Jetstar legal action update
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the UK first it was the low cost carrier. Then it was pay for your endorsement. Then it was pay a ****load of money for a cadetship, then pay for your endorsement. (meanwhile all the wages where coming down as supply of pilots rose).
It has finally culminated in pay for your cadetship, pay for your endorsement, pay for 500 hours line training along with your own accommodation at outports.
Guys are doing this because they think there is a pot of gold waiting for them at emirates if they do.
So basically unless you're in a legacy carrier in Europe, it is pretty hard to get an FO position that pays the bills at all. In fact, you pay to fly the aircraft!
All this because "I had a wife and kids, and needed to get ahead". Problem is there is always someone else willing to go lower as can be attested to the rot in Europe.
NZ will be next. Just wait till the boffins work out how much you lot are prepared to pay for 500 hours line training!
Living the dream.
It has finally culminated in pay for your cadetship, pay for your endorsement, pay for 500 hours line training along with your own accommodation at outports.
Guys are doing this because they think there is a pot of gold waiting for them at emirates if they do.
So basically unless you're in a legacy carrier in Europe, it is pretty hard to get an FO position that pays the bills at all. In fact, you pay to fly the aircraft!
All this because "I had a wife and kids, and needed to get ahead". Problem is there is always someone else willing to go lower as can be attested to the rot in Europe.
NZ will be next. Just wait till the boffins work out how much you lot are prepared to pay for 500 hours line training!
Living the dream.
So what do the current FOs in NZ have to worry about when all this has done so far is impacted on new pilots to airlines.
If you belonged to a union and stopped thinking about yourself for 5 min you'd know the answer to that.
You guys are all responsible for yourselves. Your all saying I'm just being selfish but if I dont look out for me then who will? Something tells me none of you are any different. Your all looking at how these cadet schemes will affect YOU. Lets be honest, you wouldn't care if it wasn't affecting YOU. The difference is that there are lots of the YOUs out there that you can band together with.
Me on the otherhand, I'm on my own so I'm just looking out for me.
The reason you are happy with 60k sheep shagger, is you are not a Pilot. You have not learnt your craft, you have no experience, and nothing to give.
Once you have a thing called experience and can call yourself a Pilot, you will realize your skills are worth far more than 60k.
You will then get pissed off when guys like you offer to prostitute themselves for next to nothing, have no real skills and pretty much dumb down and de skill the profession.
Would you be happy having your family driven across NZ by a 17 year old who just got his/her drivers licence at night in poor weather? Or would you offer to drive instead
Once you have a thing called experience and can call yourself a Pilot, you will realize your skills are worth far more than 60k.
You will then get pissed off when guys like you offer to prostitute themselves for next to nothing, have no real skills and pretty much dumb down and de skill the profession.
Would you be happy having your family driven across NZ by a 17 year old who just got his/her drivers licence at night in poor weather? Or would you offer to drive instead
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You will then get pissed off when guys like you offer to prostitute themselves for next to nothing, have no real skills and pretty much dumb down and de skill the profession.
Can you really blame a 17 year old for wanting to drive? Isn't it ulitmately the car owners job to ensure that the drivers is up for the job.
Thats my whole point here folks. Your blaming the cadets for taking what is realistically a great offer for someone of our level of experience. When in fact its QF/JQ who are giving us the jobs in the first place.
It has had a huge impact on existing FOs.
The FOs became Captains and bit their tongues.
Many potential Pilots could not afford to get into the industry due to the high cost of entry.
Those with experience went overseas and are now expats as they can't afford t work from home.
Your future ain't in NZ mate. Get used to speaking Arabic or mandarin if you ever want a return on what you think you're worth.
Pity though, cause guys like you will head over there too dragging those T&Cs down with them.
Like the Jetstar group contract or the substandard rishworth Jetstar contract. If not enough guys apply, the condition improve until they get their numbers. If no one applied to the cadetship, it will be modified to attract more applicants.
Unfortunately you're too short sighted to see it.
The FOs became Captains and bit their tongues.
Many potential Pilots could not afford to get into the industry due to the high cost of entry.
Those with experience went overseas and are now expats as they can't afford t work from home.
Your future ain't in NZ mate. Get used to speaking Arabic or mandarin if you ever want a return on what you think you're worth.
Pity though, cause guys like you will head over there too dragging those T&Cs down with them.
