MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
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Truth is a relative concept.
It has many faces. Based on different people's perceptions, truth can have a variety of definitions.
Fact, reality, and certainty would be the closest definitions.
But fact is not always the truth because it is subject to change on the axis of time and space.
Reality too, is dependable on conditions influencing perception and certainty is a slave to circumstance.
So what is the truth?.
To politicians, truth is any favourable statement matching their ambitions for power.
To the rich, truth is monetary gain and; to the poor truth is deprivation and suffering.
World public is a strangely forgiving body. It forgives lies by politicians on the grounds that they are among the tools of their profession.
It forgives the fighting military, either side; for lying on the grounds that in war you resort to anything to further your objective.
It, however, does not forgive the weak, the downtrodden and the oppressed.
Dr. G. Rauf Roashan.
Qantas 0 – the mob 1. DO NOT let this gift slip by.
Selah
Fact, reality, and certainty would be the closest definitions.
But fact is not always the truth because it is subject to change on the axis of time and space.
Reality too, is dependable on conditions influencing perception and certainty is a slave to circumstance.
So what is the truth?.
To politicians, truth is any favourable statement matching their ambitions for power.
To the rich, truth is monetary gain and; to the poor truth is deprivation and suffering.
World public is a strangely forgiving body. It forgives lies by politicians on the grounds that they are among the tools of their profession.
It forgives the fighting military, either side; for lying on the grounds that in war you resort to anything to further your objective.
It, however, does not forgive the weak, the downtrodden and the oppressed.
Dr. G. Rauf Roashan.
Qantas 0 – the mob 1. DO NOT let this gift slip by.
Selah
The New Private Equity
Continuing with the Conspiracy,
A few years ago, GD thought he had the way to make himself and his friends incredibly rich - private equity. Well, it came undone and he had to settle for just a few tens of millions.
Now we have LC, AJ and a few others on the same idea, how to make a squillion? The answer is 1. The unions, 2. the Gov't, 3. The Qantas Sales Act. They have two ticks in the box - industrial unrest and the Gov't. No. 3 will follow as the first two fall into place just as they planned.
THIS DISPUTE IS ALL ABOUT RECINDING THE QANTAS SALES ACT.
Qiud pro Quo. The Gov't "solves" the immediate dispute, the game plan falls into place for QF (executives).
Theses guys are smart, very very smart. But moreover they are greedy, very very very greedy. The Gov't response is gullible, gullible, gullible.
A little bit of collateral damage is worth it, there are going to be unprecedented amounts of money made by select indiviuals from this. The unions are snookered, the Gov't implicit.
I hate to say it, but to end this excessive greed, we need to end Qantas. Let it fold and be reborn.
A few years ago, GD thought he had the way to make himself and his friends incredibly rich - private equity. Well, it came undone and he had to settle for just a few tens of millions.
Now we have LC, AJ and a few others on the same idea, how to make a squillion? The answer is 1. The unions, 2. the Gov't, 3. The Qantas Sales Act. They have two ticks in the box - industrial unrest and the Gov't. No. 3 will follow as the first two fall into place just as they planned.
THIS DISPUTE IS ALL ABOUT RECINDING THE QANTAS SALES ACT.
Qiud pro Quo. The Gov't "solves" the immediate dispute, the game plan falls into place for QF (executives).
Theses guys are smart, very very smart. But moreover they are greedy, very very very greedy. The Gov't response is gullible, gullible, gullible.
A little bit of collateral damage is worth it, there are going to be unprecedented amounts of money made by select indiviuals from this. The unions are snookered, the Gov't implicit.
I hate to say it, but to end this excessive greed, we need to end Qantas. Let it fold and be reborn.
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I hate to say it, but to end this excessive greed, we need to end Qantas. Let it fold and be reborn.
Hopefully, some of the big investors will be calling for AJ's blood come Monday morning when the share price comes tumbling down and he's taken a 71% pay increase.
Better still, revoke his Australian citizenship and send back to Oirland.
Twitter
she is at the FWA meeting right now if you're interested in live updates
she is at the FWA meeting right now if you're interested in live updates
Qantas counsel says lockout without grounding would be risky, causes safety concerns, could distract people in key roles
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Just on 24 ABC, other airline aka virgin capacity is maxed out. So if this continues, passengers will be stranded for many days.
Maybe a patch work would be utilize the jetstar and qantaslink fleet to move the passengers? The dash 8 pretty much sits idle in the middle of the night.
