QANTAS - WHERE TO NOW?
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Squawk 7600
An appropriate 'handle' when communication fails. No problem, no offence taken, and no apology required. My post title was a take from the current QF add campaign. Don't know who 'Trevor' is - but good luck to him. I've been in this profession longer than I care to be reminded of. I love my profession, and it's been incredibly good to me - but I learnt very early in the piece that this business, as opposed to the profession, can be incredibly brutal at times. I deeply regret what I see as an appalling and completely avoidable decline in what was once a great airline and an industry leader. I have many friends and acquaintances at QF, and I hope the Board/Shareholders can somehow get the message that things have been going terribly wrong for quite some time. For what it's worth, I haven't written to A Joyce, but I have written to some Board members who I think have some scintilla of intelligence, and I have certainly called a spade a spade. Parasites drop off when the bloodflow shrivels, and occasionally the host survives.
An appropriate 'handle' when communication fails. No problem, no offence taken, and no apology required. My post title was a take from the current QF add campaign. Don't know who 'Trevor' is - but good luck to him. I've been in this profession longer than I care to be reminded of. I love my profession, and it's been incredibly good to me - but I learnt very early in the piece that this business, as opposed to the profession, can be incredibly brutal at times. I deeply regret what I see as an appalling and completely avoidable decline in what was once a great airline and an industry leader. I have many friends and acquaintances at QF, and I hope the Board/Shareholders can somehow get the message that things have been going terribly wrong for quite some time. For what it's worth, I haven't written to A Joyce, but I have written to some Board members who I think have some scintilla of intelligence, and I have certainly called a spade a spade. Parasites drop off when the bloodflow shrivels, and occasionally the host survives.
Last edited by Olive61; 13th Oct 2012 at 13:51. Reason: dishleksia
Squawk 7600
Yes you did confuse poor Olive's post with mine. I am also happy to address your post.
Firstly, your post reminds me of when I first posted my experience. I instantly had some git come on and accuse me of being a staff traveller with a sense of entitlement. In fact, as I said, I was a fully paid J classer with a sense of entitlement.
But to your point - you have accused me of embellishing my story by using the "bread and water" analogy. Hear me - I was offered bread and water. Please don't suggest that because there was tea, coffee or juice available that everything was therefore ok. I didn't want tea, coffee or juice. At 0630 I wanted breakfast, I was hungry, and no amount of tea, coffee or juice makes the lack of a meal being available to a business class passenger acceptable.
As to the issue of posting this issue on PPRUNE. To me this website serves the same purpose as a smoky bar with a bunch of beers. It allows pilots and others who don' know each other to have a chat just like they would if they met up in a bar. We can discuss what's happening in our industry, the goods and the bads, job opportunities, who's gone where etc etc. Its not really a forum for getting Joyce or anyone else to listen to me -we know that doesn't work.
After my experience I sought out the airport manager in Brissy and told him of my experience. (makes me sound like an even bigger whinger, but I wanted feedback to get back to the ears closed management.) He was very upset at what he heard. he told me who to write to and I did. Guess what, the response was one of insincere regret and apology. But you know what - I bet the same sh!t will just keep happening.
Yes you did confuse poor Olive's post with mine. I am also happy to address your post.
Firstly, your post reminds me of when I first posted my experience. I instantly had some git come on and accuse me of being a staff traveller with a sense of entitlement. In fact, as I said, I was a fully paid J classer with a sense of entitlement.
But to your point - you have accused me of embellishing my story by using the "bread and water" analogy. Hear me - I was offered bread and water. Please don't suggest that because there was tea, coffee or juice available that everything was therefore ok. I didn't want tea, coffee or juice. At 0630 I wanted breakfast, I was hungry, and no amount of tea, coffee or juice makes the lack of a meal being available to a business class passenger acceptable.
As to the issue of posting this issue on PPRUNE. To me this website serves the same purpose as a smoky bar with a bunch of beers. It allows pilots and others who don' know each other to have a chat just like they would if they met up in a bar. We can discuss what's happening in our industry, the goods and the bads, job opportunities, who's gone where etc etc. Its not really a forum for getting Joyce or anyone else to listen to me -we know that doesn't work.
