300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???
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I wish you were right V-jet, I really do. But actually, my post is based on fact, and not an exaggeration. That's the really sad part. But believe what you will, it matters not to me!
Oh, just to provide clarity the reduction in flying was at the crew members request, not due to a reduction in hours.
Oh, just to provide clarity the reduction in flying was at the crew members request, not due to a reduction in hours.
Last edited by SteaminDivet; 19th May 2014 at 23:53. Reason: Clarity!
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Qantas is the safest airline there is. Many would prefer Qantas for long haul, just because of this reputation. Such a reputation isn't built overnight and to keep the tops on their toes, maybe salaries might be a bit higher than usual.
Qantas is no safer, and no less safe, than nearly every other airline in the developed world. Airlines in the developed world are all about as safe as each other.
The well deserved "safest airline in the world" reputation that Qantas forged over three-quarters of a century of operation is no longer a relevant point of difference as most competitor carriers just don't crash anymore.
I doubt many passengers would accept that QF salary costs should be higher beacause they are 'safer'.
For most travellers these days, its all about price, with safe travel being a well-founded assumption.
PG
SteaminD...
You may have to fine tune your numbers there a bit. Without distracting from your entirely valid point, one LA return is probably closer to 40% of a line, no? (Excuse my ignorance, but would five trips in two months not be typical?)
Also, the guy in question has every right to bid lifestyle. What else is he going to do? The company has amply demonstrated that any career aspirations are a pipe dream.
All of that said...I did ask a 380 S/O what he made in 2013. He showed me his end of year number...it was eye popping. It was heavy on overtime, and probably 30% fatter than his junior peers. Still...slightly more than twice a Dash -8 captain.
I am not going to suggest for a second that these guys should not grab all they can with both hands. They have been amply instructed in this by the CEO, managers and the board. If we had adult leadership and a sober discussion I am sure all of the foregoing would change...but not under the current group of looters.
You may have to fine tune your numbers there a bit. Without distracting from your entirely valid point, one LA return is probably closer to 40% of a line, no? (Excuse my ignorance, but would five trips in two months not be typical?)
Also, the guy in question has every right to bid lifestyle. What else is he going to do? The company has amply demonstrated that any career aspirations are a pipe dream.
All of that said...I did ask a 380 S/O what he made in 2013. He showed me his end of year number...it was eye popping. It was heavy on overtime, and probably 30% fatter than his junior peers. Still...slightly more than twice a Dash -8 captain.
I am not going to suggest for a second that these guys should not grab all they can with both hands. They have been amply instructed in this by the CEO, managers and the board. If we had adult leadership and a sober discussion I am sure all of the foregoing would change...but not under the current group of looters.
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One BNE-LAX trip a month? That's two and a half trips a bid period? On a 165 divisor?
In addition, the S/O has had nearly 15 years to take an upgrade.
It's fine to go for lifestyle, power to them.
But for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, unfortunately it appears to be coming now'ish.
I feel sorry for all the pilots on what's happening at the moment, it's all just plain terrible.
I edited my previous post for clarity to say that the reduction in hours was at the crew members request, not due to a reduction in flying.
In addition, the S/O has had nearly 15 years to take an upgrade.
It's fine to go for lifestyle, power to them.
But for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, unfortunately it appears to be coming now'ish.
I feel sorry for all the pilots on what's happening at the moment, it's all just plain terrible.
I edited my previous post for clarity to say that the reduction in hours was at the crew members request, not due to a reduction in flying.
I edited my previous post for clarity to say that the reduction in hours was at the crew members request, not due to a reduction in flying.
Flex Lines are ONLY available BECAUSE THERE IS REDUCED FLYING THROUGH LUNATIC MANAGEMENT!
Flex Lines are nothing more than a tool to provide an 'excuse' if you will for management screwups.
