Jetstar legal action update
I'm more than happy to do the hard yards to get into a job but I will never do something thats going to put my family in undue hardship just for the sake of posterity.
welcome to the Jetstar cadetship!On a side note you will not work initially in NZ. You dont have the required experience
This means you will have to come across to Australia to get 500 hours experience.
Luckily Australian Pilots were so outraged over the Jetstar cadet programs and contracts we had a senate enquiry. The results recommended a minimum of an ATPL (1500 hours) to work as a first officer on jet aircraft.
The unions were also involved. Now cadets are required to be on the EBA, and their training bond has been reduced along with paying less for the program.
This has basically caused cadets to become more expensive the direct entry guys. Coupled with the extra sectors to get them up to speed, and the recent 'incidents' I think the whole thing will die a quick death. Sucks if you're caught in the middle of it after paying the sharks.
As for Jetstar, they are now getting 'free' highly experienced Pilots from Qantas which will fulfill their recruitment needs for the short term.
As for the 'free' bit, who do yo think is paying for the cost of retraining and endorsements? It won't be Jetstar!
QLink is much better than JQ cadet scheme.
As McGrath said,
Of all the trainee/cadet schemes out there, it seems to be the only one with a decent outlook.
Read all you can about each option and make a choice, just don't be lured by a f$&King jet, you'll fly one eventually!
As McGrath said,
- EBA
- ICUS to fulfill ATLP req (It takes time, but gives you plenty of time to learn along the way too)
- Dash endo is via bond
- Trainee cost is repaid via bond (but you only get 3/4 back I believe)
Of all the trainee/cadet schemes out there, it seems to be the only one with a decent outlook.
Read all you can about each option and make a choice, just don't be lured by a f$&King jet, you'll fly one eventually!
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It never was about flying a Jet.
It was about flying and getting money for it. More money than GA would even be offering for my level of experience.
The QLink one looks good, only trouble I can see is that I wont have Aus ATPL passes, only NZ ones.
It was about flying and getting money for it. More money than GA would even be offering for my level of experience.
The QLink one looks good, only trouble I can see is that I wont have Aus ATPL passes, only NZ ones.
You've got a year to go get them!
I'd suggest checking out advanced flight theory in QLD. 6 week course and it will be a breeze if you're fresh from NZ theory. In fact, don't even bother with the NZ ones. Get your CPL, convert your licence in Australia, do the Australian ATPL subjects and once you can hold an Australian ATPL you'll be able to get one issued on the basis in NZ too. Head north, build some command time and join the ranks of guys who can call themselves Pilots. Take your Mrs and kids. I'm sure it will be an adventure for them too. Kununurra 2004 was a good place to be (hey fellas)....
As for more money? Puleeeease.... You can get 65k driving a piston twin now (I was getting just under 50K in 2006 driving piston twins). You'll also get about 95k-110k to be a turboprop skipper these days which is looking like a better career than a low cost carrier earning less than 50k after paying for your endorsement (Bras, dash etc)
Most guys are taking pay cuts to fly jets for airlines. In fact a turboprop FO is doing better than a Jetstar NZ FO. They also have their training covered and are paid from day 1 of their training.
Hell you will be earning a similar take home pay flying as a single engine VFR Pilot in Australia as you will a Jetstar FO in NZ. Play the exchange rate and it's even better (circa 30%).
Don't get ripped off.
I'd suggest checking out advanced flight theory in QLD. 6 week course and it will be a breeze if you're fresh from NZ theory. In fact, don't even bother with the NZ ones. Get your CPL, convert your licence in Australia, do the Australian ATPL subjects and once you can hold an Australian ATPL you'll be able to get one issued on the basis in NZ too. Head north, build some command time and join the ranks of guys who can call themselves Pilots. Take your Mrs and kids. I'm sure it will be an adventure for them too. Kununurra 2004 was a good place to be (hey fellas)....
As for more money? Puleeeease.... You can get 65k driving a piston twin now (I was getting just under 50K in 2006 driving piston twins). You'll also get about 95k-110k to be a turboprop skipper these days which is looking like a better career than a low cost carrier earning less than 50k after paying for your endorsement (Bras, dash etc)
Most guys are taking pay cuts to fly jets for airlines. In fact a turboprop FO is doing better than a Jetstar NZ FO. They also have their training covered and are paid from day 1 of their training.
