300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???
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What a mixed up bunch of garbage Willie.
All the major competitors of Qantas pay similar wages and in quite a few cases more.
Many don't carry second officers but instead 2 capts and 2 f/o's against 1 capt, 1 f/o and 2 s/o's for qantas on long range flying.
The myth of pilot wages being a problem has been done to death and those that bring it up usually do so because 1.they want to divert attention from the real problems at Qantas. 2.they have a chip on their shoulder because they didn't make the grade. 3.they are too lazy or dumb to gather the info and think for themselves or 4. it fits their ideology.
As for your point that Qantas has a budget therefore pilots are paid too much......well that makes as much sense as the rest of your post.
All the major competitors of Qantas pay similar wages and in quite a few cases more.
Many don't carry second officers but instead 2 capts and 2 f/o's against 1 capt, 1 f/o and 2 s/o's for qantas on long range flying.
The myth of pilot wages being a problem has been done to death and those that bring it up usually do so because 1.they want to divert attention from the real problems at Qantas. 2.they have a chip on their shoulder because they didn't make the grade. 3.they are too lazy or dumb to gather the info and think for themselves or 4. it fits their ideology.
As for your point that Qantas has a budget therefore pilots are paid too much......well that makes as much sense as the rest of your post.
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Let's be clear, we all wish we could have Q salaries, but as Dr. Phil says, how is that working out for you?
So don't keep falling for the Sh#t that keeps on coming out from the QF spin doctors, it just makes the ones that jump on the bandwagon look stupid.
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Its all about Supply and Demand
Unfortunately the market theory of wage determination will likely see QF pilot wages fall in the future. (There will be significant productivity improvements as well).
I'm sure if you halved the salary you'd still get shiny-jet-syndrome afflicted kids signing up for the gig. (Probably even if you QUARTERED the salary LOL!)
Still many, many more applicants than positions available (as evidenced by the massive over-subscription for the "buy-yourself-a-job-with-Jetstar" Cadetship).
As identified by numerous posters, however, QF's main competitive problems are company-wide, cost-base and management related. Pilot salaries, even when much higher than average, are minimally significant to the company bottom line.
Anyway... back to the voluntary (and possibly compulsory) redundancy issue...
Any news?
PG
PS. No whinging here...and certainly no troll. I've been adding to the reasoned debate on these boards now for more than 15 years...look at my Join Date.
I am all for Aussie success stories...I sincerely hope QF can be one again.
I'm sure if you halved the salary you'd still get shiny-jet-syndrome afflicted kids signing up for the gig. (Probably even if you QUARTERED the salary LOL!)
Still many, many more applicants than positions available (as evidenced by the massive over-subscription for the "buy-yourself-a-job-with-Jetstar" Cadetship).
As identified by numerous posters, however, QF's main competitive problems are company-wide, cost-base and management related. Pilot salaries, even when much higher than average, are minimally significant to the company bottom line.
Anyway... back to the voluntary (and possibly compulsory) redundancy issue...
Any news?
PG
PS. No whinging here...and certainly no troll. I've been adding to the reasoned debate on these boards now for more than 15 years...look at my Join Date.
I am all for Aussie success stories...I sincerely hope QF can be one again.
Last edited by Popgun; 19th May 2014 at 07:50. Reason: Added PS. after gone_fishin post below
The myth of pilot wages being a problem has been done to death and those that bring it up usually do so because 1.they want to divert attention from the real problems at Qantas. 2.they have a chip on their shoulder because they didn't make the grade. 3.they are too lazy or dumb to gather the info and think for themselves or 4. it fits their ideology.
Stalins Ugly Brother, I didn't say that All Qantas Pilots pilot understood their very fortunate terms and conditions in a global context, however I do believe that many are starting too.
Stalins Ugly Brother Said:
"We are the obvious targets being the largest salary earning union group in the organisation, purely by offering a skill at a salary that for a long time was the standard of where the profession was"
I would agree with that statement more or less, I guess that's my point. To suggest however, that this is still the case globally is perhaps stretching a long bow, albeit, there will always be someone earning more and someone earning less.