It also nicely allows anomalies such as the one you point out to be bandied about in the press and elsewhere. It is NOT pilots fault that they signed on to 850+ hours a year and the forward 'planning' (although I'm not sure if I can use that term and Qantas in the same post) was so screwed up that the only way to divide the flying is by doing exactly that.
You are totally missing the point and blaming the messenger.
Joyce and Clifford would love your argument.
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Sorry V-Jet, you seem to be taking this personally, one can also reduce their hours citing a variety of reasons, especially if they are female.
It is not misleading, your just on the defence because you think I'm QF pilot bashing.
You are just jumping at assumptions. Some of those being 'male' and 'agenda' And I am sick of defending my factual statement at your attempts to make me out to be misleading.
Like I said, it matters not to me, I was just trying to join the debate with some experiences I had.
I will leave you to believe what you want. But I am right, and I'm not misleading. I have no care to mislead on this forum.
SteamingDivet 'out' to let people believe what they will!
It is not misleading, your just on the defence because you think I'm QF pilot bashing.
You are just jumping at assumptions. Some of those being 'male' and 'agenda' And I am sick of defending my factual statement at your attempts to make me out to be misleading.
Like I said, it matters not to me, I was just trying to join the debate with some experiences I had.
I will leave you to believe what you want. But I am right, and I'm not misleading. I have no care to mislead on this forum.
SteamingDivet 'out' to let people believe what they will!
Flex lines were introduced as a way to assist with 'reduced flying hours'.
If you hire pilots to fly aircraft and then decide to park them BY THE DOZEN around the world either to look pretty on tarmacs (the new ones) or cut them up (at VCV) then you are going to have too many pilots.
'Flex Lines' were the first step on the ladder to VR and (I have no doubt) CR.
Look at it another way.
If Qantas was expanding (i.e. being run properly) the way EK, ANZ, CK etc etc are and announcing near record profits with pilots and airframes flying flat out (as they mostly have been since, gee when was it? - Thats right, when Dixon arrived!) what do you think the response might be if Pilots requested to only fly one trip a month? I don't think I would be going all that far out on a limb in saying the response would be along the lines of 'Get Stuffed! Oh, and BTW, you are leaving on a BKK-LHR at 1400 this afternoon!'
If you hire pilots to fly aircraft and then decide to park them BY THE DOZEN around the world either to look pretty on tarmacs (the new ones) or cut them up (at VCV) then you are going to have too many pilots.
'Flex Lines' were the first step on the ladder to VR and (I have no doubt) CR.
Look at it another way.
If Qantas was expanding (i.e. being run properly) the way EK, ANZ, CK etc etc are and announcing near record profits with pilots and airframes flying flat out (as they mostly have been since, gee when was it? - Thats right, when Dixon arrived!) what do you think the response might be if Pilots requested to only fly one trip a month? I don't think I would be going all that far out on a limb in saying the response would be along the lines of 'Get Stuffed! Oh, and BTW, you are leaving on a BKK-LHR at 1400 this afternoon!'
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Rather than negotiate, management chose to have FWA impose a determination
If I ran a business that was really, truly hurting and looked like collapsing the first thing I would do is sit down with my employees and say we need to strike a more affordable deal.
That would likely involve pay cuts and productivity increases.
If it really IS that dire, why hasn't there been any attempt to negotiate reforms with ALL key employee groups?
A longer term agenda at play me thinks...
OK, the rumour alluded to last night. First though, the qualifier. I don't know the source very well and it's a bit of a circumstantial case. It's also a bit third hand.
Jetstar recently changed their promotional criteria to 'merit based' rather than seniority based and sent a notice to crew that they'll be accepting DECs. With the RIN on the 767, there are some thoughts bubbling that QF 767 crew may get an offer to go and fly the JQ 787s on JQ terms and conditions. Timing depends on the number of VRs that are accepted, 767 drawdown, etc.
Like I said, don't know the source and it's not from inside Qantas. Personally I put this up there with the 777 rumours but time will tell.