Hell you will be earning a similar take home pay flying as a single engine VFR Pilot in Australia as you will a Jetstar FO in NZ. Play the exchange rate and it's even better (circa 30%).
Don't get ripped off.
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My NZ ATPL is part of my course which is student loan funded so I will be doing them regardless.
With NZ ATPL done it shouldn't I would hope take much to get my Aus ATPL theory. At the end of the day a plane is a plane in any country lol.
With NZ ATPL done it shouldn't I would hope take much to get my Aus ATPL theory. At the end of the day a plane is a plane in any country lol.
Your NZ ATPL subjects on your course will be absolutely useless as a cadet at Jetstar.
You'll be flying a VH rego and any future upgrade will require 500hrs multi command.
Have a serious think about your future!
You'll be flying a VH rego and any future upgrade will require 500hrs multi command.
Have a serious think about your future!
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FAIR WORK ACT 2009 (NO. 28, 2009) - SECT 206
Base rate of pay under an enterprise agreement must not be less than the modern award rate or the national minimum wage order rate etc. If an employee is covered by a modern award that is in operation
(1) If:
(a) an enterprise agreement applies to an employee; and
(b) a modern award that is in operation covers the employee;
the base rate of pay payable to the employee under the agreement (the agreement rate ) must not be less than the base rate of pay that would be payable to the employee under the modern award (the award rate ) if the modern award applied to the employee.
(2) If the agreement rate is less than the award rate, the agreement has effect in relation to the employee as if the agreement rate were equal to the award rate.
If an employer is required to pay an employee the national minimum wage etc.
Base rate of pay under an enterprise agreement must not be less than the modern award rate or the national minimum wage order rate etc. If an employee is covered by a modern award that is in operation
(1) If:
(a) an enterprise agreement applies to an employee; and
(b) a modern award that is in operation covers the employee;
the base rate of pay payable to the employee under the agreement (the agreement rate ) must not be less than the base rate of pay that would be payable to the employee under the modern award (the award rate ) if the modern award applied to the employee.
(2) If the agreement rate is less than the award rate, the agreement has effect in relation to the employee as if the agreement rate were equal to the award rate.
If an employer is required to pay an employee the national minimum wage etc.
Perhaps one for you Lawrie??
Last edited by The Kelpie; 23rd Sep 2011 at 03:15.
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Kelpie - what are you implying in quoting section 206? Are the rates agreed to between AFAP and J* lower than the Modern Award?
Clause 206 basically ensures the integrity of the "safety net", for instance if these FO are going to go on an enterprise agreement (which is happening) then this section ensures that when the better off overall test is applied that their pay can not be lower than the Modern Award at any point in time of the life of the agreement.
Clause 206 basically ensures the integrity of the "safety net", for instance if these FO are going to go on an enterprise agreement (which is happening) then this section ensures that when the better off overall test is applied that their pay can not be lower than the Modern Award at any point in time of the life of the agreement.
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ACT.
The better off overall test is a separate matter in order for FWA to approve the enterprise agreement.
This clause relates to the basic rate of pay and provides that the enterprise agreement cannot stipulate a lower basic rate of pay than the modern award. If it does, the
Modern Award rate together with the appropriate additions to pay Will prevail.
Basic Rate of Pay is not one of the flexible provisions allowed within the Modern Award.
As we all know the JFO does not exist under the modern award and therefore under the award, by definition, they are just classified as a FO operating a narrow bodied jet.
There is a substantial difference between the rate in the jetstar EBA and the Modern Award that would be aplicable to the guys.
As always my legal interpretation.
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The Kelpie
The better off overall test is a separate matter in order for FWA to approve the enterprise agreement.
This clause relates to the basic rate of pay and provides that the enterprise agreement cannot stipulate a lower basic rate of pay than the modern award. If it does, the
Modern Award rate together with the appropriate additions to pay Will prevail.
Basic Rate of Pay is not one of the flexible provisions allowed within the Modern Award.
As we all know the JFO does not exist under the modern award and therefore under the award, by definition, they are just classified as a FO operating a narrow bodied jet.
