Jetstar legal action update

[JustJoinedToSearch]

Phoenix, Phoenix, Phoenix.....

Originally Posted by PhoenixNZ

What reasonable person would ask someone to take half the pay and half the experience just so that they can continue.

This is where you go wrong..

How many times in potential air disasters that are averted do you hear something like 'due to his substantial gliding experience the captain was able to safely bring down the out of fuel 767 on the drag strip' or similar?

I am yet to hear 'the former cadet captain who had never had to make any decisions by himself under pressure magically gained this skill at the instant it was required!'

By foregoing GA you are avoiding getting the most important thing you will ever need in an aeroplane. And you can't learn it from a book, you even can't learn it from watching someone else perform under pressure (i.e. the captain). You have to experience it for your self.

In GA you get half the pay (or more if you value your skills highly enough) but infinitely times the experience.

You can teach an experienced descision making pilot SOP's. You can't teach a cadet experience.

[PhoenixNZ]

Originally Posted by JustJoinedToSearch

So the cadets that signed up to 40,000 or so NZ dollars and paid for training with the intention of undercutting every single pilot in Australia, now get a job in Australia, on the EBA and get their training paid for?

Not one of the cadets who sign up to be a cadet do it with the intention or desire to undercut any pilots. They do it because the only other alternatives are ****.

You all accuse cadets of wanting to take the easy way to get into a jet and your right. What rational person is given two options and says "Ohhh I'll take the hardest way please".

I'm not by any means saying that doing GA doesn't offer benefits for your flying. But those benefits have to be weighted against the financial ones and the financial benefits of a cadet scheme so far outweighs GA that its not funny.

I consider my training to be a pilot both a lifestyle choice and an investment. Just like any investment I would like to get the best possible return on it. If GA paid anything that was even remotely approaching the JQ cadets program then I'd certainly consider it. I quite like the idea of GA flying for a few years before going into jets. But sadly it doesn't.

Originally Posted by JustJoinedToSearch

They agreed to undercut and offshore the jobs of the pilots on that EBA. These are selfish people who only thought about themselves, at the expense of every other pilot and prospective pilot in Australia who wanted to be able to live in the country they love and do the job they love.

What is your own argument but your own selfish desire to retain conditions in a way that benefits you? Your own argument is completely selfish. You dont care about the other pilots, you care about your own pocket. The fact that every other pilot is the same doesn't mean your thinking about them at all.

Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay

.....and that makes us all arseholes for being slightly unhappy about peolple moving in, voiding our years of hard work and taking jobs away from those of us who did the GA thing?

No it makes you arseholes for condeming people and abusing them for doing whats best for them and their families. Your welcome to be unhappy about cadet schemes but the cadets are just doing right by themselves. Blame JQ by all means, dont blame the cadets.

Originally Posted by The Green Goblin

You'll understand one day.

It will probably be when guys like yourself are offering to do it for 40k instead of 60k using your same rational.

Yep and I'd be upset at the company for offering it. I'm not going to go abusing the people who take up that offer though if they feel its the best option for them. I'm not going to cold shoulder them in the cockpit just because I dont like what the company is doing.

Originally Posted by waren9

One serious gap in your knowledge they won’t teach you at Raybans and Epaulettes flight school.

Unions and industry ARE people and cadets.

Yep they sure are. But sorry if this is selfish but whats best for my family and myself is always going to come before whats best for the union as a whole. I'll support the union, I'll help and contribute etc etc but I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot for them.

Originally Posted by c173

guys you don't get it....he gets to fly a big shiny jet!!! that's all that matters

Nope - I get to provide for my family and build experience that will get me into a great career. Thats all that matters.

Originally Posted by JustJoinedToSearch

This is where you go wrong..

How many times in potential air disasters that are averted do you hear something like 'due to his substantial gliding experience the captain was able to safely bring down the out of fuel 767 on the drag strip' or similar?

I am yet to hear 'the former cadet captain who had never had to make any decisions by himself under pressure magically gained this skill at the instant it was required!'

By foregoing GA you are avoiding getting the most important thing you will ever need in an aeroplane. And you can't learn it from a book, you even can't learn it from watching someone else perform under pressure (i.e. the captain). You have to experience it for your self.

In GA you get half the pay (or more if you value your skills highly enough) but infinitely times the experience.

You can teach an experienced descision making pilot SOP's. You can't teach a cadet experience.

And yet none of this discussion has been around lack of experience for cadets. Its been purely about the fact that you consider them scabs because they dare accept a job for less money.

[chockchucker]

So PheonixNZ,


Let me sum up. Basically what you're saying is, "I'm alright jack and stuff everyone else".


Be they your current colleagues fighting for a decent wage and conditions in the face of rampant ideologs the like of Bruce Buchannan et-al, or the poor kids coming up after you.


As long as you get into that shiny new jet, you think you're climbing your way to a legacy type job with legacy type conditions. Problem is that you're actively helping destroy those positions with your actions. So that you'll end up killing off that which you aspire to.


It's called short termism. You can only look ahead to what will effect you in the here and now. Sadly, with that outlook, you'll never get to where you think you're heading to.



