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MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

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MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:07
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Rullings?

Is there a possibility that the FWA could rule a "Termination" with the ALAEA and the TWU, and only a "Suspension" with the AIPA?

Additionally, any ideas on what the outcome for Qantas would be if the FWA ruled for a Suspension?

Is there anyway the board / AJ would be in legal trouble for not disclosing the grounding to the shareholders or the ASX?
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:12
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Originally Posted by JetsBest
And then I woke up!
Correct.

Point 1> Unions don't run the airline, the owners of the airline have selected a board to do that
Point 2> The unions' concept of 'bargaining in good faith' = 'give us what we asked for'.
Point 3> The previous AGM demonstrated that the Board had 96% support of the owners.

You need to be honest with yourself. The idea that people like Steve Purvinis choose the pay and conditions you work under, and will inflict wounds on a company until they agree is incorrect. The idea that it's 'bargaining in good faith' for people like Steve Purvinis to propose something a little beyond what he's after and expect the airline to accept 90% of what he asked for is incorrect.

If you are upset that the company ended up taking action in return, you should address those concerns to those you asked to represent you.

Yes it's not nice for the the QF staff effected. I feel aweful for their families. It's just a horrible shame that you've allowed Union reps to put you in this circumstance through unrealistic expectations.


You can't keep milking a cow that is sick.

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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:14
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from Fair Work Australia - QANTAS is arguing that customer confidence cannot be rebuilt if FWA issues a suspension. It can only be granted if a termination of Industrial Action is granted.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:20
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from Fair Work Australia -- Unions appear to be arguing for themselves. Pilot's union is arguing that they shouldn't be involved in the lockout as they haven't taken the same action as the other unions.

Yes, this will take a long time. In the meantime, why not checkout some PPRuNe advertises on the bottom or top of this page or Alan Joyce on the Bolt Report: https://bitly.com/sO0d7e
Joyce interview is a few minutes in...
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:22
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PAF why is the QF cow sick?

'Management' was given a complete airline when it privatised. Aircraft/Infrastructure etc. The fleet was a very sensible mix of 747/767/737. They didn't have to build-up their enterprise from scratch - it was all there for them. No entrepreneurial skill involved just walk in and off we go.

And how have we faired?

Now it is a disjointed horrible mess.

That share price graph is a simple condemnation of that terrible management.

This anti-union rhetoric was very appropriate in say 1974 but the world is a very different place. As somebody said (Xenophon?) this is management militancy at its worst. And as the Shareholders' Association pointed out, amidst this corporate failure the Management managed to get themselves massive pay rises and something like $55 million in salaries in the last 3 years.

Just because these militants wear suits is that more palatable?

With all due respect I think your 1970's pre-conceptions are blinkering the logic of what is actually happening here. The very graph you posted being all the evidence needed to depict managerial questionability personified.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:27
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Originally Posted by Al E. Vator
PAF why is the cow sick?
Quite simple. One of the riskiest S&P500 companies is returning less that a risk free investment.

Some figures:

Return on Assets: 1.22%
Return on Equity: 4.14%
Return on Investment: 1.76%
Return on CBA NetSaver Account: 4.75%

Think about that...

What's really sad is that the unions taking industrial action at the end of every EBA has increased the risk and as a result made QF's return appear even worse to investors.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:28
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PAF it has never been the intention of the workers to shut down the company.......and the fact that you think this is solely a pay claim shows you have no idea what is actually going on. do some research and come back with a balanced argument
PAF was a troll in the last dispute, spouting ill-educated nonsense at every opportunity….funny how he's resurfaced now!!

TROLL
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:28
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from Fair Work Australia -- [subjective] Appears QANTAS isn't overly upset with pilots. Just the Engineers and TWU workers.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:30
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Joyce's Emotional Disconnect

Joyce has no emotional connection to Australia nor does he have any emotional connection to Qantas.
He is therefore the perfect scapegoat in all this.Leigh Clifford's scapegoat.
An Australian would have had seconds thoughts about pulling a stunt like this.
'89 is till vivid in most aviation memories.
This had been planned for at least two months with room nights being purchased in early September and CC managers despatched to LHR Singapore and LAX on Thursday.
Joyce has totally misread and misunderstood the Australian psyche and Australian history.He has done more damage to the Qantas Brand than any trade union could ever do.
This whole episode has been designed to use FWA to force the workforce into submission by denying them further PIA and force the Australian Government to amend the Qantas Sale Act
A ballsy but stupid bluff that will end his career in this country.
But the problem will remain with Qantas whilever Clifford is the Chairman.
This man is a smug dysfunctional elitist who makes Dixon look like a Choir boy.
When Joyce goes out the front door Clifford should follow
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:30
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King William III

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Excellent contribution to the debate. Thank you.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:35
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from Fair Work Australia -- [subjective] Appears QANTAS isn't overly upset with pilots. Just the Engineers and TWU workers.

#leigh_howard
Q:admits that only real action on foot by the pilots is the red tie #Qantas


leigh_howard
Because the agreement with TWU is 'close', that favours suspension. but the pilots are v far from agreement, that favours termination #Qantas



tool.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:38
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Originally Posted by c173
PAF apart from your FWA updates (if they aren't biased) you have had 0 contribution with you anti-unionist whinging

carry on
I've discussed the topic. Young King William III's contribution was purley ad hominem
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:39
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I'd like to hear from the regulator.

CASA - PLEASE OUTLINE YOUR ACTUAL CONCERNS RELATED TO AVIATION SAFETY PERTINENT TO THE CURRENT QANTAS DISPUTE? WHAT COMMUNICATION HAVE YOU HAD WITH QANTAS MANAGEMENT?

MC
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:39
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Apart from the obvious problems this represents not only for Qantas,it's employees and the travel industry in general but I think it also opens up a veritable pandoras box for industrial relations in Australia.

The real danger (if this is not bad enough) is that if this move to cease legal union industrial action by closing down the workplace is successful then it may very well create an industrial precedent.

If any Australian business is experiencing industrial action from a union or a number of unions representing it's workforce it may decide to take the 'QANTAS MANOEUVRE' and close down it's business to remove any union action or effect.

I wonder why QANTAS did not just ask for the FWA to intervene instead of taking the proverbial Bull in a china shop approach instead?

Memories of the domestic dispute are flooding back.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:40
  #495 (permalink)  
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If the unions want a 'Blietzkrieg' of their own this is what I would suggest...

Walk in to FWA and accept what is on offer by the company but only for 12 months. This shows that you are negotiating in good faith, but the companies problems don't go away. In the meantime the share price fails to excite and institutional investors call for change at next AGM.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:43
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Originally Posted by Lex Talionis
The real danger (if this is not bad enough) is that if this move to cease legal union industrial action by closing down the workplace is successful then it may very well create an industrial precedent.
I think the real danger is quite the opposite. Unions can protest, cost a company tens / hundreds of millions; if the company responds, Fair Work steps in and says 'Hey, hey hey, that's enough of that!'
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:44
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Originally Posted by Howard Hughes
In the meantime the share price fails to excite and institutional investors call for change at next AGM.
More likely that institutional investors will stick with a man who is trying to reduce costs...
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:48
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Perhaps AIPA could print some red T'shirts with "QANTAS flight, QANTAS pilot" statement on them for us to wear in public on days off.

Sell them on Ebay, much easier this way.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:53
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I'd wear one when I'm flying as SLF.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 06:54
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Perhaps with a JT picture on the front...
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