After my experience I sought out the airport manager in Brissy and told him of my experience. (makes me sound like an even bigger whinger, but I wanted feedback to get back to the ears closed management.) He was very upset at what he heard. he told me who to write to and I did. Guess what, the response was one of insincere regret and apology. But you know what - I bet the same sh!t will just keep happening.
Last edited by Trevor the lover; 13th Oct 2012 at 22:13.
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I had an interesting experience at a party last night, for the first time I met people who were returning to fly Qantas, rather than vowing to never fly Qantas again. Two couples stated that Qantas was now their preferred carrier after leaving Qantas for other carriers.
For one couple the final straw was being on a Emirates London Dubai flight in business class, an Emirati who appeared to be from the upper ruling class, ranted and raved because these people where sitting in the seats he wanted. He made verbal threats to these passengers and made verbal threats about the safety of the flight. He stated that everyone was going to die. The cabin crews reaction, NIL, they did absolutely nothing.
The other couple, they were basically sick of pretty young flight attendants who basically believe service is beneath them.
I spoken to many other people who have flown Emirates, and find Qantas better. Their complaints about Emirates being poor movie selections, tray tables not being collected prior to landing (no turbulence stopping tray collection), and especially a comment from women travelling alone, that they are treated poorly.
From my own travels, I find Qantas cabin crew very good, the service is excellent. The crew are let down by management though with respect to catering supplies. Paying for business or first class should ensure that you can get your choice of meal, however an airline cannot carry enough food that every business/first pax can get anything they want. I have been to quite a few high class restaurants where a meal choice I wanted wasn't avialable either.
One thing stands out about Qantas Cabin Crew, if something goes wrong, if there is a medical emergency, a disruptive passenger, an inflight emergency, etc you can guarantee that they have the training to handle the problem. And more so, the will to ensure that any problems will be handled safely and efficiently and not be ignored.
There is a tiny glimmer though that things are improving at Qantas, if some of the rumours around at the moment actually happen, it bodes well for Qantas. The new 737's are great aircraft, the IFE is fantastic, far better than watching the news and a david attenborough doco on a small screen half obscured by someones head. The staff are sick of talk and want to see some positive action occuring. New fitout of the A330 and better timings into Asia also positive news. Once staff can see that management are actually backing and investing in the product instead of trying to destroy it, maybe Qantas can return to where it once was.
For one couple the final straw was being on a Emirates London Dubai flight in business class, an Emirati who appeared to be from the upper ruling class, ranted and raved because these people where sitting in the seats he wanted. He made verbal threats to these passengers and made verbal threats about the safety of the flight. He stated that everyone was going to die. The cabin crews reaction, NIL, they did absolutely nothing.
The other couple, they were basically sick of pretty young flight attendants who basically believe service is beneath them.
I spoken to many other people who have flown Emirates, and find Qantas better. Their complaints about Emirates being poor movie selections, tray tables not being collected prior to landing (no turbulence stopping tray collection), and especially a comment from women travelling alone, that they are treated poorly.
From my own travels, I find Qantas cabin crew very good, the service is excellent. The crew are let down by management though with respect to catering supplies. Paying for business or first class should ensure that you can get your choice of meal, however an airline cannot carry enough food that every business/first pax can get anything they want. I have been to quite a few high class restaurants where a meal choice I wanted wasn't avialable either.
One thing stands out about Qantas Cabin Crew, if something goes wrong, if there is a medical emergency, a disruptive passenger, an inflight emergency, etc you can guarantee that they have the training to handle the problem. And more so, the will to ensure that any problems will be handled safely and efficiently and not be ignored.
There is a tiny glimmer though that things are improving at Qantas, if some of the rumours around at the moment actually happen, it bodes well for Qantas. The new 737's are great aircraft, the IFE is fantastic, far better than watching the news and a david attenborough doco on a small screen half obscured by someones head. The staff are sick of talk and want to see some positive action occuring. New fitout of the A330 and better timings into Asia also positive news. Once staff can see that management are actually backing and investing in the product instead of trying to destroy it, maybe Qantas can return to where it once was.
