Jetstar legal action update

[toolish]

Phoenix NZ

You actually started out OK but after that did yourself and all the other cadets no favours at all.

You are correct it is the company we should fighting on this cadet issue but what have chosen to ignore is the fact that we have been fighting hence the increase in YOUR T&C.

You talk about not flying with cadet. What is happening is that we can't refuse to fly with them so instead we fly and you will be allowed to move the flap and gear lever and maybe an odd radio call as long as you don't stuff that up.

I actually dont have a problem with what you are saying I have a problem with the ATTITUDE you are displaying. If you enter my flight deck with that attitude you will be going home and on the flexi line policy expect to live on closer to 40K and good luck with those sims.

[slamer.]

PNZ .. Whats the demographic of your cadet course...?

[balance]

Phoenix NZ:

Thats the difference between the two of us. I wouldn't get pissed off at the guy doing the driving, I'd be pissed off at the guy who offered him the car

Can you really blame a 17 year old for wanting to drive? Isn't it ulitmately the car owners job to ensure that the drivers is up for the job.

Thats my whole point here folks. Your blaming the cadets for taking what is realistically a great offer for someone of our level of experience. When in fact its QF/JQ who are giving us the jobs in the first place.

Prima Facie this seems logical, doesnt it?

Phoenix, the problem with your logic is that the 17 year old driver is being repeatedly told by the older more experienced drivers that he shouldnt be doing what he is doing. And when the 17 year old has an accident BOTH the 17 year old and the guy who offered him the car EQUALLY culpable, because NEITHER listened to what they were told.

Remember my friend, your arse is in that aircraft too. Along with hundreds of punters, and plenty on the ground who need you to make it from point A to point B safely.

The guy who offered the car isn't necessaily in that car with you. So there is an excellent chance that this fella want to make some dough, and he isnt fussed about some risk assessment, he just wants the cash. You can see the conflicting interests, I'm sure.

So mate, listen to the wise people on this thread. Stop with this immature attitude that you are displaying. Get the experience up, earn the respect of your peers, and only then will you be able to do this job without being a danger to yourself and others.

[PhoenixNZ]

Question:

Given that the cadets program in the UK has been going on for quite some time now, has there been any documented evidence that these cadets have been involved in any more incidents than a standard pilot has been?

Everyone is coming to the conclusion that cadets are worse pilots than existing/experienced ones but I'm just curious if this is in any way a proven fact or just an assumption that everyone is jumping onto because it supports their own point of view.

I'm not saying your wrong, logic would suggest that if you have more experience then you are less likely to have an incident, but is there anything out there that actually backs up your statements.

The other point I'll make is simply around the availability of jobs in the GA sector. I dont know about Australia but certainly in New Zealand they aren't exactly a dime a dozen. There need to be the jobs available first before one can actually get there.

I'm not 100% certain of going into a cadet program straight out of training. I can certainly see there is some benefit to GA flying for a year or two first. But when push comes to shove if the option is have no job or get into a cadet program, I know which one I'm going for.

You are correct it is the company we should fighting on this cadet issue but what have chosen to ignore is the fact that we have been fighting hence the increase in YOUR T&C.

I dont ignore that at all. I think its great that the unions have been able to get a good outcome. But regardless I dont think its right to be abusing people for taking what is a good job offer just because you dont yourself like that job offer because it MAY (and I stress the word MAY because to my knowledge no existing pilot has lost his/her job or had a reduction in their pay because of the cadet program) have a negative impact on you.

As I've said all along, I completely understand why existing pilots disliking cadet programs I can see where they are coming from. The existing pilots on the other hand make no such effort to understand the position of the cadets being offered these programs. They instead simply abuse and degrade them for simply doing what the cadets feel is their best option.

And in reality I would say that 95% of them if they were in the same positions when they started their flying careers, they would be signing up right along side me. Because what sort of person passes up double the pay and a chance to jump start their career when they are new out of training.

[Angle of Attack]

No, Basically Jetstar cadets have caused an absolute $hitfight, and if i was offered a job when I was in GA NO I would never have accepted it because $hit still smelt like $hit back then! I have never paid for any endorsement in my whole life and I have still worked out OK lol! (ie winner not loser!)

