allowances. The unions dug their heels in and now BNE based ATR people can commute for 12 months but they will not receive any transport, accommodation or allowances after the beginning of November, however, duty travel will be provided - this will make reserve duties costly after November.
Recruiting externals on to the 737 ahead of ATR pilots has nothing to do with who flies a jet first. It's to do with basing. A BNE 737 base is some years away for ATR people based on the GDOJ. Most of the ATR pilots want to operate out of Sydney or Melbourne. Places in these bases are limited. SA himself wrote an email to the ATR group explaining that if we didn't bid on this current round then only NZ and Perth are likely for us in the future, so we placed our bids. We were told at this point that they would move us off when they could and some courses wouldn't be planned until next year. Fair enough we all thought, at least we will know where we are going and can either commute for the year or make short term accommodation provisions.
Again with VA, this isn't the full story. We have since been told that VA will only release 20 ATR pilots off of the ATR. The company said this will not be based on GDOJ but rather based on who has completed their jet assessments already. This was a clever ploy because generally many of those who have completed their assessments are down the GDOJ list and aren't even in BNE. The senior guys and gals in BNE were happy there and have not yet completed their assessments. This is an underhand tactic to keep all of the experienced people on the fleet. I believe as of the last day or two that the unions are still in negotiations to have VA actually follow the EBA and hence not releasing the newest bid awards.
The VARA EBA was agreed for VA ATR pilots. Our EBA which VA agreed upon has the provision for bypass pay. Put simply if the company decides to hold a pilot back on a position when his or her GDOJ number comes up then they receive bypass pay for that position! It is their turn to earn that salary and are being held back for no fault of their own. It becomes doubly frustrating at the prospect of external candidates lower down the list not only taking a preferred base but also earning more in the process. The argument about getting 777 captains pay is absurd and no one is asking for more than they are entitled to, so please stop with the sensationalism.
If the company want to keep experience on the fleet then they should simply recognize it and reward it. Pay bypass pay to those eligible to move, give course start dates and bases to pilots now so they know where they'll be in 12 or 18 months. Allocate the more favourable bases to those in order of GDOJ ahead of externals even if they have to stay on the ATR for 12 or 18 months. Put all new hires mandatorily onto the ATR where they have the choice to upgrade or move onto other fleets as their seniority allows.
Goat, I think the argument about bypass pay if for those ATR pilots who have the GODJ seniority to go to the B737, but won't be released (otherwise there would be zero pilot's to fly the ATR). So bypass pay becomes a reasonable proposition if anyone junior, or externals are going to be offered 737 positions.
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Great post 'Lack of Interest', obviously from someone at or near ground zero...
VA have demonstrated again and again that they will do what ever is expedient and convenient for them, regardless of what the EBA says.
The unions have also demonstrated time and again they will do whatever is convenient for them. Example, the AFAP's treatment of E-jet pilots during the so called 'de-commissioning' process has been nothing short of reprehensible. Happy to throw a section of the pilot group under the bus to further their own interests.
VA have demonstrated again and again that they will do what ever is expedient and convenient for them, regardless of what the EBA says.
The unions have also demonstrated time and again they will do whatever is convenient for them. Example, the AFAP's treatment of E-jet pilots during the so called 'de-commissioning' process has been nothing short of reprehensible. Happy to throw a section of the pilot group under the bus to further their own interests.