Last edited by MrWooby; 14th Oct 2012 at 02:29.
Once staff can see that management are actually backing and investing in the product instead of trying to destroy it, maybe Qantas can return to where it once was.
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....maybe Qantas can return to where it once was.
I gave up waiting and left a few years back-post the Dixon "reign of terror" years.
It was a great airline.......lets hope the flicker of hope turns into better times ahead
Last edited by stubby jumbo; 14th Oct 2012 at 09:41.
@ MrWooby
That sounds pretty bad even from a third hand representation of what really happened.
Too bad that the evil EK service is about to be unwielded upon an unsuspecting QF FF punter!
By the way is English your second language?
Having been an operating crew with a medical emergency on board on EK, l can attest that the crew are well trained and did well. You would be surprised that some of the "pretty young flight attendants" your friends complain of may have other very impressive qualifications.
halas
Too bad that the evil EK service is about to be unwielded upon an unsuspecting QF FF punter!
By the way is English your second language?
Having been an operating crew with a medical emergency on board on EK, l can attest that the crew are well trained and did well. You would be surprised that some of the "pretty young flight attendants" your friends complain of may have other very impressive qualifications.
halas
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Halas, english is my first language. You would be amazed how many times you can spell check, and edit your post, only to find that on re-reading your post a day later there are glaring grammatical errors. When I saw the error I was unable to edit it.
The incident in question actually sounded much worse than I posted, and the couple in question are seasoned international travellers.
I do agree that many cabin crew do have impressive qualifications, however I am only posting what I have heard from quite a few sources now, including my wife who has flown emirates quite a few times.
The incident in question actually sounded much worse than I posted, and the couple in question are seasoned international travellers.
I do agree that many cabin crew do have impressive qualifications, however I am only posting what I have heard from quite a few sources now, including my wife who has flown emirates quite a few times.
Last edited by MrWooby; 14th Oct 2012 at 20:25.
No one I know will willingly fly Qantas. Last complaint I heard was about the probability of paying full Qantas economy and then getting shafted by being placed on a Jetstar flight.
I fly VB locally and my next European trip will be with Singapore airlines and with a day or Two stopover in Singapore.
My son had a dream trip with them Two years ago - A 380 to Zurich.
I fly VB locally and my next European trip will be with Singapore airlines and with a day or Two stopover in Singapore.
My son had a dream trip with them Two years ago - A 380 to Zurich.
Last edited by Sunfish; 14th Oct 2012 at 23:28.
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Domestic I go with whoever my employer utilises at the time or whoever has the best deal. VB are now fully competetive with QF so barring a major difference (eg prop v jet) the time spent in the air is pretty minor. Not so long ago it was always a stipulation to fly QF.
Internationally I book my schedule around the 380 because it is just a better experience. QF usually gets me so I can upgrade on points but I've started using Singapore and Emirates more recently because they are just happier, or perhaps that should be less miserable.
If you missed the meaning of that I choose to pay for a business class ticket with carriers other than Qantas where I would only have to pay for an economy flight and then upgrade it.
That's pretty telling as a judgement of what is delivered.
Internationally I book my schedule around the 380 because it is just a better experience. QF usually gets me so I can upgrade on points but I've started using Singapore and Emirates more recently because they are just happier, or perhaps that should be less miserable.
If you missed the meaning of that I choose to pay for a business class ticket with carriers other than Qantas where I would only have to pay for an economy flight and then upgrade it.
That's pretty telling as a judgement of what is delivered.
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'No one I know will willingly fly Qantas'
Pretty big statement Sunfish..where are the hundreds of thousands of QF pax coming from. Maybe you just don't have too many friends.
I have no objection to rational anti QF comments..everyone is entitled.....but nonsense remarks..No!