In the mean time, where is the expansion and where are the promotions?
Trust me when I say I really wish that Qantas was still flourishing domestically and internationally. It will be difficult with the current management at the helm though, I would suggest most of us would agree on that much.
Stalins Ugly Brother Said:
"We are the obvious targets being the largest salary earning union group in the organisation, purely by offering a skill at a salary that for a long time was the standard of where the profession was"
I would agree with that statement more or less, I guess that's my point. To suggest however, that this is still the case globally is perhaps stretching a long bow, albeit, there will always be someone earning more and someone earning less.
In the mean time, where is the expansion and where are the promotions?
Trust me when I say I really wish that Qantas was still flourishing domestically and internationally. It will be difficult with the current management at the helm though, I would suggest most of us would agree on that much.
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Seems all that is necessary for those who want to have their Qantas VR Offer treated concessionally by the ATO is for the ATO Commissioner approve what Qantas is intending to offer accepted as an Approved Early Retirement Scheme.
FYI
Approved early retirement schemes
An approved early retirement scheme is a scheme that an employer puts into place to encourage certain groups or class of employees to retire early or resign.
Early retirement scheme payments are tax free, up to a limit based on the number of years the employee has worked for their employer. Any amount over the tax-free limit is treated as an employment termination payment. The tax-free limit is a flat dollar amount, plus an amount for each year of completed service with that employer. Indexation changes the tax-free limit on 1 July each year. For employees to be entitled to get the special concessional tax rates, the Commissioner of Taxation must approve the scheme before payments are made.
Payments that can be included:
• payment in lieu of notice
• severance payment of a number of weeks' pay for each year of service
• a gratuity or 'golden handshake'
• lump sum payments of unused long service leave paid on termination of employment, but not under a formal arrangement.
Payments that are not included:
• salary, wages or allowances owing to the employee, for work done or leave already taken for work completed
• lump sum payments of unused annual leave or leave loading paid on termination of employment
• lump sum payments of unused long service leave paid on termination of employment under a formal arrangement.
Conditions for payment:
• The payment is more than the amount the employer would have paid to you, if you voluntarily resigned or retired in other circumstances.
• The termination of employment is before you turn 65 and earlier than the date you would have left your employment anyway.
• Your employer does not have any agreement with another person to re-employ you.
• If you are related to the employer in some way, the payment is not more than it would have been if you were not related (known in tax law as dealing with each other at 'arm's length').
• The Commissioner of Taxation has approved the early retirement scheme.
Source: https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/W...ement-schemes/
Happy days for those intending to go.
FYI
Approved early retirement schemes
An approved early retirement scheme is a scheme that an employer puts into place to encourage certain groups or class of employees to retire early or resign.
Early retirement scheme payments are tax free, up to a limit based on the number of years the employee has worked for their employer. Any amount over the tax-free limit is treated as an employment termination payment. The tax-free limit is a flat dollar amount, plus an amount for each year of completed service with that employer. Indexation changes the tax-free limit on 1 July each year. For employees to be entitled to get the special concessional tax rates, the Commissioner of Taxation must approve the scheme before payments are made.
Payments that can be included:
• payment in lieu of notice
• severance payment of a number of weeks' pay for each year of service
• a gratuity or 'golden handshake'
• lump sum payments of unused long service leave paid on termination of employment, but not under a formal arrangement.
Payments that are not included:
• salary, wages or allowances owing to the employee, for work done or leave already taken for work completed
• lump sum payments of unused annual leave or leave loading paid on termination of employment
• lump sum payments of unused long service leave paid on termination of employment under a formal arrangement.
Conditions for payment:
• The payment is more than the amount the employer would have paid to you, if you voluntarily resigned or retired in other circumstances.
• The termination of employment is before you turn 65 and earlier than the date you would have left your employment anyway.
• Your employer does not have any agreement with another person to re-employ you.
• If you are related to the employer in some way, the payment is not more than it would have been if you were not related (known in tax law as dealing with each other at 'arm's length').
• The Commissioner of Taxation has approved the early retirement scheme.
