Jetstar legal action update
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Phoenix
There is not much more that i can add by way of advice that hasn't already been proffered by many pilots with years and years of experience in the game. What I will say is listen, you are not being abused.That would be very easy to do given the current highly charged and emotive atmosphere that we are currently experiencing within the QF Group.
I do empathise with you to a degree and you have expressed and argued your stance on this board with a certain amount of maturity which implies to me you are a reasonably imtelligent bloke. Nobody wants to stand in your way of chasing a career in aviation. But in my opinion you (and other JQ cadets) are being used as pawns by a despicable management group who after they have finished with you will toss you aside like yesterdays rubbish.
You simply cannot trust them or believe that they are interested in your career. You are being used to undermine Pilots T & C's I promise you that is the case.
There was an earlier poster who used the saying "short termitis" and you should really consider this. Do you want to be a good pilot or a factory made robot? What if you get to Jetstar and suddenly you find out that you are not cut out for the lifestyle, **** money or worse still Jetstar doesn't like you. To bad you have gone all in on your first hand, and that could hurt.
My nephew attends a private school here in Sydney in Year 11, Jetstar have been at every careers day pushing hard, much to my nephews dissapointment I have given him and his parents the same advice. Like you it is very difficult to convince him this is not the right way forward for him.
Mate I know it is a bugger of a place to be in and all I ask of you is to rather than dismiss the advice from very very experienced aviation professionals, listen, research, research some more and make a decision based on reality rather than emotion or excitement at flying a jet.
As has been said on here many times before if you really want it and are prepared to sacrifice, work hard and develop your skills as a pilot you will make it. Life wasn't meant to be easy and I know from my own experience being an airline pilot wasn't meant to be easy.
There is not much more that i can add by way of advice that hasn't already been proffered by many pilots with years and years of experience in the game. What I will say is listen, you are not being abused.That would be very easy to do given the current highly charged and emotive atmosphere that we are currently experiencing within the QF Group.
I do empathise with you to a degree and you have expressed and argued your stance on this board with a certain amount of maturity which implies to me you are a reasonably imtelligent bloke. Nobody wants to stand in your way of chasing a career in aviation. But in my opinion you (and other JQ cadets) are being used as pawns by a despicable management group who after they have finished with you will toss you aside like yesterdays rubbish.
You simply cannot trust them or believe that they are interested in your career. You are being used to undermine Pilots T & C's I promise you that is the case.
There was an earlier poster who used the saying "short termitis" and you should really consider this. Do you want to be a good pilot or a factory made robot? What if you get to Jetstar and suddenly you find out that you are not cut out for the lifestyle, **** money or worse still Jetstar doesn't like you. To bad you have gone all in on your first hand, and that could hurt.
My nephew attends a private school here in Sydney in Year 11, Jetstar have been at every careers day pushing hard, much to my nephews dissapointment I have given him and his parents the same advice. Like you it is very difficult to convince him this is not the right way forward for him.
Mate I know it is a bugger of a place to be in and all I ask of you is to rather than dismiss the advice from very very experienced aviation professionals, listen, research, research some more and make a decision based on reality rather than emotion or excitement at flying a jet.
As has been said on here many times before if you really want it and are prepared to sacrifice, work hard and develop your skills as a pilot you will make it. Life wasn't meant to be easy and I know from my own experience being an airline pilot wasn't meant to be easy.
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@Keg
Cadets have repeatedly earlier in this thread been referred to as scabs, sellouts and told they only get what they deserve if something goes wrong. Thats being abused. Thats what I object to.
I've personally been referred to as being HR or management, which in the context of this discussion is certainly not meant as a term of endearment. All because I have a different perspective/point of view than the others.
@Anthill and adsyj
Thanks for your well thought out and articulated posts. I'm by no means going into any programs such as the cadet program with blinders on. Ideally I'd love to find a good GA job flying a twin for two years before I start moving into a more airline based environment because I do think there is benefit to starting smaller and moving upwards.
It will all at the end of the day be based on whats available. I'm yet to find any website that advertises NZ pilot jobs so either there just aren't any available or they recruit through other means. If your aware of any I'd love a link.
Ultimately I'd rather be a JQ cadet than unemployed and not flying for a year waiting for a GA job to come around.