Pretty big statement Sunfish..where are the hundreds of thousands of QF pax coming from. Maybe you just don't have too many friends.
I have no objection to rational anti QF comments..everyone is entitled.....but nonsense remarks..No!
I'm a so called 'entitled staff traveller' with a pretty decent onload/upgrade priority and it would seem to me that plenty of full fare paying passengers DO want to travel Qantas, especially the 380 services and even the so called 'loss making' FRA route.
The amount of trouble I've had in the last few years trying to get a seat, almost makes it not worth the effort after potentially be stuck away from home in a foreign city with no accomodation or flights and a closed airport...
I did say almost.
But having said all of that, every J class experience I've had, the cabin crew have always been excellent, attentive and great all round. Never had a bad or witnessed a bad customer service event.
The amount of trouble I've had in the last few years trying to get a seat, almost makes it not worth the effort after potentially be stuck away from home in a foreign city with no accomodation or flights and a closed airport...
I did say almost.
But having said all of that, every J class experience I've had, the cabin crew have always been excellent, attentive and great all round. Never had a bad or witnessed a bad customer service event.
Certain points in this discussion are valid and have been raised regularly, clearly and consistently. In most instances, they have been raised by Qf staff on this forum and thread. The Qf staff are Qf harshest critics....if something is not up to scratch they are usually exposed. As a Qf commuter with reasonable upgrade priority, I have never seen unprofessional, lazy or inept cabin crew conduct. There are better cabin crew like there are better pilots but the general standard of cabin crew is very good from what I have seen. Perhaps there should be a flight deck channel in the IFE, where pax can generate similar libel over perceived shortcomings? Medical procedures, criminal trials, restaurant kitchens, space missions are all televised these days. Goodness knows what unprofessional, lazy or inept conduct one could extrapolate from a brief flick of the channel. 
In short I'm with 600ft and qfcabin....easy on
In short I'm with 600ft and qfcabin....easy on
QFcabin:
...And there is the problem QFcabin, you just don''t get it.
Let me tell you from whence that comment comes....
It comes from the members of a city club...or Two.
It also comes from a sporting club lunch table I frequent at least twice a week, being a retired old fart. The other old farts include Six Directors, or former Directors, of rather notable businesses that are/were sufficiently large to allow said lunch partners to buy their choice of yachts and spend their Victorian winters in Europe, or on long cruises, or touring in America each year.
Then there are Three or Four or Two old blokes who don't even travel by commercial airlines at all - the Gulfstream crowd. I dislike pissing competitions so I won't continue except to ask that who do you think invited their friends to watch Black Caviare run at Ascot?.
Sufficient to say, old mate, that it is very unwise to ignore or discount criticism. We spend a considerable part of our time determining our next international recreation destination. We can afford to go anywhere and everywhere any time we want to, and if Qantas doesn't want our business, as seems to be the case, then so be it. More importantly, we still have influence in business and elsewhere and our views are occasionally asked for.
To put it another way, if you are basing your business model on anxious mothers and their reward cards and frequent flyer points, or bogans flying Jetstar, and other price sensitive categories, or corporate drones with expense accounts, then good luck to you. Call us the carriage trade if you like.
My own practice as a CEO was to offer my staff International business travel on business class with a strict time horizon, or to offer them economy and have a free week of holidays at their destination. You would be surprised how popular option Two was - and Qantas with all their frequent flyer points was never part of the equation - they are valueless to a business traveller.
As I said: nobody I know will willingly fly Qantas. We don't trust you any more. Your staff don't trust you either. We will not let our families or those nearest and dearest to fly with you. We don't believe you are any different in the safety stakes from any other airline any more. That leaves the decision up to a question of price and convenience - and you lose.
To put it another way Qantas: you presume far too much. This is not a good idea.
'No one I know will willingly fly Qantas'
Pretty big statement Sunfish..where are the hundreds of thousands of QF pax coming from. Maybe you just don't have too many friends.
I have no objection to rational anti QF comments..everyone is entitled.....but nonsense remarks..No!