Like the Jetstar group contract or the substandard rishworth Jetstar contract. If not enough guys apply, the condition improve until they get their numbers. If no one applied to the cadetship, it will be modified to attract more applicants.
Unfortunately you're too short sighted to see it.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: south pacific vagrant
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Me on the otherhand, I'm on my own so I'm just looking out for me
This is like shooting like fish in a barrel.
Here's a tip. Save yourself and your innocent family about 7 years of shaftings from Jetstar (about the time it'll take for you to finally pull the pin) and go do that Degree.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nothing changes, obviously...
The really sad part about PhoenixNZ's contribution to this thread is that he pretty much had the same conversation about a month or two ago. I'm not sure why he'd think that anyone would have changed their mind about him or the attitude that he's shown.
As I posted in that previous thread, if the J* cadetship is the financially best option for a Kiwi to get his/her aviation career, then I'd have taken a different career path.
Phoenix, just remember, you chose to get into this profession. Remember that in 6 years time when your contract isn't renewed because the crop of cadets are willing to do it for less than you.
DIVOSH!
As I posted in that previous thread, if the J* cadetship is the financially best option for a Kiwi to get his/her aviation career, then I'd have taken a different career path.
Phoenix, just remember, you chose to get into this profession. Remember that in 6 years time when your contract isn't renewed because the crop of cadets are willing to do it for less than you.
DIVOSH!
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like the Jetstar group contract or the substandard rishworth Jetstar contract. If not enough guys apply, the condition improve until they get their numbers. If no one applied to the cadetship, it will be modified to attract more applicants
I totally agree that if no one applied then they would have to change it. But whats the likelyhood that your going to convince everyone who wants to be a pilot not to apply?
So instead, why dont the existing drivers say "We aren't willing to fly with anyone who has gone through the cadets program as they are unsafe to fly with". You guys are the ones with the numbers and the power. I have no power as an individual to change anything in the industry, you guys do. You want something changed, then get out there and change it.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The really sad part about PhoenixNZ's contribution to this thread is that he pretty much had the same conversation about a month or two ago. I'm not sure why he'd think that anyone would have changed their mind about him or the attitude that he's shown.
As I posted in that previous thread, if the J* cadetship is the financially best option for a Kiwi to get his/her aviation career, then I'd have taken a different career path.
Phoenix, just remember, you chose to get into this profession. Remember that in 6 years time when your contract isn't renewed because the crop of cadets are willing to do it for less than you.
As I posted in that previous thread, if the J* cadetship is the financially best option for a Kiwi to get his/her aviation career, then I'd have taken a different career path.
Phoenix, just remember, you chose to get into this profession. Remember that in 6 years time when your contract isn't renewed because the crop of cadets are willing to do it for less than you.
Trust me sheepshagger, we would all love to shun the programs and refuse fly with anyone involved with it.
Check Captains would love to refuse to line train them.
Unfortunately this is called illegal industrial action. Individuals are liable for financial damages to the company.
Meanwhile everyone grits their teeth and gets on with it. This is why in Australia there has been a lot of court action, senate enquiries and a somewhat unified pilot body.
Check Captains would love to refuse to line train them.
Unfortunately this is called illegal industrial action. Individuals are liable for financial damages to the company.
Meanwhile everyone grits their teeth and gets on with it. This is why in Australia there has been a lot of court action, senate enquiries and a somewhat unified pilot body.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The real world:
Who has the problem: Existing pilots
Who is responsible for doing something about it: Existing pilots
The existing pilots world:
Who has the problem: Existing pilots
Who is responsible for doing something about it: Everyone else
Its the cadets who miss out under you guys solution. Cadets get punished for doing nothing more than taking the best opportunity available at the time.
And I would bet a lot of money that if ANY of you were in the same position today that you would be applying right along side me.
Also no one as yet has shown any sort of proof that cadet schemes have negatively impacted aviation as a whole. Also no one as yet has given any explanation of how a cadets scheme is any different to any other apprenticeship type program.
From my seat here: A bunch of old pilots who hate change for the sake of change. Well times are changing peoples, change with them or be left behind. Those are the choices.
Who has the problem: Existing pilots
Who is responsible for doing something about it: Existing pilots
The existing pilots world:
Who has the problem: Existing pilots
Who is responsible for doing something about it: Everyone else
Its the cadets who miss out under you guys solution. Cadets get punished for doing nothing more than taking the best opportunity available at the time.
And I would bet a lot of money that if ANY of you were in the same position today that you would be applying right along side me.