There is a substantial difference between the rate in the jetstar EBA and the Modern Award that would be aplicable to the guys.
As always my legal interpretation.
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The Kelpie
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To get a 'neutral cost agreement' given that Jetstar have to extinguish the cadet funding agreement and refund training monies paid to date??
Who knows??
I do know that the cadets are effectively part time so this may account for some of the difference.
Thats why i asked for Lawrie to possibly answer this one.
Who knows??
I do know that the cadets are effectively part time so this may account for some of the difference.
Thats why i asked for Lawrie to possibly answer this one.
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I've had another look at this issue and read the AFAP cadet deal in conjunction with the flexi-line arrangements and I calculate that the cadets have been potentially shortchanged by approximately $20,000 - $26,000 per annum based upon my understanding of section 206 of the Fair Work Act.
Essentially, according to my understanding the deal that has been struck is not compliant with the Fair Work Act. No wonder that JQ management Snapped Afap's hand off and rushed everything through when the deal was being struck!!
Unfortunately for management the correct way to deal with this situation is for the salary within the agreement to be corrected in line with the Act.
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The Kelpie
Essentially, according to my understanding the deal that has been struck is not compliant with the Fair Work Act. No wonder that JQ management Snapped Afap's hand off and rushed everything through when the deal was being struck!!
Unfortunately for management the correct way to deal with this situation is for the salary within the agreement to be corrected in line with the Act.
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The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 23rd Sep 2011 at 07:36.
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Kelpie
The position is that the cadets were brought back under the coverage of the existing EBA. The rates were established prior to the introduction of Fair Work and the minimums of the Air Pilots Award. You might also read the transition legislation in addition to the section quoted and you will find that the rate will not exceed the minimum prior to the expiry of the current agreement and the future agreement then is covered by the section you quote.
Note also that cadets do not have the ATPL experience requirements and stay on the JFO rate for a maximum of two years, then auto transition. Where experience level held go straight to level one F/O.
Further all parties agreed the position including the Qantas pilot group.
Hope this clears up the misunderstanding.
Lawrie Cox
AFAP
The position is that the cadets were brought back under the coverage of the existing EBA. The rates were established prior to the introduction of Fair Work and the minimums of the Air Pilots Award. You might also read the transition legislation in addition to the section quoted and you will find that the rate will not exceed the minimum prior to the expiry of the current agreement and the future agreement then is covered by the section you quote.
Note also that cadets do not have the ATPL experience requirements and stay on the JFO rate for a maximum of two years, then auto transition. Where experience level held go straight to level one F/O.
Further all parties agreed the position including the Qantas pilot group.
Hope this clears up the misunderstanding.
Lawrie Cox
AFAP
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Thanks for the reply Lawrie
True. But like it or not the Jetstar EBA is now considered under the FW (TP&CA) Act 2009 to be a transitional instrument and more particularly an 'agreement-based transitional instrument' and it is now dealt with under the transitional provisions legislation as you quite rightly point out.
You might want to verify that this is the case by seeking further legal opinions. There is a widely held legal view that whilst almost all of the provisions of the EBA must continue until expiry, and to the exclusion of the Modern Award, as of 1st January 2010 the provisions relating to base rate of pay similar to that of section 206 apply to all agreement-based transitional instrument covered parties (Schedule 9, Part 4, Paragraph 13 of the FWA Transitional Provisions etc Act). It is only during the 'bridging period' (1/1/09 - 1/1/10) defined by the Act that your understanding is appears to be correct.
(the Jetstar EBA is considered an agreement-based transitional instrument for the purposes of the Fair Work Act)
I acknowledge this is the case but this is of absolutely no relevance to the establishment of the minimum base rate of pay under the Modern Award since the Air Pilots Award does not stipulate that an ATPL licence is a pre-requisite to be paid the rate for a narrow bodied aircraft together with the appropriate additions to salary under Schedule B. In fact under the modern award the requirement by the employer to hold an ATPL licence should attract a further addition of $4,146.58 to the minimum FTE salary quoted below.
Under the Modern Award I calculate the minimum salary for a First Officer flying a narrow body aircraft with additions for Turbo Jet and Instrument Rating to be $84,561.16. This is minimum Full Time Equivalent (FTE) salary that should be applied to the JFO role on the Jetstar EBA operating as a Transitional Instrument.
