MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
Yes, not that I'm a big fan of his, but Dick nailed it.
The punters want Australian wages and conditions but are only willing to pay Asian prices. Its not just with airlines, its everything.
It's the punters that have decided Qantas' fate.
The punters want Australian wages and conditions but are only willing to pay Asian prices. Its not just with airlines, its everything.
It's the punters that have decided Qantas' fate.
The punters want Australian wages and conditions but are only willing to pay Asian prices. Its not jusy (sic) with airlines, its everything.
It's the punters that have decided Qantas' fate.
I am sure this is a deliberate move to get government intervention and a "forced" result. He is betting that they will be told to pay something (2-3% etc) but wont have to sign any job security clauses. As long as he doesn't have to do that, he has won in his mind.
On the other side, if JB doesn't announce tomorrow they are buying another 10 330s immediately, he is mad.
On the other side, if JB doesn't announce tomorrow they are buying another 10 330s immediately, he is mad.
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I have been busy over the past few hours reaccommodating clients and basically putting out bushfires.
This is starting to smell of the '89 debacle without a compliant PM to set it all up to take care of a fat obnoxious mate who bought his daughter a car.
I am sorry, but the Total Wankers Union has never been a favourite of mine after numerous disputes, and I despise some of the ex TN senior management in Qantas too (not you Whirley W) but think you are all being far too self important.
AJ - hello? Parameters were set for remuneration and mauch as I do not like his style of management, they were met. Pay time.
The Airline is profitable but in a market where MH is offering 5.5K business class return fares to Europe as opposes to 9K plus QF. That is pretty much a work of art being profitable.
The base rates have always sucked in ramp, but the penalties and overtime paid off my house before I turned 30. It is a pretty good gig really guys and girls - admit it.
Be scared union friendly dudes. If the airline shuts down and restructures with Government approval and support (remember the other part of '89 excluding you all blaming each other and not looking at the real villains) then you may have no jobs to go back to. The Union clowns will have long gone missing. No further dollars/ No more "rah rah" and going in search of another victim.
I got into trouble in ADL after I went to AN there for not joining the FCU. Told the local State manager to go pound sand up his arse. In 2 cases with TAA pulling out and then East West being swallowed and drowned by Ansett the union reps went totally missing once it was a done deal. Nothing.
Look over your shoulders guys and girls. When the goiung gets tough the union goes missing.
They are pretty much irrelevant now and only love you long time when you are paying.
If there is a chance you won't be, POOF - what rep?
All of you - GET OVER IT.
Sure, push for no overseas outsourcing. Live with the current pay offer (Coming out of difficult financial times - 2% less is still an increase) and TAKE CARE OF YOUR BLOODY AIRLINE!
This whole thing would be making many true Airline men and women roll in their graves.
The industry is nearly beyond hope of retaining a semblance of its former greatness.
Please do not trash it now.
Best all
EWL
This is starting to smell of the '89 debacle without a compliant PM to set it all up to take care of a fat obnoxious mate who bought his daughter a car.
I am sorry, but the Total Wankers Union has never been a favourite of mine after numerous disputes, and I despise some of the ex TN senior management in Qantas too (not you Whirley W) but think you are all being far too self important.
AJ - hello? Parameters were set for remuneration and mauch as I do not like his style of management, they were met. Pay time.
The Airline is profitable but in a market where MH is offering 5.5K business class return fares to Europe as opposes to 9K plus QF. That is pretty much a work of art being profitable.
The base rates have always sucked in ramp, but the penalties and overtime paid off my house before I turned 30. It is a pretty good gig really guys and girls - admit it.
Be scared union friendly dudes. If the airline shuts down and restructures with Government approval and support (remember the other part of '89 excluding you all blaming each other and not looking at the real villains) then you may have no jobs to go back to. The Union clowns will have long gone missing. No further dollars/ No more "rah rah" and going in search of another victim.
I got into trouble in ADL after I went to AN there for not joining the FCU. Told the local State manager to go pound sand up his arse. In 2 cases with TAA pulling out and then East West being swallowed and drowned by Ansett the union reps went totally missing once it was a done deal. Nothing.
Look over your shoulders guys and girls. When the goiung gets tough the union goes missing.