Jetstar recently changed their promotional criteria to 'merit based' rather than seniority based and sent a notice to crew that they'll be accepting DECs. With the RIN on the 767, there are some thoughts bubbling that QF 767 crew may get an offer to go and fly the JQ 787s on JQ terms and conditions. Timing depends on the number of VRs that are accepted, 767 drawdown, etc.
Like I said, don't know the source and it's not from inside Qantas. Personally I put this up there with the 777 rumours but time will tell.
The FSO you are alluding to read that way due to there being a common OM suite across the entire business. Local workplace agreements overrule.
Yes seniority will be a major consideration, the other is suitability by appropriations committee. If you're not passing your sims, you won't get the upgrade.
However a recent court case involving a disgruntled FO who was passing sims at minimum standard and overlooked, ruled that he should be given the opportunity to undertake command training.
As for QF 767 pilots flying JQ 787s. Entirely possible. But they won't be based in Australia on the Australian EBA. The MOU numbers are almost at FO ranks so they'll be junior commands outside the major centres if they are offered. The existing MOU guys will have to QFR soon or go back to the sinking ship. Ones gone to CS. Two have QFR. How many will follow?
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"there are some thoughts bubbling that QF 767 crew may get an offer to go and fly the 787s"
Ive trimmed the statement to fit the rumour thats been around for about a month.
Depends what entity is tasked with flying the 787?
JQ, QF or another entity.
Don't forget the company goal in a former QF mainline EBA was establish a Asian base with QF branded aircraft.
MC
Ive trimmed the statement to fit the rumour thats been around for about a month.
Depends what entity is tasked with flying the 787?
JQ, QF or another entity.
Don't forget the company goal in a former QF mainline EBA was establish a Asian base with QF branded aircraft.
MC
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SteaminDivet
Not commenting on pay costs and life style but I think someone has lead you astray, a BNE-LAX is only worth 42:10 including overtime, doing twelve a year at the the hourly rate for a 12+ year SO is no where near $130k. It is also currently a 6 day trip not a 4 day trip.
To work that little and get that pay, you would have to be close to an A330 captains rate.
Not commenting on pay costs and life style but I think someone has lead you astray, a BNE-LAX is only worth 42:10 including overtime, doing twelve a year at the the hourly rate for a 12+ year SO is no where near $130k. It is also currently a 6 day trip not a 4 day trip.
To work that little and get that pay, you would have to be close to an A330 captains rate.
Last edited by Offchocks; 20th May 2014 at 07:31.
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Have a look back at history to get an idea of where this may be going . Chapter 11 or a few other airlines that where in a similar state as Qantas . Think Philippine airlines is a good example as any . Govt run and losing money , business man buys it for peanuts and tells the govt its broke , he is allowed to get rid of staff at no cost . 1 day later resigns contracts with companies to provide all services at %15 (?) of original costs , orders new aircraft and has a profitable airline worth billions .
Won't be same for Qantas as laws and courts are different but its got a similar feel to it .
Won't be same for Qantas as laws and courts are different but its got a similar feel to it .
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FYSTI #146
V-Jet #147
Thankyou.
The Trolls and Stupid people were starting to annoy me.
What is a Stupid person? One who is not prepared to GRADE ... as it were.
Of course we all know that ideology and group think are the way to make a decision ...... after all that is what the smartest guys in the room seem to think.
And lest he feels left out ... Sunfish .. thankyou as well. Your postitive contributions have been in the top percentile of value here.
N
And again for the really really stupid people ....
QF staff wages and conditions have ZERO to do with any perceived ..er .. problems......
sigh.
V-Jet #147
Thankyou.
The Trolls and Stupid people were starting to annoy me.
What is a Stupid person? One who is not prepared to GRADE ... as it were.
Of course we all know that ideology and group think are the way to make a decision ...... after all that is what the smartest guys in the room seem to think.
And lest he feels left out ... Sunfish .. thankyou as well. Your postitive contributions have been in the top percentile of value here.
N
And again for the really really stupid people ....