Under the Flexi-Line arrangements the FTE for a JFO is $57,118 as the agreement provides for a pro-rata calculation to be made. Based on a notional roster of 56 hours their salary, save for the conditional provision of a minimum salary would be much less. Whilst the flexi line arrangements provide that the cadet will receive the above figure as an annual minimum regardless of the number of hours flown this is caveated on the basis that the cadet must fly 'all duties as directed' to qualify for this minimum payment. Given that the 56 hours under the flexi-line agreement is purely notional i would expect management will be rostering a much higher number of hours for cadets (which they cannot refuse according to the contract to qualify for the min salary) to get the maximum value out of the 57k paid to the cadets. Why will management do this? - because it will not necessarily cost them a cent more in Extra Flying Allowance. This is to the detriment Of all level 1 and above FOs.
And? Assuming there is a different understanding of the Act, Since when can agreeing parties opt out of the laws of the land? Further what allows an employer to attempt to use the agreement of the parties to indemnify itself against the requirements of the Fair Work Act?
Finally Lawrie you previously said:
Based on the newsletters you have published and the seemingly fundamental problems with the Cadet deal unfortunately I have to question whether this is indeed the case. Time to change your legal advisors I think!!
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The Kelpie
The position is that the cadets were brought back under the coverage of the existing EBA. The rates were established prior to the introduction of Fair Work and the minimums of the Air Pilots Award.
You might also read the transition legislation in addition to the section quoted and you will find that the rate will not exceed the minimum prior to the expiry of the current agreement and the future agreement then is covered by the section you quote.
(the Jetstar EBA is considered an agreement-based transitional instrument for the purposes of the Fair Work Act)
Note also that cadets do not have the ATPL experience requirements and stay on the JFO rate for a maximum of two years, then auto transition. Where experience level held go straight to level one F/O.
Under the Modern Award I calculate the minimum salary for a First Officer flying a narrow body aircraft with additions for Turbo Jet and Instrument Rating to be $84,561.16. This is minimum Full Time Equivalent (FTE) salary that should be applied to the JFO role on the Jetstar EBA operating as a Transitional Instrument.
Under the Flexi-Line arrangements the FTE for a JFO is $57,118 as the agreement provides for a pro-rata calculation to be made. Based on a notional roster of 56 hours their salary, save for the conditional provision of a minimum salary would be much less. Whilst the flexi line arrangements provide that the cadet will receive the above figure as an annual minimum regardless of the number of hours flown this is caveated on the basis that the cadet must fly 'all duties as directed' to qualify for this minimum payment. Given that the 56 hours under the flexi-line agreement is purely notional i would expect management will be rostering a much higher number of hours for cadets (which they cannot refuse according to the contract to qualify for the min salary) to get the maximum value out of the 57k paid to the cadets. Why will management do this? - because it will not necessarily cost them a cent more in Extra Flying Allowance. This is to the detriment Of all level 1 and above FOs.
Further all parties agreed the position including the Qantas pilot group.
Finally Lawrie you previously said:
Kelpie you mistake the fact that the Federation is industrial relations (IR) not public relations (PR) or spin, the documents are our newsletters and the work of the Jetstar Pilot reps.
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The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 24th Sep 2011 at 22:56.
Lawrie Cox wrote :
Are you where Bruce Buchanan gets his "Qantas Pilot's Union" line from when referring to AIPA ? ? ?
Last time I checked, AIPA was the chosen industrial association of around 65% of Jetstar Pilots.
Further all parties agreed the position including the Qantas pilot group.
Last time I checked, AIPA was the chosen industrial association of around 65% of Jetstar Pilots.
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Last time I checked, AIPA was the chosen industrial association of around 65% of Jetstar Pilots.
And how many are members of both unions? Plenty more than 35% of J* pilots are AFAP members.
One of my mates is a J* A320 captain and he's telling me that J* pilots who joined AIPA last year are pretty disillusioned with them and are now leaving AIPA to join the AFAP.
Something about Lots of talk, lots of spin, AIPA are doing this, AIPA are doing that, but zilch when it comes down to actually doing anything...
DIVOSH!