Source: https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/W...ement-schemes/
Happy days for those intending to go.
Last edited by WorthWhat; 19th May 2014 at 09:04. Reason: layout
Nunc est bibendum
Pilot salaries, even when much higher than average, are minimally significant to the company bottom line.
As for it making a difference to the bottom line, try $75-100 million dollars difference.
We nee to realise that it is these conditions that will result in some crew being demoted and other crew not seeing promotion for a long time. We have been part of creating this problem and we need to be part of the solution. Even things like having different pay rates between aircraft (and thus encouraging changing of types to maximise earning potential) is part of the problem.
The solutions and changes required are significant and will involve pain for all of us. A bit like the budget though, this had been a long time in the making and the longer we put off taking our medicine, the sicker we will be when we finally realise the drastic action that had to be taken.
I'm happy to expand further but that'll do after a long day. I do have a juicy rumour but I'll leave that for tomorrow when I'm not so buggered.
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Australopithecus
“So, the Delta pilot makes 62% more fun tickets that I do.”
“I did not complain about my salary at all”
Really?
Wan
“If you are prepared to educate us”
No, that’s something each responsible person should do themselves. Don’t be so lazy on a topic so important.
Mypov
“All the major competitors of Qantas pay similar wages and in quite a few cases more.”
This is blatantly wrong and its rather disturbing that someone would buy into this propaganda. The truth is actually the opposite.
“Many don't carry second officers but instead 2 capts and 2 f/o's against 1 capt, 1 f/o and 2 s/o's for qantas on long range flying.”
True, and MANY forward facing pilots at your competitor airlines including captains make less than your second officers who cant even operate a sector.
“The myth of pilot wages being a problem has been done to death”
Simply not true. Anyone who can calculate a descent profile can also throw together some numbers to show how the wage differential between QF and CA/TG/MH etc would impact the bottom line. Employee compensation and benefits are vitally important to an airlines result and are one of the few things within the control of the business.
Gone fishin
“Unfortunately you cannot reason with these ridiculous people.”
You don’t need to. At some point the market will crash loudly down around the ears of QF staff especially pilots and the results will be there for all to see. There will be no need for reasoning.
“So, the Delta pilot makes 62% more fun tickets that I do.”
“I did not complain about my salary at all”
Really?
Wan
“If you are prepared to educate us”
No, that’s something each responsible person should do themselves. Don’t be so lazy on a topic so important.
Mypov
“All the major competitors of Qantas pay similar wages and in quite a few cases more.”
This is blatantly wrong and its rather disturbing that someone would buy into this propaganda. The truth is actually the opposite.
“Many don't carry second officers but instead 2 capts and 2 f/o's against 1 capt, 1 f/o and 2 s/o's for qantas on long range flying.”
True, and MANY forward facing pilots at your competitor airlines including captains make less than your second officers who cant even operate a sector.
“The myth of pilot wages being a problem has been done to death”
Simply not true. Anyone who can calculate a descent profile can also throw together some numbers to show how the wage differential between QF and CA/TG/MH etc would impact the bottom line. Employee compensation and benefits are vitally important to an airlines result and are one of the few things within the control of the business.
Gone fishin
“Unfortunately you cannot reason with these ridiculous people.”
You don’t need to. At some point the market will crash loudly down around the ears of QF staff especially pilots and the results will be there for all to see. There will be no need for reasoning.
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“A second officer at Qantas may earn similar to a first officer at an Australian competitor”
Would that be an Australian competitor that is also un profitable?
Your problem is NOT with other Australian carriers. Second Officers at Qantas in many cases earn MORE than Captains at airlines Qantas is trying to compete with. This is not the golden bullet that will determine the airlines future but you must understand that the business will not support the disparity for ever.
“….who would apply to work for Qantas?”
This bombshell indicates just how little you understand about employment and motivation. I will give you a hint; successful companies are often not the ones offering the highest salaries.
“If Qantas offered the lowest salaries in Australia would that satisfy you? Maybe. But then, who would be the top paid? And would they be getting paid too much?”