Pretty big statement Sunfish..where are the hundreds of thousands of QF pax coming from. Maybe you just don't have too many friends.
I have no objection to rational anti QF comments..everyone is entitled.....but nonsense remarks..No!
Let me tell you from whence that comment comes....
It comes from the members of a city club...or Two.
It also comes from a sporting club lunch table I frequent at least twice a week, being a retired old fart. The other old farts include Six Directors, or former Directors, of rather notable businesses that are/were sufficiently large to allow said lunch partners to buy their choice of yachts and spend their Victorian winters in Europe, or on long cruises, or touring in America each year.
Then there are Three or Four or Two old blokes who don't even travel by commercial airlines at all - the Gulfstream crowd. I dislike pissing competitions so I won't continue except to ask that who do you think invited their friends to watch Black Caviare run at Ascot?.
Sufficient to say, old mate, that it is very unwise to ignore or discount criticism. We spend a considerable part of our time determining our next international recreation destination. We can afford to go anywhere and everywhere any time we want to, and if Qantas doesn't want our business, as seems to be the case, then so be it. More importantly, we still have influence in business and elsewhere and our views are occasionally asked for.
To put it another way, if you are basing your business model on anxious mothers and their reward cards and frequent flyer points, or bogans flying Jetstar, and other price sensitive categories, or corporate drones with expense accounts, then good luck to you. Call us the carriage trade if you like.
My own practice as a CEO was to offer my staff International business travel on business class with a strict time horizon, or to offer them economy and have a free week of holidays at their destination. You would be surprised how popular option Two was - and Qantas with all their frequent flyer points was never part of the equation - they are valueless to a business traveller.
As I said: nobody I know will willingly fly Qantas. We don't trust you any more. Your staff don't trust you either. We will not let our families or those nearest and dearest to fly with you. We don't believe you are any different in the safety stakes from any other airline any more. That leaves the decision up to a question of price and convenience - and you lose.
To put it another way Qantas: you presume far too much. This is not a good idea.
Last edited by Sunfish; 15th Oct 2012 at 12:21.
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Sunfish,
We might as well just close down then.
You are wrong re the safety though, there are many good airlines but there are some [big ones] which are not as safe as us.
We might as well just close down then.
You are wrong re the safety though, there are many good airlines but there are some [big ones] which are not as safe as us.
short flights long nights
Im not sure I agree with that statement, TankEngine.
Sunfish,
I don't move in your circles so I won't begin to argue most of your points, however, the statement about safety is a little naieve in my opinion. It would be a magical world if all airlines were similarly safe, just as it would if all CEO's were similarly competent or all companies were similarly profitable. I have flown for two flag carriers, an LCC, an Asian domestic airline, several piston charter operators, and now a private outfit and in my opinion safety varies greatly from operator to operator depending primarily on the quality and quantity of training provided . Local culture plays a big role in the quality of training and Australians are lucky in that their culture of calling it like it is pushes them toward above average safety cultures when it comes to airline ops.
The gap is closing slowly but if you randomly audited 10 airlines that fly in and out of Australia I would be surprised if QF didn't come out of the wash in the top two or three.
To put it another way,and to quote someone I think is often worth listening to,
" you presume far too much, that is not a good idea" .
I don't move in your circles so I won't begin to argue most of your points, however, the statement about safety is a little naieve in my opinion. It would be a magical world if all airlines were similarly safe, just as it would if all CEO's were similarly competent or all companies were similarly profitable. I have flown for two flag carriers, an LCC, an Asian domestic airline, several piston charter operators, and now a private outfit and in my opinion safety varies greatly from operator to operator depending primarily on the quality and quantity of training provided . Local culture plays a big role in the quality of training and Australians are lucky in that their culture of calling it like it is pushes them toward above average safety cultures when it comes to airline ops.
The gap is closing slowly but if you randomly audited 10 airlines that fly in and out of Australia I would be surprised if QF didn't come out of the wash in the top two or three.
To put it another way,and to quote someone I think is often worth listening to,
" you presume far too much, that is not a good idea" .