[32megapixels]

"Because what sort of person passes up double the pay and a chance to jump start their career when they are new out of training''


This is the reason the industry is attracting the wrong type of person. Not that long ago it was someone who was in love with the art of aviation that would do what they could to secure their first job and build up skills through a variety of different routes in aviation. Military, GA (charter/instructing) etc. You actually have to deal with people and get some people skills!

Remember, double a dollar is only 2 dollars, but it aint gonna pay the bills when your on that for the next 6-8 years of your life!

Just a side note, maybe you'll also rely on automation so much you won't know what the do when the ****e hits the fan - Air France sound familiar??

Get some skills first!!!!!

[Fondair]

Pheonix, you raise some great points and I appreciate that you put in the time and effort to get those points across. Especially to a community that in general doesn't agree with you.

I've missed the ab-initio boat but if I can I will definitely try to get into an advanced cadet course.

[Keg]

...has there been any documented evidence that these cadets have been involved in any more incidents than a standard pilot has been?

No. There is no documented evidence. Wanna know why? Because it's not in the airline's interest to do the research. They'd look like dills if it came out that cadets in fact WERE involved in a greater number of heavy landings, Captains taking control, bank angle warnings, etc. No longer could they hide behind their bold statements about cadets being just as safe as everyone else. No longer could they base their recruitment plans on two arms, two legs, a pulse and a wad of cash.

The other issue of course is that they're simply considered a 'pilot' once checked out and so very little data is kept as to their background. It's all put down as 'total hours'.

I do hear of people citing 'research' that points to bad habits in skills of non cadets but I've yet to actually read that research. Strangely, that research tends to be quoted by purveyors of cadetships. However, we're not just talking about the ability to 'stick and rudder' an ILS to minima, any monkey can do that. It's about controlling the fear that comes with not much fuel and an aeroplane all over the place and THEN sticking the ILS that is the real trick. Of course, many pilots with lots of experience use that experience to avoid having to be 'aces' in the first place but at least they've seen it before for when it happens.

Everyone is coming to the conclusion that cadets are worse pilots than existing/experienced ones but I'm just curious if this is in any way a proven fact or just an assumption that everyone is jumping onto because it supports their own point of view.

Lol. The naivety of youth. It's a proven fact that lack of experience leads to situations that require superior skills to get out of. It's a proven fact that sometimes superior skills aren't enough or the others supporting you don't have them. Air France proved that not long ago. So did Colgan before that. Heck, even the recent Safety digest shows what happens with a combination of poor training and poor discipline come together.

So arguing about whether it's an assumption or a fact may make you feel warm and fuzzy but for those of us who do this for a living year in, year out it really doesn't make much of a difference. There is NO substitute for experience and when you fly with someone who lacks it, you are going to have to be extra vigilant. That my friend, is a fact.

[The Green Goblin]

May I also point out after Kegs wise words that he was in fact a Qantas cadet (now a Qantas 767 Captain), so if anyone can give balance to the equation. It's him!

Of course the cadetship Keg went through is vastly different to what is being spun by the likes of oxford and co. I would have given my eye teeth to get into the Qantas cadetship of old.

Traditional cadetships I fully support and believe it adds a good mixture of cadet, GA and military to the Pilot mix. (having cadets as copilots however was quite painful on the Metro, but they were very enthusiastic and had a great ability to learn. These guys were also the cream of the crop who were selected, not the ones who had the money)

Surprisingly Qantas used to send their cadets to a regional airline (flying Saabs, Metros etc with operators such as Airnorth,Pearl, Macair, Skippers, Brindabella) to get a few years experience before letting them in the back seat of a longhaul jet for a few more.

Go figure!

Cheers

[PhoenixNZ]

Not that long ago it was someone who was in love with the art of aviation that would do what they could to secure their first job and build up skills through a variety of different routes in aviation. Military, GA (charter/instructing) etc

This is EXACTLY my point. Cadets are simply doing whatever they can to get their first jobs in the industry that they want to work in.

Simple reality is that GA jobs in NZ are hard to come by. Growth in the aviation industry is all in the airlines, no one hears about Eagle, Mt Cook or Great Barrier Air doing massive expansions.