Surely the transport minister will wave the noise abatement in Sydney to help the stranded passengers.
Maybe a patch work would be utilize the jetstar and qantaslink fleet to move the passengers? The dash 8 pretty much sits idle in the middle of the night.
Surely the transport minister will wave the noise abatement in Sydney to help the stranded passengers.
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This had to be premeditated
This had to have been planned but the timing was poor. Were any of the unions taking action at the time this kicked off (this afternoon), I know it was threatened but was there anything happening today. This clown has fired both barrels at his feet:
- Misled the share holders, at least the majority
- Given himself a bonus whilst stopping all revenue
- Betrayed the customers who actually paid for his wage rise.
- Neglected to inform ASIC.
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hmm,
Greens Leader Bob Brown sided with the unions, demanding Ms Gillard press Qantas management over the strike.
“This lock out is also a sell out of the spirit of Australia,” Senator Brown said today.
“It is a multi-millionaire’s lock out of responsible decent pilots, crew and other staff whose work gives Australia the world’s best airline.
“This lock out is about exporting Qantas to a world of lower cost, lower services values and lower safety. The Government should stand up to Qantas’ selfish top brass,” Senator Brown said.
Greens Leader Bob Brown sided with the unions, demanding Ms Gillard press Qantas management over the strike.
“This lock out is also a sell out of the spirit of Australia,” Senator Brown said today.
“It is a multi-millionaire’s lock out of responsible decent pilots, crew and other staff whose work gives Australia the world’s best airline.
“This lock out is about exporting Qantas to a world of lower cost, lower services values and lower safety. The Government should stand up to Qantas’ selfish top brass,” Senator Brown said.
This will be resolved either tonight or within the next couple of days. Passengers should be moving again before Monday.
This is all about management forcing the government to intervene and remove worker's rights to try and prevent their jobs being offshored. Management will get their wish.
This is all about management forcing the government to intervene and remove worker's rights to try and prevent their jobs being offshored. Management will get their wish.
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I've only read half this thread (it's growing too fast), but I have been following this issue for a long time. I am a passenger, not a pilot, not an employee of any airline. I travel internationally from Aus about 4 times every 2 years, and internally about every 3 months. Here's my take and a few questions:
Take:
1 - many of the comments here seem to be from Qantas workers
2 - some workers/unionists must think that we, the public, are fools. A section strikes for 4 hours, then wrings it's hand saying why doesn't Qantas get the planes back in the air (last week - baggage handlers/engineers, etc). Do you think that we are such fools that we don't realise that the whole timetable for the day has been stuffed: planes are in the wrong locations, landing slots may not be available at destinations, etc.
3 - no one is this world is guaranteed job security. Can't you see that this is a claim that will never get accepted anywhere?
4 - more damage has been done to the Qantas brand by Qantas staff than by management.
5 - words and concepts like 'un-Australian' are just motherhood jingo. Get over it - Australians work all around the world taking 'jobs of locals', and the way Qantas employees are going we will be getting accustomed to many more foreign accents in 'Australian' workplaces.
6 - if you work for Qantas, your union leaders are doing you no favours.
7 - the last international flights I have flown are:
7a - London return - Singapore Airlines. Cheaper and in my view, equal or better service than Qantas
7b - Vancouver & return via Auckland - code share Air NZ/Air Canada. Less convenient than Qantas connections, but cheaper and in my view equal or better service than Qantas.
7c - San Francisco & return via Sydney - Cheaper, very average service, would use next cheapest next time. Would use Qantas if they were price competitive.
7d - Jahannesburg & return - Qantas because I had accumulated over 400,000 frequent flyer points over the last years, had not used any for the past 4 years and decided to use them up.
From this you'll see I am like many others - I am driven by a price/value/quality equation, and Qantas no longer comes out near best. Without people like me buying tickets. people like you won't have a job. It's that simple. Price yourselves out of the market, and the market will move on without you, or your employer, or Joyce. His successor will be more hard-line, and so on until Qantas, in whatever form it is then, can survive. And it will probably be without you, and your unions, and it won't matter a single jot that people will call it 'un-Australian'. Let's face it - it will be as Australian as Vegemite.
Questions:
A - what do people hope to achieve by becoming abusive, calling management criminals, etc? (The only answer I have at the moment is that it shows the level of mindless drivel that some people spout).
B - How do strikers think or believe that they will get a favourable outcome by crippling the organization that employs them?