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There are some very good points from both Sunfish and Framer with which I agree.
Both safety and trust are important points of discussion.
The traveling public "presume" safety has been provided by the airline in complying with the regulators rules and then look for value in the fares advertised when planning to fly. They don't consider safety to be an issue unless it's highlighted in the media about defects reported.
Those who work in the industry know about the ongoing battle with airlines cost cutting and their cosy relations with the regulator undermine how safety is managed properly. The travelling public don't know about these things as they go about their own lives
So there is an element of blind trust until something goes wrong. That trust is the REAL issue.
Sunfish is right to say the staff don't trust Qantas management whose record of achievement is nothing of which they can be proud.
While Sunfish,his family and his friends would not fly Qantas, there are plenty of the travelling public that do, and will continue to fly if the price is right.
Being the national carrier doesn't hurt and a good many choose Qantas purely because of that, but they trust the airline will get them there safely and on time. Any added frills like points or upgrades are a bonus in their eyes
I fly with other airlines and Qantas if I have to for convenience, and accordingly, "measure the risk" as I don't trust them, period.
Both safety and trust are important points of discussion.
The traveling public "presume" safety has been provided by the airline in complying with the regulators rules and then look for value in the fares advertised when planning to fly. They don't consider safety to be an issue unless it's highlighted in the media about defects reported.
Those who work in the industry know about the ongoing battle with airlines cost cutting and their cosy relations with the regulator undermine how safety is managed properly. The travelling public don't know about these things as they go about their own lives
So there is an element of blind trust until something goes wrong. That trust is the REAL issue.
Sunfish is right to say the staff don't trust Qantas management whose record of achievement is nothing of which they can be proud.
While Sunfish,his family and his friends would not fly Qantas, there are plenty of the travelling public that do, and will continue to fly if the price is right.
Being the national carrier doesn't hurt and a good many choose Qantas purely because of that, but they trust the airline will get them there safely and on time. Any added frills like points or upgrades are a bonus in their eyes
I fly with other airlines and Qantas if I have to for convenience, and accordingly, "measure the risk" as I don't trust them, period.
Hanoi, probably not. I am in a bad mood at present since a good friend has just been given a cancer death sentence and all the money in the world can't fix it.
I won't get into apissing competition with the likes of you or anyone else. I don't need to.
As for Qantas, they need to take their critics more seriously and not rely on Government lobbying to keep saving their bacon. Customers such as me, no longer TRUST Qantas to deliver on anything. That is the core of their marketing problem. When you combine that with the criticisms of CASA, ATSB and ASA, not to mention the antics of the airport corporations, then it becomes obvious that the Minister is heading for a world of hurt.
As I said, Three smoking holes.....
I won't get into apissing competition with the likes of you or anyone else. I don't need to.
As for Qantas, they need to take their critics more seriously and not rely on Government lobbying to keep saving their bacon. Customers such as me, no longer TRUST Qantas to deliver on anything. That is the core of their marketing problem. When you combine that with the criticisms of CASA, ATSB and ASA, not to mention the antics of the airport corporations, then it becomes obvious that the Minister is heading for a world of hurt.
As I said, Three smoking holes.....
Last edited by Sunfish; 16th Oct 2012 at 08:38.
Damn Statistics....
Qantas-Virgin dispute over Italy rights goes to the heart of the new alliance partnerships | CAPA - Centre for Aviation
Qantas-Virgin dispute over Italy rights goes to the heart of the new alliance partnerships | CAPA - Centre for Aviation
The Australia-Italy market has grown by nearly 20% in the two years to the 2012 financial.
Qantas points out that it has flown the route since 1948, using its own aircraft until 2003 when it pulled out of Rome in the face of unsustainable losses against a backdrop of an “extremely difficult operating environment for international airlines”
While the number of passengers travelling on the route has grown over the past few years, Qantas says its market share has declined steadily to about 8% in the year ended Jun-2012, compared to about 14% in 2009. Over that time the number of passengers on the route has grown by about 19% and leisure travellers account for about 80% of the traffic.