The jobs are in the airlines. The paths to those jobs is through cadetships. And yet cadets are getting **** on because of it. How is that fair?

No. There is no documented evidence. Wanna know why? Because it's not in the airline's interest to do the research. They'd look like dills if it came out that cadets in fact WERE involved in a greater number of heavy landings, Captains taking control, bank angle warnings, etc. No longer could they hide behind their bold statements about cadets being just as safe as everyone else. No longer could they base their recruitment plans on two arms, two legs, a pulse and a wad of cash.

I agree, if these incidents are happening then the airlines aren't likely to want to publicise it. But what about the unions. The people who are actually speaking to the pilots being affected. Have none of them done any sort of research, even if its just based on anecdotal evidence, into issues around cadets performance. Surely it would give their case against the airlines much much more weight.

Traditional cadetships I fully support and believe it adds a good mixture of cadet, GA and military to the Pilot mix.

As I'm fairly new to aviation I'm unsure the difference between the "traditional" cadet programs and the ones of today. Any chance of highlighting the main differences?

(having cadets as copilots however was quite painful on the Metro, but they were very enthusiastic and had a great ability to learn. These guys were also the cream of the crop who were selected, not the ones who had the money)

I can assure you that none of the six of us doing the current course we are on are ones who have money. We have all taken on student loans and are living it rough on student allowances to get to where we want to be in aviation.

I can also assure you that we are all very enthusiastic to learn and are all more than capable of being great pilots. None of us are getting into this on just a whim because we think it would be fun to fly a fancy jet.

Again this all comes down to necessity for a large part. If the only option in town (or even in the country) is to be a cadet so that we can make a career out of flying, how are we being sellouts or scabs etc etc for doing so. Its not like we have much other choice.

[The Green Goblin]

Simple reality is that GA jobs in NZ are hard to come by. Growth in the aviation industry is all in the airlines, no one hears about Eagle, Mt Cook or Great Barrier Air doing massive expansions.

The reason they are not recruiting is because people like you are jumping the line.

Guys used to leave the regionals for an airline gig. Why would they leave now to take a pay cut and pay 40k for an A320 rating?

The only ones interested in these schemes are cadets and DEC who are coming home after making their money in the sandpit.

As I'm fairly new to aviation I'm unsure the difference between the "traditional" cadet programs and the ones of today. Any chance of highlighting the main differences?

Everything was paid for. In Qantas' case, the cadet paid for their CPL/MECIR and were looked after from there (regional placement, seniority number, mainline slot after 2-3 years of regional placement).

I can assure you that none of the six of us doing the current course we are on are ones who have money. We have all taken on student loans and are living it rough on student allowances to get to where we want to be in aviation.

Now think about how you're going to pay that loan off (circa 100k) on 48k and buy a house, while supporting the wife and kids. You can't.....Hell I struggle on twice that.

I can also assure you that we are all very enthusiastic to learn and are all more than capable of being great pilots. None of us are getting into this on just a whim because we think it would be fun to fly a fancy jet.

You will never become a great Pilot. You may become a great systems manager. You cannot become a great Pilot flying an airbus all day on autopilot while the Captain takes the tricky sectors and you never make a decision.

In an Airbus you just point the stick where you want it to go, and it will fly there. It does not take a great Pilot to do this. It takes a great Pilot to rescue it when the computer ****s itself (Air France cadet at the controls vs Qantas crew over learmonth).

[PhoenixNZ]

The reason they are not recruiting is because people like you are jumping the line.

Guys used to leave the regionals for an airline gig. Why would they leave now to take a pay cut and pay 40k for an A320 rating?

The only ones interested in these schemes are cadets and DEC who are coming home after making their money in the sandpit.

Because we have no other options currently. Are you suggesting we just sit around for a few years on an unemployment benefit just so that we can hope that it will open some jobs in the regionals?

Everything was paid for. In Qantas' case, the cadet paid for their CPL/MECIR and were looked after from there (regional placement, seniority number, mainline slot after 2-3 years of regional placement).

Which sounds very very similar to how the cadet schemes will now work (in Aus at least) with the new contract. The main difference being that they are going directly to mainline rather than doing the regionals.