Who cares who pay the highest and lowest? The point is that labor costs at Qantas (and most legacy carriers) are considerably higher than competitors labor costs within similar markets. This will not last forever and the longer the can is kicked along the road, the harder the fall will be.
Would that be an Australian competitor that is also un profitable?
Your problem is NOT with other Australian carriers. Second Officers at Qantas in many cases earn MORE than Captains at airlines Qantas is trying to compete with. This is not the golden bullet that will determine the airlines future but you must understand that the business will not support the disparity for ever.
“….who would apply to work for Qantas?”
This bombshell indicates just how little you understand about employment and motivation. I will give you a hint; successful companies are often not the ones offering the highest salaries.
“If Qantas offered the lowest salaries in Australia would that satisfy you? Maybe. But then, who would be the top paid? And would they be getting paid too much?”
Who cares who pay the highest and lowest? The point is that labor costs at Qantas (and most legacy carriers) are considerably higher than competitors labor costs within similar markets. This will not last forever and the longer the can is kicked along the road, the harder the fall will be.
Fishin, my god u write rubbish. Your arguments are simplistic, naive and grossly inaccurate.
Just talk to an Emirates driver about what he actually takes home. AND, ask him about his workload (ie, productivity) at the same time. Then compare it to the pay and productivity of a QF S/O.
Just talk to an Emirates driver about what he actually takes home. AND, ask him about his workload (ie, productivity) at the same time. Then compare it to the pay and productivity of a QF S/O.
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“*Labor costs... and labour costs are two entirely different things. It's like debating with a two year old.”
Actually, from where I sit, there is only one way to spell labor.
Actually, from where I sit, there is only one way to spell labor.
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Ok, bring it on - I am not from Australia, never been there even. But, as I see it you blabber over each other's salary like that's the end of the world.
Now, from a European (particularly Swedish) flying public point of view, Qantas is the safest airline there is. Many would prefer Qantas for long haul, just because of this reputation. Such a reputation isn't built overnight and to keep the tops on their toes, maybe salaries might be a bit higher than usual.
NOW, the problem is.... I can't book a single Qantas flight from Sweden. There are some from Frankfurt and some from London.
Use your reputation, please, Qantas, create some useful routes and fill your planes. Cutting pay isn't necessarily the only way to make money.
We have our fair share of low budget airlines in Europe. Truth be told, people are getting more and more fed up with having to pay for water or being charged for your boarding pass. No leg space, no luggage, no service and no security margins for staff and passengers.
Sure, low costs are good for a certain niche of people but the major infatuation seem to have faded, at least in Europe. Me thinks a respectable airline with an excellent reputation would be very welcomed by many.
Whatever Qantas decides to do, I really hope you pilots who have created this flawless reputation feel that the majority of the flying public wouldn't care about your salary when they know that you get them from A to B without risking anybody's life. And that is what it boils down to. You are the guys who saves peoples lives and they know it.
Here is to Qantas management and they making good decisions. **klonk**
Now, from a European (particularly Swedish) flying public point of view, Qantas is the safest airline there is. Many would prefer Qantas for long haul, just because of this reputation. Such a reputation isn't built overnight and to keep the tops on their toes, maybe salaries might be a bit higher than usual.
NOW, the problem is.... I can't book a single Qantas flight from Sweden. There are some from Frankfurt and some from London.
Use your reputation, please, Qantas, create some useful routes and fill your planes. Cutting pay isn't necessarily the only way to make money.
We have our fair share of low budget airlines in Europe. Truth be told, people are getting more and more fed up with having to pay for water or being charged for your boarding pass. No leg space, no luggage, no service and no security margins for staff and passengers.
Sure, low costs are good for a certain niche of people but the major infatuation seem to have faded, at least in Europe. Me thinks a respectable airline with an excellent reputation would be very welcomed by many.
Whatever Qantas decides to do, I really hope you pilots who have created this flawless reputation feel that the majority of the flying public wouldn't care about your salary when they know that you get them from A to B without risking anybody's life. And that is what it boils down to. You are the guys who saves peoples lives and they know it.