C - Do the strikers/unions think that the short-lived feeling of satisfaction they may get if AJ is replaced will last them long enough when they are faced with the next hard b*st*rd that is appointed to do what needs to be done?
D - And will that feeling of satisfaction pay their mortgages and childrens school fees when the crippled entity they once worked for manages to survive and recover facing the global inevitably?
PS - how many of you watch the news on Australian made televisions, or search the internet on Australian made computers, while wearing your asian-made clothes, eating food produced by Australian-owned companies? I could go on, but I won't. You aren't the solution - you are just now facing the problem and the reality that has hit much of the rest of Australia in the last 30 years. A country of less than 25m people is not very significant in world terms, no matter how much you or I wish it were. Fortress Australia/Qantas does not exist.
Take:
1 - many of the comments here seem to be from Qantas workers
2 - some workers/unionists must think that we, the public, are fools. A section strikes for 4 hours, then wrings it's hand saying why doesn't Qantas get the planes back in the air (last week - baggage handlers/engineers, etc). Do you think that we are such fools that we don't realise that the whole timetable for the day has been stuffed: planes are in the wrong locations, landing slots may not be available at destinations, etc.
3 - no one is this world is guaranteed job security. Can't you see that this is a claim that will never get accepted anywhere?
4 - more damage has been done to the Qantas brand by Qantas staff than by management.
5 - words and concepts like 'un-Australian' are just motherhood jingo. Get over it - Australians work all around the world taking 'jobs of locals', and the way Qantas employees are going we will be getting accustomed to many more foreign accents in 'Australian' workplaces.
6 - if you work for Qantas, your union leaders are doing you no favours.
7 - the last international flights I have flown are:
7a - London return - Singapore Airlines. Cheaper and in my view, equal or better service than Qantas
7b - Vancouver & return via Auckland - code share Air NZ/Air Canada. Less convenient than Qantas connections, but cheaper and in my view equal or better service than Qantas.
7c - San Francisco & return via Sydney - Cheaper, very average service, would use next cheapest next time. Would use Qantas if they were price competitive.
7d - Jahannesburg & return - Qantas because I had accumulated over 400,000 frequent flyer points over the last years, had not used any for the past 4 years and decided to use them up.
From this you'll see I am like many others - I am driven by a price/value/quality equation, and Qantas no longer comes out near best. Without people like me buying tickets. people like you won't have a job. It's that simple. Price yourselves out of the market, and the market will move on without you, or your employer, or Joyce. His successor will be more hard-line, and so on until Qantas, in whatever form it is then, can survive. And it will probably be without you, and your unions, and it won't matter a single jot that people will call it 'un-Australian'. Let's face it - it will be as Australian as Vegemite.
Questions:
A - what do people hope to achieve by becoming abusive, calling management criminals, etc? (The only answer I have at the moment is that it shows the level of mindless drivel that some people spout).
B - How do strikers think or believe that they will get a favourable outcome by crippling the organization that employs them?
C - Do the strikers/unions think that the short-lived feeling of satisfaction they may get if AJ is replaced will last them long enough when they are faced with the next hard b*st*rd that is appointed to do what needs to be done?
D - And will that feeling of satisfaction pay their mortgages and childrens school fees when the crippled entity they once worked for manages to survive and recover facing the global inevitably?
PS - how many of you watch the news on Australian made televisions, or search the internet on Australian made computers, while wearing your asian-made clothes, eating food produced by Australian-owned companies? I could go on, but I won't. You aren't the solution - you are just now facing the problem and the reality that has hit much of the rest of Australia in the last 30 years. A country of less than 25m people is not very significant in world terms, no matter how much you or I wish it were. Fortress Australia/Qantas does not exist.
Qantas fold - extremely unlikely.
It's all just a big game to make you scared.
There are too many aircraft leases, too many corporate contracts, a far-too valuable brand and too much business infrastructure to simply shut down or even massively downsize the airline. No, there are very few similarities to Ansett.
The QF Board (suspect that Joyce is just the mouthpiece for one particularly 'driven' board-member) are trying to play you all like puppets.
They're playing the Government (force FWA meeting and force everybody to settle). They're playing the employees ("Gee look they've shut the business down, we better get back into our holes and never misbehave again") and they've got Tony Abbott right where they want him.
But what the hell for? To compete with Garuda and Korean Air?