Now think about how you're going to pay that loan off (circa 100k) on 48k and buy a house, while supporting the wife and kids. You can't.....Hell I struggle on twice that.

Then your doing something wrong? I'm sorry but anyone who cant manage on $48k has some serious budgetting issues going on. Also I have no intention of staying on 48k for my entire career. I'm just happy to accept it right now while I build the hours and experience I need to move onto something better. Most likely that will be in the sandpit but that doesn't cause me any great concern. Like most jobs you have to balance money with lifestyle.

You will never become a great Pilot. You may become a great systems manager. You cannot become a great Pilot flying an airbus all day on autopilot while the Captain takes the tricky sectors and you never make a decision.

And thats different to the current drivers who have spent the last 10 years doing the same thing how? Experience is only relevant if you keep it updated. Just because 10 years ago you were able to do a glide approach in your broken down plane doesn't mean you can do the same today if you haven't had to keep doing the same thing over the years to keep the skills active.

[Oakape]

I have been following this thread since the beginning & have been trying to remain objective as I read & think about everyone's point of view. I have stayed out of the debate as it can be a very emotive topic & I didn't have much to add that hadn't already been said by parties on both sides of the fence.

However, I do have to disagree with the following -

Just because 10 years ago you were able to do a glide approach in your broken down plane doesn't mean you can do the same today if you haven't had to keep doing the same thing over the years to keep the skills active.

I can still perform skills I learnt years ago, as I am sure most people can. I may not be as good at them, but I can still perform them to a satisfactory standard.

Unlike those who never learnt the skill in the first place. That is one of the differences between skills & knowledge.

And -

Experience is only relevant if you keep it updated.

Experience doesn't get 'updated' - it just is. Any 'updating' is new experience, which is added to the experience pool the individual already has. It is knowledge, once again, that needs to be constantly updated.

[The Green Goblin]

Just shot himself in the foot!

At least GA is starting to recover to decent salaries now these wannabes hit the airlines instead of raping GA.

Hell you can earn more living in Alice flying a piston twin than you can flying A320s for Jetstar NZ.

Go Figure?

[PhoenixNZ]

If I can find a good GA job over the ditch then thats cool. Again, the main reason I'm going for the cadets program is simply a lack of options.

My point all along has never been that the cadet programs are the best things for aviation. Simply that its unfair to abuse the cadets for taking up one of the only options currently around for them.

[toolish]

Pheonix
I agree nobody should be abusing the cadets, play the man not the ball.
We should be and are fighting the company on the issue but I need to tell you Pheonix all you posts are doing is bringing the focus back to the ball.

Old versus new cadet programs that is where the problem is
Old- With established reputable airline with a rigourous C&T system where properly screened and suitable candidates are accepted, get trained properly, get experience(industry placement), learn their craft like a sponge from the third seat.

New- With a low cost airline with no resources available(they cost too much) with a C&T system under pressure and relatively inexperienced churning out ANYONE with a cheque book and a pulse to sit in the RHS and put with relatively inexperienced, under resourced, overworked, disengaged Captains whose only priority is to ensure the cadet doesn't f%^k up (which the company would hide anyway because the cadets are such a good product) an try to save his job (because we all know who the fall guy will be).

That is the problem, DO YOU GET IT YET

[PhoenixNZ]

I always understood the pilots problem toolish. The pilots on the other hand never seem to understand the cadets problem.

$100k debt with very few job prospects, the only opportunities are in jobs where established people will hate you even though your only doing the best you can to be the best that you can be in the industry you want to be in.

The grass isn't much greener on this side of the fence.

[Keg]

Straw man alert

My point all along has never been that the cadet programs are the best things for aviation. Simply that its unfair to abuse the cadets for taking up one of the only options currently around for them.

Bzzz. Thank you for playing. It's NOT 'one of the only options currently around for them' at all. The 'abuse' that you reckon it is- which it's not- is people who have been around for a while trying to tell you that it's NOT the only option around. There are other, better options that ultimately will serve you more effectively in the medium to long term.