They are pretty much irrelevant now and only love you long time when you are paying.
If there is a chance you won't be, POOF - what rep?
All of you - GET OVER IT.
Sure, push for no overseas outsourcing. Live with the current pay offer (Coming out of difficult financial times - 2% less is still an increase) and TAKE CARE OF YOUR BLOODY AIRLINE!
This whole thing would be making many true Airline men and women roll in their graves.
The industry is nearly beyond hope of retaining a semblance of its former greatness.
Please do not trash it now.
Best all
EWL
the only variable here is FWA and the federal government.
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Just looking at the vox pop on www.abc.net.au - 97% of people blaming AJ and calling for his sacking
Yes just be calm and it will all sort itself out...
Clearly designed to force the Govt's hands and get FWA to bypass normal procedures. This will probably happen sooner rather than later and ops 'normal' again thereafter. Then the locking-out won't need to happen.
Should it do so though....
1) Being locked-out for wearing ties and making PA's?
Even if the unions had gone on strike within the confines of the terms of PIA then what possible legal justification could there be for locking-out staff?
Surely QF must be open themselves to some sort of legal recourse here? Again their lawyers must have trawled the fine-print before this action but it does seem amazingly blatant. If the laws of the land allow employers to lock out staff for no good reason (wearing red ties) then they are seriously in need of amendment.
It also shows amazing disrespect for the Federal Government under whose auspices the FWA protocol was set-up. The QF Board clearly see themselves as beyond/above these procedures. Albeit they are playing poker-face by forcing the Gov't to intervene - ordering everybody back to work - and thus bypassing normal PIA procedures.
2) Even the mere intention of carrying out lock-outs etc was material to yesterday's AGM. This is in no way beneficial to shareholder value and must be in breach of some required disclosure clauses (???)
There are lots of armchair experts and critics (damn those evil unions trying to destroy humanity as we know it!) but this is simply about bloody-minded corporate greed and power.
I work for a foreign airline and get paid much more than my colleagues at Qantas. My airline is based in Asia and is extremely profitable.
This whole "we must join Asia with low salaries" is a smokescreen and in many cases simply incorrect. The buffoons who peddle it (the Peter Reiths of this world) are only using this as a Trojan horse to try to force through political agendas more relevant in the 70's when unions really were out of control.
Too much bastardry going on here.
No wonder people are demonstrating the world-over at such similar corporate excesses. Hopefully the perpetrators of these excesses will be held to account (not holding breath).
Clearly designed to force the Govt's hands and get FWA to bypass normal procedures. This will probably happen sooner rather than later and ops 'normal' again thereafter. Then the locking-out won't need to happen.
Should it do so though....
1) Being locked-out for wearing ties and making PA's?
Even if the unions had gone on strike within the confines of the terms of PIA then what possible legal justification could there be for locking-out staff?
Surely QF must be open themselves to some sort of legal recourse here? Again their lawyers must have trawled the fine-print before this action but it does seem amazingly blatant. If the laws of the land allow employers to lock out staff for no good reason (wearing red ties) then they are seriously in need of amendment.
It also shows amazing disrespect for the Federal Government under whose auspices the FWA protocol was set-up. The QF Board clearly see themselves as beyond/above these procedures. Albeit they are playing poker-face by forcing the Gov't to intervene - ordering everybody back to work - and thus bypassing normal PIA procedures.
2) Even the mere intention of carrying out lock-outs etc was material to yesterday's AGM. This is in no way beneficial to shareholder value and must be in breach of some required disclosure clauses (???)
There are lots of armchair experts and critics (damn those evil unions trying to destroy humanity as we know it!) but this is simply about bloody-minded corporate greed and power.
I work for a foreign airline and get paid much more than my colleagues at Qantas. My airline is based in Asia and is extremely profitable.
This whole "we must join Asia with low salaries" is a smokescreen and in many cases simply incorrect. The buffoons who peddle it (the Peter Reiths of this world) are only using this as a Trojan horse to try to force through political agendas more relevant in the 70's when unions really were out of control.
Too much bastardry going on here.