Cheers
Phoenix
Cadets have repeatedly earlier in this thread been referred to as scabs, sellouts and told they only get what they deserve if something goes wrong. Thats being abused. Thats what I object to.
I've personally been referred to as being HR or management, which in the context of this discussion is certainly not meant as a term of endearment. All because I have a different perspective/point of view than the others.
@Anthill and adsyj
Thanks for your well thought out and articulated posts. I'm by no means going into any programs such as the cadet program with blinders on. Ideally I'd love to find a good GA job flying a twin for two years before I start moving into a more airline based environment because I do think there is benefit to starting smaller and moving upwards.
It will all at the end of the day be based on whats available. I'm yet to find any website that advertises NZ pilot jobs so either there just aren't any available or they recruit through other means. If your aware of any I'd love a link.
Ultimately I'd rather be a JQ cadet than unemployed and not flying for a year waiting for a GA job to come around.
Cheers
Phoenix
Ideally I'd love to find a good GA job flying a twin for two years before I start moving into a more airline based environment because I do think there is benefit to starting smaller and moving upwards.
You will not be let anywhere near a piston twin until you have a least a 1000 hours of experience under your belt. This will take a minimum of two years to achieve.
Thinking back to myself as a green CPL it was a huge learning curve to operate a single engine aircraft as a charter Pilot. The amount of stuff ups and errors of judgement was quite scary looking back with hindsight.
I'd hate to be doing that with a couple of hundred soul behind me.....
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The issue still comes back to the availability of jobs. As you pointed out GG cadet schemes mean less of those GA jobs being available. If the jobs aren't there, how do you get them to start out with.
Its a bit unreasonable to expect cadets to be unemployed waiting for a job when there is one in the industry that they can actually get into.
Its a bit unreasonable to expect cadets to be unemployed waiting for a job when there is one in the industry that they can actually get into.
I think the new definition of ironic is: "Jetstar pilots complaining about someone undercutting their job and profession."
The Don
The Don
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GG - Any good website to keep an eye on for these jobs?
I've found Australian Federation of Air Pilots - AFAP - Pilot Jobs however I'm yet to find a single job on there thats suitable for a 250 hour CPL unless they have an instructor rating.
I've found Australian Federation of Air Pilots - AFAP - Pilot Jobs however I'm yet to find a single job on there thats suitable for a 250 hour CPL unless they have an instructor rating.
Last edited by PhoenixNZ; 13th Sep 2011 at 09:03.
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You will not be let anywhere near a piston twin until you have a least a 1000 hours of experience under your belt
PhoenixNZ, you will probably have to move to OZ to get a GA job, if you decide to change direction & go that way. Job's in NZ are few & far between. They always have been & probably always will be.
www.afap.org.au
Do a search on pprune for a thread called information regarding the top end. Lots of info and hopefully it will change your life.
When you sign up to be a pilot, you are signing up for a lifestyle with the good and the bad.
It was never going to be easy and there are no shortcuts without huge catches. Going the GA route you can pick your airline and take your skills where they are rewarded and remunerated accordingly (just like airline management do shock horror!)
Do a search on pprune for a thread called information regarding the top end. Lots of info and hopefully it will change your life.
When you sign up to be a pilot, you are signing up for a lifestyle with the good and the bad.
It was never going to be easy and there are no shortcuts without huge catches. Going the GA route you can pick your airline and take your skills where they are rewarded and remunerated accordingly (just like airline management do shock horror!)
Ultimately I'd rather be a JQ cadet than unemployed and not flying for a year waiting for a GA job to come around.
You haven't even got the patience to wait only 1 year and do something else such as stack shelves in Coles whilst waiting for that GA job ?
How about waiting for up to 5 years, like some people have done ?
But persistence and hard work pays off, obviously you lack these qualities and you are just looking for a quick short cut to the top.
Management are exploiting people like you to bring down the terms and conditions for the whole industry. Thanks mate.
To be honest, GA flying is some of the best flying you will ever do and its a pity you will miss out on it. If only GA paid as much as the airlines did, many airline pilots would probably go back to it
I'm yet to find any website that advertises NZ pilot jobs so either there just aren't any available or they recruit through other means.