So you're wrong on two counts.
1. It's not the only option
2. You're not being abused, you're being given information that you don't agree with and don't want to see. That you consider it abuse would cause me concern as to how effectively you can operate in a multi crew situation because there are going to be many times in your career that you get told that you're wrong and operating on flawed assumption regarding a particular thing. If you're as thin skinned on the flight deck as you are on PPRUNE then you're not going to have a particularly enjoyable career.

The pilots on the other hand never seem to understand the cadets problem.

$100k debt with very few job prospects, the only opportunities are in jobs where established people will hate you.....

Oh Puh-lease. Cry me a freaking river. You don't think some of us haven't started our careers carrying debts? You don't think some of us haven't started out careers with low experience levels? You really are deluding yourself. Take the blinkers off.

[porch monkey]

No skills left after 10 years or so? Read Sullenbergers book? If you haven't, I suggest strongly that you do. That's what experience AND training get you.

[Anthill]

PNZ, I have been sitting here on the by-lines watching the development of this thread for some time now. It is plain that you need some advice here on the nature of the industry and how it works. As you are at the 'pre-cadet' phase of your career, you have no industry experience on which to back up your career decisions. This forum can provide some free advice to you from many who have been in the industry a long time. Whether you take it or not is up to you.

There are some who will hold it against you personally for taking a cadetship. I personally wont because I am forgiving and understand that the lure of a jet job is overwhelming to those who aspire to fly. I was there once, too. However, in my career (21 years in airlines, 5 years in GA and 4 years private flying before that), I have never paid for a heavy aircraft type rating (3 Fokker and 4 Boeing). What I and other Training and Check staff wont forgive is professional inability.

I have seen many who have gained employment at VB and J*who did pay for their type rating. I dont hold that against them. The fact that I did not tick the box on the on-line employment forms that said 'I am prepared to pay for my own type rating prior to employment.'. meant that I did not ever recieve the nice e-mail from J* or Virgin Blue requesting my presence for an interview. However, there are plenty of employers who recognise that they need to pay for quality staff, such as Vaustralia where I now work on the B777 (type rating supplied by company and salary above that of a comparable position at J*). You can find these emplyers, too, but you will need some experience to justify your employment by them. Go and get it in GA.

My objection to the J* cadetship is twofold. Firstly, it is a really, very bad deal. The contract is all in the employers favour at you can so easily be put to a profound financial and career disadvantage. You will be literally selling your soul to buy into this. I can see how easily this can end in bankrupcy for anyone who signs up for this and in circumstances that are through no fault of their own whatsoever(I have already given advice to a young friend of my daughter regarding this - he has just been accepted into the ADF ).

The second objection is the quality of the training. Traditional cadetships have the employer paying for the training. As they needed a high quality product at the end, they subjected candidates to rigourous assement prior to selection of cadet pilots. Examples of this are BOAC/BA, BEA, Lufthansa, Vietnam Airlines. QF, RAAF, USN, JAL etc etc. In each instance, the successful candidate was typically a straight 'A' student, 120+ IQ, demonstrated teamwork skills, athletic and healthy, psychometric and cognitive skills in the top 3%. In each case, cadets either spent years as a SO or go on a hands on type aeroplane where stick-and-rudder skills are honed. These organisations got the best staff because they were willing to pay for it. The current employment paradigim is that if you have money, you can buy a job. The primary implication of here is that of a latent safey threat. To quote E.K. Gahn's 'Fate is the Hunter' - "in this game, we play for keeps". Our operating environment is intollerant of any incapacity, inability or neglect. We need the right people with the right attitudes and the right skills.

There is no fast track to this last attribute of skills. They come with an amalgam of time, experience and personal application. You will learn more in a GA environment than you will taking a 'crash' course in being an airline pilot. You will be better paid for it, too. Furthermore you will have greater career flexibility should there be an industrial upheaval that puts you out in the street (and I would say that on historical grounds that there is a VERY good chance that this will happen at some stage in your career).

I can see how tempting the J* cadetship appears, but the contract sucks. You have to look at any employment scenario as a business deal. And this one stinks to high heaven! The fault isn't with you, it's with the emplyers who make demands that pilots take the financial burden for training. It is a way to subsidise the airline's operation. Hopefully, the rest of the industry will follow the example set by the VA B777 long haul operation and pay for rating will become a thing of the past.