No wonder people are demonstrating the world-over at such similar corporate excesses. Hopefully the perpetrators of these excesses will be held to account (not holding breath).
Sprucegoose
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I am sure this is a deliberate move to get government intervention and a "forced" result. He is betting that they will be told to pay something (2-3% etc) but wont have to sign any job security clauses. As long as he doesn't have to do that, he has won in his mind.
Some corporate leaders having their say ...
Leaders lead by example; Alan Joyce should have said no to a pay rise this week. Very disappointed in the Qantas board and its chairman ... Ita Buttrose(twitter)
I work for a foreign airline and get paid much more than my colleagues at Qantas. My airline is based in Asia and is extremely profitable.
There is no way you can relate Hong Kong to what is normally referred to as Asia. I know, I live here.
Keg said:
Let’s see how many do.
The main enemies of employees in the aviation industry aren’t management executives: The main enemies of those employees are other people who are prepared to be employed at a much lower price.
It will be unedifying to watch all the employees of other airlines in Australia - pilots, engineers, cabin crew and ground staff - now working harder, for the same money - to enable their employers and QANTAS executives to feast on the fat – let’s hope it’s not the carcass - of QANTAS.
I can recall the taxpayer spending lots of money, a decade and half or so ago, to keep QANTAS going. I agreed with that at the time, because I thought that the sacrifice of my and my family’s standard of living through the diversion of consolidated revenue to that purpose was for the public benefit. Now, unfortunately, QANTAS is a ‘brand’ that must be ‘protected’ by the executives of QANTAS, apparently for the purposes of ensuring that a small subset of people – not the taxpayers of course – are ensured increases in income, notwithstanding the absence of an equivalent increase in income for those who actually produce the service from which the income is derived.
I was given a piece of advice a couple of decades ago, and I recount it for what it’s worth: There’s no security in being employed; there’s only security in being employable.
At the time, and for a considerable period afterwards, I understood what that advice meant: If you’re qualified to do only one job, you’ll get paid whatever your employer, or another employer of the skills you have, is prepared to pay. There can be a background of awards and tribunals and all that stuff, but the outcome will eventually be the same.
The upshot is that if you’re not willing or able to go somewhere else and do something different, you’ll get paid whatever TF your employer decides you’ll get paid.
But then something finally dawned on me a few years ago (I’m a slow learner): only employees get told what they get paid.
Revelation: If you don’t like what you’re being paid by your employer, and you can’t find someone else to pay you what you want, then make the money yourself or STFU.
Supervisories and senior checks not locked out. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if a number of the senior checks resign though!
The main enemies of employees in the aviation industry aren’t management executives: The main enemies of those employees are other people who are prepared to be employed at a much lower price.
It will be unedifying to watch all the employees of other airlines in Australia - pilots, engineers, cabin crew and ground staff - now working harder, for the same money - to enable their employers and QANTAS executives to feast on the fat – let’s hope it’s not the carcass - of QANTAS.
I can recall the taxpayer spending lots of money, a decade and half or so ago, to keep QANTAS going. I agreed with that at the time, because I thought that the sacrifice of my and my family’s standard of living through the diversion of consolidated revenue to that purpose was for the public benefit. Now, unfortunately, QANTAS is a ‘brand’ that must be ‘protected’ by the executives of QANTAS, apparently for the purposes of ensuring that a small subset of people – not the taxpayers of course – are ensured increases in income, notwithstanding the absence of an equivalent increase in income for those who actually produce the service from which the income is derived.
I was given a piece of advice a couple of decades ago, and I recount it for what it’s worth: There’s no security in being employed; there’s only security in being employable.
At the time, and for a considerable period afterwards, I understood what that advice meant: If you’re qualified to do only one job, you’ll get paid whatever your employer, or another employer of the skills you have, is prepared to pay. There can be a background of awards and tribunals and all that stuff, but the outcome will eventually be the same.
The upshot is that if you’re not willing or able to go somewhere else and do something different, you’ll get paid whatever TF your employer decides you’ll get paid.
But then something finally dawned on me a few years ago (I’m a slow learner): only employees get told what they get paid.
Revelation: If you don’t like what you’re being paid by your employer, and you can’t find someone else to pay you what you want, then make the money yourself or STFU.