This is all part of the fun actually and you will back on it one day with very fond memories, though it might not seem like fun at the time.
Last edited by John Citizen; 13th Sep 2011 at 09:59.
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I have no issue with traditional cadetships per-se, nor do I believe in GA for GA's sake; But for anyone to justify a specious self funded cadetship as being their only option conveys an image of lazyness and naivety.
I've met lots of self funded cadets over the years in a few different countries and on a few different aircraft types. Every one of them to a tee thought they'd found a genious method of climbing that slippery pole faster than the the sucker who started in GA. Every one of them had a master plan to get some quick time and bugger off to greener pastures. Quite a few ended up unemployed for a number of reasons (economic downturn, company restructure, political expedience, pissed off the wrong guy) And every one of those to a tee discovered the unempoyability that comes with that awesome endorsement that has to be paid off, low TT and no Command time. A few reconciled themselves to a career in the right hand seat. I recall gaining a command over one such individual and I'll never forget the look on the guys face after the relevant management pilot explained to him (slowly) that the company had neither the spare resources (Training Captain) nor the inclination at that time to give him the required ICUS. Bitter? you bet. But he had nowhere to go. He'd screwed himself with a greasy pole cadetship.
I've met lots of self funded cadets over the years in a few different countries and on a few different aircraft types. Every one of them to a tee thought they'd found a genious method of climbing that slippery pole faster than the the sucker who started in GA. Every one of them had a master plan to get some quick time and bugger off to greener pastures. Quite a few ended up unemployed for a number of reasons (economic downturn, company restructure, political expedience, pissed off the wrong guy) And every one of those to a tee discovered the unempoyability that comes with that awesome endorsement that has to be paid off, low TT and no Command time. A few reconciled themselves to a career in the right hand seat. I recall gaining a command over one such individual and I'll never forget the look on the guys face after the relevant management pilot explained to him (slowly) that the company had neither the spare resources (Training Captain) nor the inclination at that time to give him the required ICUS. Bitter? you bet. But he had nowhere to go. He'd screwed himself with a greasy pole cadetship.
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Phoenix,
You will find it very difficult to get a job with less than 250hrs by surfing the net and waiting for the job to come to you.
You will need to get off your arse, and cold call - maybe even travel around the country and knock on doors to find that job.
If you're not prepared to put in some hard work now as a newbie - you'll never make it in an airline.
Sorry, but that's the reality of the industry.
You will find it very difficult to get a job with less than 250hrs by surfing the net and waiting for the job to come to you.
You will need to get off your arse, and cold call - maybe even travel around the country and knock on doors to find that job.
If you're not prepared to put in some hard work now as a newbie - you'll never make it in an airline.
Sorry, but that's the reality of the industry.
PNZ
You're correct on both the lack of a website and recruiting through other means but wrong when you assume there are no jobs out there.
There are quite a few jobs out there in NZ, perhaps not as many as OZ or in some cases as well paid as Oz but they're there. There is no website and very rarely is there ever any adverts in other media. The fact you lament the lack of a website advertising jobs in New Zealand demonstrates your lack of understanding of the industry.
Why is there no website? Simple the jobs are filled by keen pilots and pilotesses who get out there and get in front of prospective employers. In many cases their first job is where they learned to fly. Employers don't need to advertise, most GA jobs are fill by word of mouth.
Unfortunately for the likes of yourself training at CTC, since their focus is entirely airline orientated, you do not get exposed to the avenues that GA can offer and how and where to find these jobs.
As Tidbinbilla stated,
By the way, the whole CPL MEIR package can be done for a fair bit less than $100,000 at most places. Is that what CTC charge?
I'm yet to find any website that advertises NZ pilot jobs so either there just aren't any available or they recruit through other means.
There are quite a few jobs out there in NZ, perhaps not as many as OZ or in some cases as well paid as Oz but they're there. There is no website and very rarely is there ever any adverts in other media. The fact you lament the lack of a website advertising jobs in New Zealand demonstrates your lack of understanding of the industry.
Why is there no website? Simple the jobs are filled by keen pilots and pilotesses who get out there and get in front of prospective employers. In many cases their first job is where they learned to fly. Employers don't need to advertise, most GA jobs are fill by word of mouth.