QF staff wages and conditions have ZERO to do with any perceived ..er .. problems......
sigh.
Would it be fair to say that QF employees get paid about 35% more then their stupid rivals…….? That equates to nearly 1 Billion dollars a year.
I am (and everyone else at QF who has half a brain) SICK OF REPEATING MYSELF!!! The wages are NOT the problem. Guys from my course are with airlines elsewhere and it is exactly that - swings and bloody roundabouts...
I had an insulting reply for you there ballsdeep, but I am tired of this discussion.
Profits= revenue - costs.
The endless focus on staff costs while neglecting revenue ends one way only. The path to airline bankruptcy is a well-trodden one, yet our idiots insist on hiking it.
Profits= revenue - costs.
The endless focus on staff costs while neglecting revenue ends one way only. The path to airline bankruptcy is a well-trodden one, yet our idiots insist on hiking it.
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QF longhaul pilots are likely overpaid to the tune of around $100K per year each , really quite a substantial saving that could be made , but it won't be so the business will either go bankrupt or be shut down at an ever increasing rate.
Second Officers earning between $170K to 220K, that is more than a BA Captain (which you achieve at 15 to 20 years) these days
Comparisons with US carriers are meaningless, yes their wages have come back over recent years , but they were merciless with redundancies after 9/11. And from 2002 through 2010 QF SOs would have been earning more than the average Capt Wage as most US Majors. Don't forget also most US major pilots lost if not all ,then a substantial portion of their retirement/pensions
Remember after Sept 11 , Gordon Bethune immediately fired 20% of Continental Staff (furloughed as they would say, we would say redundant), and then cut the wages by 20% of those who remained.
Wouldn't have happened at Qantas , the staff wouldn't accept it.
The former QF Chief Economist , states quite simply that he doesn't think QF International can be saved. He presents as a credible voice who has moved on since his QF days, and now among other things teaches MBAs at USyd/NSW
Second Officers earning between $170K to 220K, that is more than a BA Captain (which you achieve at 15 to 20 years) these days
Comparisons with US carriers are meaningless, yes their wages have come back over recent years , but they were merciless with redundancies after 9/11. And from 2002 through 2010 QF SOs would have been earning more than the average Capt Wage as most US Majors. Don't forget also most US major pilots lost if not all ,then a substantial portion of their retirement/pensions
Remember after Sept 11 , Gordon Bethune immediately fired 20% of Continental Staff (furloughed as they would say, we would say redundant), and then cut the wages by 20% of those who remained.
Wouldn't have happened at Qantas , the staff wouldn't accept it.
The former QF Chief Economist , states quite simply that he doesn't think QF International can be saved. He presents as a credible voice who has moved on since his QF days, and now among other things teaches MBAs at USyd/NSW
Ballsdeep...wow what a tosser and an IQ of an 3 year old...10 years time there will be no pilotless aircraft and guess what there will be twice the number of aircraft in the sky and many jobs for pilots albeit contract work but there will be jobs. This guy has the temerity to ridicule the situation, shows the mentality of his tiny mind. He is the dunderhead who will continue to undermine anyone that stands in his way. Obviously a relic on a bygone era when staff and management fight daily. Maybe he is related to the clowns running Qantas. The successful companies have ditched this and moved on to work with the staff and not against them. Don't give up Austral, he is just a stooge. By the way we can do their job but they can't do ours, simple, be patient.
Really?
... likely overpaid ...
But really, I know Cathay and QF pilots on the A330 fleets. The QF pilot is flying more and earning less than the equivalent Cathay pilot for the last year.
I'm prepared to concede that it's a case of swings and roundabouts, but it's definitely not all types/all pilots/all the time earning more at Qantas. I am surprised that some enjoy 'the koolaid' so much that they seem to derive pleasure from watching what is a distressing situation for all in the firing line.
And if any chance of a QF recovery hinges entirely on pilots going to new global lows in remuneration.... well.... we're all toast