An interesting detail in all of this is the fact that those pilots "stranded" on overseas flights will be paid.In the past a lock-out meant just that and the pilots would have to make their own arrangements to get home.I would suggest that this is a good bargaining point for the AIPA.They have domestic pilots not involved in this dispute being locked-out.They should threaten to bring home all those pilots in LHR,BKK.HKG etc and leave those aircraft uncrewed.It would take a week to get those aircraft back when this is resolved as it will be, because the government has too much to lose if it can't handle this one.
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Mr. Conductor. A couple of questions please should you have the answers/opinion/time. Can you share what the Pilots actually want? The Gent from the AIPA indicated that QF was being turned into an Asian airline. How can that happen with the Pilots?.
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I believe that AJ is the puppet and LC the puppet master.He is the danger man with his own agenda and bullies the board.Just have a look at who the board members are!..
Boy, is the government pis$ed off..This is gonna backfire on the Board and management bigtime..heads have to roll!!
Boy, is the government pis$ed off..This is gonna backfire on the Board and management bigtime..heads have to roll!!
A conspiracy?
Am I the only one that thinks this is a conspiracy?
1. This was planned - obvious, by QF and the Gov't!
2. The Gov't and QF have for weeks said they don't want intervention - but they have been talking for weeks. The Gov't is looking for a "win".
3. Shut the airline on Melbourne Cup week - he couldn't be that dumb, it was done to maximise hysterical impact and force an immediate resolution - cue the gov't.
4. It was leaked to the media early today, in planning for weeks/months.
5. Albanese expresses "shock" - yeah right, he knew all along.
6. The Prime Minister says FWA should sort it out (she's responsible for the Act and FWA).
7. FWA will cancel the industrial action and "solve" the dispute.
8. The Prime minister gets credited for "solving" the dispute, vindicating herself and FWA and improving her polling for "saving QF and the Melbourne Cup".
9. After a time of peace,
10. QF Sales ACT recinded by parliament. that's the deal (suddenly the "unamed" Asian airline becomes "Qantas Asia")
11. QF move most Ops offshore, Qantas expands - though based in Singa's, the public don't care, they see QF planes all around the world - funny accent though!
12. AJ moves to Singa's, the domestic arm of Qantas flies Capital Cities only. Jetstar expands 10 fold.
13. Jetstar is split from the group and sold off (who makes a squillion?)
14. Qantas is withdrawn from the ASX and eventually sold to a foreign entity.
1. This was planned - obvious, by QF and the Gov't!
2. The Gov't and QF have for weeks said they don't want intervention - but they have been talking for weeks. The Gov't is looking for a "win".
3. Shut the airline on Melbourne Cup week - he couldn't be that dumb, it was done to maximise hysterical impact and force an immediate resolution - cue the gov't.
4. It was leaked to the media early today, in planning for weeks/months.
5. Albanese expresses "shock" - yeah right, he knew all along.
6. The Prime Minister says FWA should sort it out (she's responsible for the Act and FWA).
7. FWA will cancel the industrial action and "solve" the dispute.
8. The Prime minister gets credited for "solving" the dispute, vindicating herself and FWA and improving her polling for "saving QF and the Melbourne Cup".
9. After a time of peace,
10. QF Sales ACT recinded by parliament. that's the deal (suddenly the "unamed" Asian airline becomes "Qantas Asia")
11. QF move most Ops offshore, Qantas expands - though based in Singa's, the public don't care, they see QF planes all around the world - funny accent though!
12. AJ moves to Singa's, the domestic arm of Qantas flies Capital Cities only. Jetstar expands 10 fold.
13. Jetstar is split from the group and sold off (who makes a squillion?)
14. Qantas is withdrawn from the ASX and eventually sold to a foreign entity.
Last edited by The The; 29th Oct 2011 at 11:06.
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What I can NOT understand is even IF the Unions were asking for way too much, and threatening massive industrial action (they are NOT but even IF they were) okay Qantas and AJ could threaten to stand everyone down and cease flying from 8PM Monday (or whenever in the future) but what kind of lunatic just grounds the whole Airline like this, especially after giving himself a 71% pay rise only yesterday. 