Unfortunately for the likes of yourself training at CTC, since their focus is entirely airline orientated, you do not get exposed to the avenues that GA can offer and how and where to find these jobs.
As Tidbinbilla stated,
You will need to get off your arse, and cold call - maybe even travel around the country and knock on doors to find that job.
How about waiting for up to 5 years, like some people have done ?
/end monty python
Sorry! Just had to sneak that one in, do continue with the excellent debate over cadets.
Just to stay on topic- Phoenix- PLEASE listen to the advice on here. Although it sounds harsh, most people on here ACTUALLY have your best interests in mind when posting advice.
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Pheonix, I had 400+ hours by the time I got my CPL. I flew the tug at a gliding club and also a C206 at a skydiving club on a PPL. I got my first job at Moorrabin with a bare CPL - no instrument or instuctor rating. I had 600 hrs before the Boss let me fly the Seneca 
.
Mate, be inventive and get creative, you will find a way, as we all did. Like Pyscho Joe, I have met guys who did the CPL and jet TR only to find they were up the River Merde' sans paddle when a downturn came and they got laid off: no command time and limited operational experience means no portability of qualifications. In this industry, you HAVE to be able to be portable. You can expect to move many times during your career.
My additional advice to anyone in the industry these days (at any level) is DO NOT CARRY A LARGE DEBT
Chad, in my day, you needed 2000 hrs to be allowed to WASH the Kingair
..
...and you had to grovel to do that!
.Mate, be inventive and get creative, you will find a way, as we all did. Like Pyscho Joe, I have met guys who did the CPL and jet TR only to find they were up the River Merde' sans paddle when a downturn came and they got laid off: no command time and limited operational experience means no portability of qualifications. In this industry, you HAVE to be able to be portable. You can expect to move many times during your career.
My additional advice to anyone in the industry these days (at any level) is DO NOT CARRY A LARGE DEBT
Chad, in my day, you needed 2000 hrs to be allowed to WASH the Kingair
.....and you had to grovel to do that!
Not in QLink so those that are may hold a different opinion but
a) QLink still pays for your type rating and fronts up most of the cost of the traineeship (you salary sacrafice it back)
b) You are 100% guaranteed to be put on the EBA
c) It doesn't seem to be totally replacing direct entry
Read the forums, there is a lot less bitching about it than Jetstar, I assume for the above reasons!
a) QLink still pays for your type rating and fronts up most of the cost of the traineeship (you salary sacrafice it back)
b) You are 100% guaranteed to be put on the EBA
c) It doesn't seem to be totally replacing direct entry
Read the forums, there is a lot less bitching about it than Jetstar, I assume for the above reasons!
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PhoenixNZ,
If you want to go for a cadetship then go for it.
I dont agree with what the airlines are doing but I do understand how people can be 'lured' into cadetships.
Being an "Airline Pilot" is a really 'cool' job......or so it seems. And kids can be fast tracked into it these days. Sure the pay is crap but it usually doesnt matter because these 19 years olds are usually still living with Mum and Dad. If they have to move, they'll flat with 3 other blokes and have a great time!!!
But it's only when you get into your late 20's - early 30's that you dont want to live with 3 other guys in a party house anymore, but you want to settle down, buy a house etc; you pull out the calculator and it tells you that you cant do any of that...
PhoenixNZ, when I was your age (Im assuming your around 14.....15??), I would have gone for a cadetship if they existed....but they didnt so I went out bush and spent time eating flies and experiencing the "stink"....and I ended up in an airline anyway. Looking back on it now (it was only a couple of years ago), I am glad that I did time in GA because it taught me skills and gave me confidence that I can handle myself in scary situations. Hopefully I never need to utilise that confidence ever again...but I know that I have it.
These are things that you probably wont experience as a cadet pilot.....until many years later when the bars on your shoulders stand for "Its All Your Fault" - and you have a 200hr fellow next to you......and then you are both going into unchartered waters togather. Now thats scary stuff!!!!
You complain that there are limited options out there.....not true. There are many opportunties out there, you just need to go looking for them. There are plenty of kiwis that have come over to Oz, got a car and headed up north, and they all found jobs....its not hard.