Here is to Qantas management and they making good decisions. **klonk**
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Oh the irony Professor et al is significant pay increases (magnified on A380/B744 due to long sector lengths=overtime) and failure to improve productivity are a direct result of the QF failure to negotiate back in 2011.
Rather than negotiate, management chose to have FWA impose a determination. To go down this path entirely managements choice, even desire. They appear to have wanted FWA to do its dirty work for them, which was politely refused, even poking QF in the eye with significant pay increases & backpay, yet minimal productivity increases. To sheet the blame home to the pilots is completely disingenuous.
A quote from a former President of the Union, in writing to a major daily newspaper recently:
In hindsight, perhaps management needed the crisis in negotiations to precipitate a even bigger crisis (lockout), for a larger agenda.
The bottom line is failure to negotiate pay & productivity improvements has been entirely due to management. Pilots have ready to negotiate for many years, but cannot if the other party is unwilling to negotiate, and you know it.
Rather than negotiate, management chose to have FWA impose a determination. To go down this path entirely managements choice, even desire. They appear to have wanted FWA to do its dirty work for them, which was politely refused, even poking QF in the eye with significant pay increases & backpay, yet minimal productivity increases. To sheet the blame home to the pilots is completely disingenuous.
A quote from a former President of the Union, in writing to a major daily newspaper recently:
Qantas not unions' fault
In a meeting in February 2011, I offered Alan Joyce a two-year pay freeze and a commitment to rewrite our certified agreement.
This was rejected out of hand. It is an ideological war and Mr Joyce needed the pilots to be able to lock the staff out in 2011 at a cost of over $200 million. There is nothing wrong with industrial relations in Australia but there is a lot wrong with management.
..........................
Barry Jackson
Sydney, NSW
Australian Financial Review, page 35, Friday 7 March 2014
(my bold)
In a meeting in February 2011, I offered Alan Joyce a two-year pay freeze and a commitment to rewrite our certified agreement.
This was rejected out of hand. It is an ideological war and Mr Joyce needed the pilots to be able to lock the staff out in 2011 at a cost of over $200 million. There is nothing wrong with industrial relations in Australia but there is a lot wrong with management.
..........................
Barry Jackson
Sydney, NSW
Australian Financial Review, page 35, Friday 7 March 2014
(my bold)
The bottom line is failure to negotiate pay & productivity improvements has been entirely due to management. Pilots have ready to negotiate for many years, but cannot if the other party is unwilling to negotiate, and you know it.
Dont let anyone forget that Crew have been the first to sacrifice with pay freezes and cuts in various forms in the past.
It was when those sacrifices were used to increase managememt bonuses and continue to make absolutely insane short sighted and plain stupid, idiotic decisions that support for these cretins EVENTUALLY evaporated.
Unless you have worked for Qf you wont understand, but trust me when I say how much it hurts when people who havent lived it criticise the most loyal workforce it was possible to have.
Im sorry, but if you are hiding the fact you have failed on so many fronts and can ignore $4m a month in thrown away miney STORING!!! Brand new jets tht ANY OTHER AIRLINE WOULD KILL TO USE then you deserve to fail and anyone 'negotiating' with such idiots should treat them with total contempt.
I woul not be capable of Nathan Safe's oh-so-measured approach. He should be a shoe in for the next Papal commission!
This disussion of 2c pay differences between pilot groups drives me up the wall. Especially when it would NOT be an issue if te airline was actually 'managed'. They have managed a market monopoliser into forcing VR on its staff for christs sake! I cannot believe that is possible - in a space of 10 years, let alone have people say 'its all about the staff needing to change'.
Give me strength!
It was when those sacrifices were used to increase managememt bonuses and continue to make absolutely insane short sighted and plain stupid, idiotic decisions that support for these cretins EVENTUALLY evaporated.
Unless you have worked for Qf you wont understand, but trust me when I say how much it hurts when people who havent lived it criticise the most loyal workforce it was possible to have.
Im sorry, but if you are hiding the fact you have failed on so many fronts and can ignore $4m a month in thrown away miney STORING!!! Brand new jets tht ANY OTHER AIRLINE WOULD KILL TO USE then you deserve to fail and anyone 'negotiating' with such idiots should treat them with total contempt.