Also no one as yet has shown any sort of proof that cadet schemes have negatively impacted aviation as a whole. Also no one as yet has given any explanation of how a cadets scheme is any different to any other apprenticeship type program.
From my seat here: A bunch of old pilots who hate change for the sake of change. Well times are changing peoples, change with them or be left behind. Those are the choices.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also I'll mention that this whole thread started because of the news that the JQ cadets would be getting similar conditions now to standard F/Os. They can now only be used and abused for two years.
So its win/win for pilots/cadets. The cadets get better conditions and the pilots aren't being priced out of a job.
It may mean that JQ stops getting cadets but that would in part depend on exactly why the program came about in the first place. If it was purely a cost cutting measure then that may not work any more. However if it was partially due to difficulty recruiting enough pilots so they wanted to make it easier then that should continue.
Time shall tell.
Can't see a belt without hitting below it? What are you doing on a forum if you dont want to have an open exchange of ideas.
So its win/win for pilots/cadets. The cadets get better conditions and the pilots aren't being priced out of a job.
It may mean that JQ stops getting cadets but that would in part depend on exactly why the program came about in the first place. If it was purely a cost cutting measure then that may not work any more. However if it was partially due to difficulty recruiting enough pilots so they wanted to make it easier then that should continue.
Time shall tell.
Bruce, haven't you got a Japanses Airline to kickstart?
I think you should stop wasting time stirring up the troops and get back to work
I think you should stop wasting time stirring up the troops and get back to work
Nunc est bibendum
why dont the existing drivers say "We aren't willing to fly with anyone who has gone through the cadets program as they are unsafe to fly with".
So now you owe a huge training debt and aren't even being paid the pittance you were 'happy' to accept. You'd better hope you're an ace and don't find yourself in that situation.
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The Roman leader Julius Caesar recorded the earliest known version of this proverb, 'Experience is the teacher of all things,'
PNZ... I think you will find this out the hard way.
The goo gobbler.... you are an idiot...... please continue.
PNZ... I think you will find this out the hard way.
The goo gobbler.... you are an idiot...... please continue.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: tassie
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or you can do what some JQ captains are doing, not let them have a sector.
I have heard a JQ Captain nearly lost his job due to a cadet fark up, visual approach I believe (on 34 into MEL I think).....
I have heard a JQ Captain nearly lost his job due to a cadet fark up, visual approach I believe (on 34 into MEL I think).....
Nunc est bibendum
You'd better hope you're an ace and don't find yourself in that situation.
Muff, twas the example I was thinking of. Knew it was MEL but hadn't heard specifics.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I gotta say that you're great entertainment for a Sunday night Phoenix.
In Australia! Not in NZ! Your T&C's will still be a **** sandwich! Because of people like you.
Disagree. Plenty of people on this thread (and on the other one) showed you how this kind of cadet scheme has resulted in lowered T&C's. It's just that you refused to believe it because it didn't fit in with your viewpoint.
(Note, I'm talking about the J* "indentured labour" cadet scheme, as opposed to the traditional QF/CX cadet schemes that paid their cadets good money).
DIVOSH!
P.S. I'm not sure how comparing yourself to the good Dr. King has much relevance to this thread...
Also I'll mention that this whole thread started because of the news that the JQ cadets would be getting similar conditions now to standard F/Os. They can now only be used and abused for two years.
So its win/win for pilots/cadets. The cadets get better conditions and the pilots aren't being priced out of a job.
So its win/win for pilots/cadets. The cadets get better conditions and the pilots aren't being priced out of a job.
Also no one as yet has shown any sort of proof that cadet schemes have negatively impacted aviation as a whole.
(Note, I'm talking about the J* "indentured labour" cadet scheme, as opposed to the traditional QF/CX cadet schemes that paid their cadets good money).
DIVOSH!
P.S. I'm not sure how comparing yourself to the good Dr. King has much relevance to this thread...
waren9, close old mate, but G.G. By Jove, I think you've got it!
I've just had a moment of clarity chaps. I thought I had heard some of PNZ's pontifications somewhere else.
It was with an ABC Journalist!
Most real pilots would deny that individual 02. Maybe time to do the same here.
I've just had a moment of clarity chaps. I thought I had heard some of PNZ's pontifications somewhere else.
It was with an ABC Journalist!
Most real pilots would deny that individual 02. Maybe time to do the same here.