Over the last few days you must have typed thousands of word into this thread. Instead of spending hours upon hours on this forum, I suggest that you spend that time studying for a cadet interview or starting to ring operators around the place, instead of winding these old buggers up.
Eternity.
If you want to go for a cadetship then go for it.
I dont agree with what the airlines are doing but I do understand how people can be 'lured' into cadetships.
Being an "Airline Pilot" is a really 'cool' job......or so it seems. And kids can be fast tracked into it these days. Sure the pay is crap but it usually doesnt matter because these 19 years olds are usually still living with Mum and Dad. If they have to move, they'll flat with 3 other blokes and have a great time!!!
But it's only when you get into your late 20's - early 30's that you dont want to live with 3 other guys in a party house anymore, but you want to settle down, buy a house etc; you pull out the calculator and it tells you that you cant do any of that...
PhoenixNZ, when I was your age (Im assuming your around 14.....15??), I would have gone for a cadetship if they existed....but they didnt so I went out bush and spent time eating flies and experiencing the "stink"....and I ended up in an airline anyway. Looking back on it now (it was only a couple of years ago), I am glad that I did time in GA because it taught me skills and gave me confidence that I can handle myself in scary situations. Hopefully I never need to utilise that confidence ever again...but I know that I have it.
These are things that you probably wont experience as a cadet pilot.....until many years later when the bars on your shoulders stand for "Its All Your Fault" - and you have a 200hr fellow next to you......and then you are both going into unchartered waters togather. Now thats scary stuff!!!!
You complain that there are limited options out there.....not true. There are many opportunties out there, you just need to go looking for them. There are plenty of kiwis that have come over to Oz, got a car and headed up north, and they all found jobs....its not hard.
Over the last few days you must have typed thousands of word into this thread. Instead of spending hours upon hours on this forum, I suggest that you spend that time studying for a cadet interview or starting to ring operators around the place, instead of winding these old buggers up.
Eternity.
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@Eternity
Your about 10-11 years off my age there mate. Married with two children is kind of hard when your 15 lol.
Going bush as you put it is all well and good when your single and have no other real responsibilities but its unfortunately not the same when you have a family to look after. Its unfair on my family to drag them from place to place searching for a job.
Now one could say that I should have done this earlier, studying to be a commercial pilot that is, and thats well and good. No one however knows my personal circumstances so aren't really in a position to comment on that. I could also have skipped doing it all together but its never to late to pursue ones dreams.
I'm more than happy to do the hard yards to get into a job but I will never do something thats going to put my family in undue hardship just for the sake of posterity.
I've got another year left in my training so these aren't decisions I'm faced with immediately. Who knows, a year is a long time and changes to cadet programs may well either make them less attractive or alternately change them so they are more suited to everyone in the industry.
My points in this discussion were never about whether or not the cadet programs are good or bad or otherwise. Its always been about making sure the blame goes in the wrong place so that those 19-20 year olds who are cadets aren't getting **** on by other pilots for no justifiable reason.
As I've said (repeatedly) blame the program and those who run it. Dont blame those who join up when they believe its their best option.
Your about 10-11 years off my age there mate. Married with two children is kind of hard when your 15 lol.
Going bush as you put it is all well and good when your single and have no other real responsibilities but its unfortunately not the same when you have a family to look after. Its unfair on my family to drag them from place to place searching for a job.
Now one could say that I should have done this earlier, studying to be a commercial pilot that is, and thats well and good. No one however knows my personal circumstances so aren't really in a position to comment on that. I could also have skipped doing it all together but its never to late to pursue ones dreams.
I'm more than happy to do the hard yards to get into a job but I will never do something thats going to put my family in undue hardship just for the sake of posterity.
I've got another year left in my training so these aren't decisions I'm faced with immediately. Who knows, a year is a long time and changes to cadet programs may well either make them less attractive or alternately change them so they are more suited to everyone in the industry.
My points in this discussion were never about whether or not the cadet programs are good or bad or otherwise. Its always been about making sure the blame goes in the wrong place so that those 19-20 year olds who are cadets aren't getting **** on by other pilots for no justifiable reason.
As I've said (repeatedly) blame the program and those who run it. Dont blame those who join up when they believe its their best option.