Yes sure there will be some (like a previous poster) whose prime concern is cost. I don't fly those airlines when I holiday out of Australia. I fly Qantas for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure I'll get there in one piece. If the A380 I'm in has an engine explode I'm pretty sure the pilots will handle it well. I would fly Virgin, ANZ, JAL, Emirates too. Ironically enough, a recent family trip OS was slightly cheaper on Qantas than the 4 other alternative airlines. The flight wasn't historically cheap, (they would have made a profit) and it was packed full too.
So this board will spit the dummy, shut down the airline temporarily, not play by the industrial laws of the land and for what? To speed the cheapening of an Australian icon and make it more like Vietnam Airlines? What the hell for?
So in spite of the right-wing, self-proclaimed free enterprise experts coming onto this forum (it is a pilots forum btw so what do you expect?) I cannot categorize the current QF Boards' actions as anything other than Stupid management personified.
Yes the industry is global but their current stance is like Steve Jobs saying "We need to make the Mac cheaper and crappier to compete with Dell". Quality is quality and people are prepared to pay for it. Sure not all (they fly Jetstar and Air Asia).
In summary - the board's actions do not reflect The Spirit of Australia one iota. And for the reasons above, they don't reflect sound business judgement either.
It's all just a big game to make you scared.
There are too many aircraft leases, too many corporate contracts, a far-too valuable brand and too much business infrastructure to simply shut down or even massively downsize the airline. No, there are very few similarities to Ansett.
The QF Board (suspect that Joyce is just the mouthpiece for one particularly 'driven' board-member) are trying to play you all like puppets.
They're playing the Government (force FWA meeting and force everybody to settle). They're playing the employees ("Gee look they've shut the business down, we better get back into our holes and never misbehave again") and they've got Tony Abbott right where they want him.
But what the hell for? To compete with Garuda and Korean Air?
Yes sure there will be some (like a previous poster) whose prime concern is cost. I don't fly those airlines when I holiday out of Australia. I fly Qantas for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure I'll get there in one piece. If the A380 I'm in has an engine explode I'm pretty sure the pilots will handle it well. I would fly Virgin, ANZ, JAL, Emirates too. Ironically enough, a recent family trip OS was slightly cheaper on Qantas than the 4 other alternative airlines. The flight wasn't historically cheap, (they would have made a profit) and it was packed full too.
So this board will spit the dummy, shut down the airline temporarily, not play by the industrial laws of the land and for what? To speed the cheapening of an Australian icon and make it more like Vietnam Airlines? What the hell for?
So in spite of the right-wing, self-proclaimed free enterprise experts coming onto this forum (it is a pilots forum btw so what do you expect?) I cannot categorize the current QF Boards' actions as anything other than Stupid management personified.
Yes the industry is global but their current stance is like Steve Jobs saying "We need to make the Mac cheaper and crappier to compete with Dell". Quality is quality and people are prepared to pay for it. Sure not all (they fly Jetstar and Air Asia).
In summary - the board's actions do not reflect The Spirit of Australia one iota. And for the reasons above, they don't reflect sound business judgement either.
Last edited by Al E. Vator; 29th Oct 2011 at 12:43.
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Maybe a patch work would be utilize the jetstar and qantaslink fleet to move the passengers? The dash 8 pretty much sits idle in the middle of the night.
The whole Group is F
ked!Fuel-Off
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Maybe a patch work would be utilize the jetstar and qantaslink fleet to move the passengers? The dash 8 pretty much sits idle in the middle of the night.]
Bubble head, maybe because the pilots that fly the dash from dawn to dusk are asleep in the middle of the night.
an interestesting post on Qantas's Facebook page from someone
If that's true, certainly the management were in charge of some material information that may affect the share price and as such should've called a trading halt immediately.
Joanne (protected) Well? Again, i can tell you guys that i'm working in some hotel in Sydney and my dad own a hotel in Melbourne, we got all book out cause Qantas book all of our rooms in the last months for this few days you guys will believe like a switch? Wake up people. Be more realistic on what you believe from the media and from what people want to say. All this interviews from passengers and things like that are been screen so we can believe them and see the worse of whats happening. Thats the power of Media.
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Hey! Great idea. Lets use JETSTAR to pick up the slack.
Evertonian
Two thoughts...
Does FWA hae the power to force a company to reopen?
Joyce says to shut down, but if all the staff ignored the order & carried on...well...?
Does FWA hae the power to force a company to reopen?
Joyce says to shut down, but if all the staff ignored the order & carried on...well...?