I woul not be capable of Nathan Safe's oh-so-measured approach. He should be a shoe in for the next Papal commission!
This disussion of 2c pay differences between pilot groups drives me up the wall. Especially when it would NOT be an issue if te airline was actually 'managed'. They have managed a market monopoliser into forcing VR on its staff for christs sake! I cannot believe that is possible - in a space of 10 years, let alone have people say 'its all about the staff needing to change'.
Give me strength!
Nunc est bibendum
OK, the rumour alluded to last night. First though, the qualifier. I don't know the source very well and it's a bit of a circumstantial case. It's also a bit third hand.
Jetstar recently changed their promotional criteria to 'merit based' rather than seniority based and sent a notice to crew that they'll be accepting DECs. With the RIN on the 767, there are some thoughts bubbling that QF 767 crew may get an offer to go and fly the JQ 787s on JQ terms and conditions. Timing depends on the number of VRs that are accepted, 767 drawdown, etc.
Like I said, don't know the source and it's not from inside Qantas. Personally I put this up there with the 777 rumours but time will tell.
Jetstar recently changed their promotional criteria to 'merit based' rather than seniority based and sent a notice to crew that they'll be accepting DECs. With the RIN on the 767, there are some thoughts bubbling that QF 767 crew may get an offer to go and fly the JQ 787s on JQ terms and conditions. Timing depends on the number of VRs that are accepted, 767 drawdown, etc.
Like I said, don't know the source and it's not from inside Qantas. Personally I put this up there with the 777 rumours but time will tell.
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For those living in the dark ages of omnipotence, I offer this piece of information.
For the end of financial year last year I was privy to one financial summary that showed a senior S/O that has never upgraded, (for vocal reasons of lifestyle) that has systematically reduced their roster to 25% of a line and grossed over 130k for that period.
A total of 4 days a month (read an LA return) work. Yes, that is 48 working days a year (not including EP's, sim etc) for $130,000 a year. (And NOT taking any leave)
Whilst I have no idea how integral wages are to profitability, there is not one person who could stand straight faced and say "yeah, that's fair".
This purely at face value can not be sustained long term from a simple economic viewpoint, and until this behaviour is modified it's a long draw of the bow pointing fingers saying managers have their nose in the trough and are pissing money against the wall. It may well be true, but it's embarrassing to think a group that has this behaviour expects to be taken seriously.
No offence to those doing the right thing, this post is not stereotyping, just pointing out a fact.
For the end of financial year last year I was privy to one financial summary that showed a senior S/O that has never upgraded, (for vocal reasons of lifestyle) that has systematically reduced their roster to 25% of a line and grossed over 130k for that period.
A total of 4 days a month (read an LA return) work. Yes, that is 48 working days a year (not including EP's, sim etc) for $130,000 a year. (And NOT taking any leave)
Whilst I have no idea how integral wages are to profitability, there is not one person who could stand straight faced and say "yeah, that's fair".
This purely at face value can not be sustained long term from a simple economic viewpoint, and until this behaviour is modified it's a long draw of the bow pointing fingers saying managers have their nose in the trough and are pissing money against the wall. It may well be true, but it's embarrassing to think a group that has this behaviour expects to be taken seriously.
No offence to those doing the right thing, this post is not stereotyping, just pointing out a fact.
Well I wish I could manage that... I suspect it's an exaggeration - I don't think flex lines have got that low.
Don't forget he still has to maintain currency and study etc and......
THE BLOODY COMPANY CAUSED THE PROBLEM BY REDUCING THE FLYING!!!
That is a symptom of very poor management, nothing to do with someone thinking 'hmmmmm I wonder if I can make this lunacy work for me for once?'
Don't forget he still has to maintain currency and study etc and......
THE BLOODY COMPANY CAUSED THE PROBLEM BY REDUCING THE FLYING!!!
That is a symptom of very poor management, nothing to do with someone thinking 'hmmmmm I wonder if I can make this lunacy work for me for once?'