There are no shortcuts in life.And any shortcuts taken in aviation invariably always end in tears. If it looks too good to be true (ie Jetstar cadetships, or rapid promotions to the left hand seat) it probably is.

[PhoenixNZ]

Chockchucker:

So if someone came to you and said "Hi, we would like you to give up $20k a year so that everyone elses pay stays the same" are you going to say "Sure, thats fine".

As long as you get into that shiny new jet, you think you're climbing your way to a legacy type job with legacy type conditions. Problem is that you're actively helping destroy those positions with your actions. So that you'll end up killing off that which you aspire to.

Not at all. I'm more than aware of what direction aviation is heading to in terms of pilot pay. I dont expect the same wages are going to exist forever. But I'm not in it for the money. As long as the money pays the bills the reflects to a degree the level of investment I've personally put in then I'm fine.

All the doomsayers are saying that wages are just going to drop and drop and drop. But they wont because there will be a point at which they can't employ any pilots as the level of investment needed to be a pilot will far outweigh the gains.

So yes, wages are probably going to come down. But certainly not to a point where everyones struggling to pay the bills. Airline pilots are always going to be at the high end of the payscale because of the high cost it takes to get there.

Anyone who gets into aviation for the legacy wages clearly hasn't done their research. If you want to get into aviation you need to do it for the joy of flying.

[KRUSTY 34]

The joy of flying! What, fastrack to the RHS of an A320 and then having to eat catfood!

Don't delude yourself (or the rest of us PNZ). You're after a career, and that's fine. But the "Joy of flying" my friend will have very little to to with your "career" in the brave new world you are preparing to embrace.

More of a warning than anything else.

[PhoenixNZ]

Of course I'm after a career. I've never said otherwise. If I dont enjoy flying then why would I be spending 80k to get into this?

I could take a 30k management degree and probably end up far better paid. If your flying for the money then you have a very very poor understanding of economics.

[The Green Goblin]

It would have to be a Kiwi wouldn't it!

Hang your head in shame.

All the new hires and students say they are not in it for the money, the love of flying bla bla bla.

Reality hits some time soon after. (generally when you're working in a servo part time along with flying a jet for 48k after paying for your endorsement).

Generally when the pile of bills stacks up, the loans still needs to be paid for, the car needs fixing and the mrs has had the ****s. Next you'll be whinging cause you're not in the left seat yet!

Moving on.

[jibba_jabba]

Of course I'm after a career. I've never said otherwise. If I dont enjoy flying then why would I be spending 80k to get into this?

I could take a 30k management degree and probably end up far better paid. If your flying for the money then you have a very very poor understanding of economics.

hahaha,
oxymoron alert.

next you will be telling us all that management have your best interests at heart.

I am glad you are moving toward a career you find interesting, but unfortunately your mortgage lender understands economics better than you do :-)

good luck.

[PhoenixNZ]

Its quite simple:
I'm in aviation because the amount of money it pays is reasonable and I get to do something I love.

And anyone who can't pay the bills on 48k (or the 60k that is now the entry pay for cadets) has serious budgetting issues. I'm surviving currently in around 40k pre-tax with two children. Its not uber-comfortable but its certainly not starving.

[PhoenixNZ]

hahaha,
oxymoron alert.

next you will be telling us all that management have your best interests at heart.

I am glad you are moving toward a career you find interesting, but unfortunately your mortgage lender understands economics better than you do :-)

good luck.

Why dont you enlighten me seeing as your so obviously an expert in economics and explain how spending 80k to earn 100k a year is better than spending 30k to earn 200k a year?

Management have the interests of the airline at heart. No company in the world can survive though if it doesn't also put some thought into keeping its employees happy.

[chockchucker]

So yes, wages are probably going to come down. But certainly not to a point where everyones struggling to pay the bills. Airline pilots are always going to be at the high end of the payscale because of the high cost it takes to get there.

Pheonix, you're obviously a deluded and naive young person.


Perhaps worse still, it would appear you are a selfish fool. And in a flight deck that makes you dangerous.

[PhoenixNZ]

Or maybe I'm just an optimist.

Do you really think they will still convince people to pay 80k for a job where the highest salary is 60k?

Hands up in the room who would actually do that?

Also chock I notice you didn't actually answer my question.

[PhoenixNZ]

Actually that's not how it works, everyone else has already had the $20k year job so that they can now earn $100k, you are the one who wants to skip the hard bit. And before you give me that 'but I have 2 children' crap how about the rest of us who decided not to have kids yet specifically because we had to do the hard yards.
You can choose to take this path, but be advised that it includes the rest of the pilot body shunning you for the under cutter that you are.

No, you had the 20k a year job because it was the only one that was available at the time. You didn't give up anything because there were no other options.

Are you seriously saying you would take a 20k job over a 60k job because you care so deeply about the industry?

Now your saying that those of us who have got the option to earn a better living shouldn't because thats just not how it was done in the old days.

What guarentees can anyone give that after five years in GA that one could actually still get a job at current rates? None.

[PhoenixNZ]

Everyones going on about how cadet schemes will result in lower pay for everyone across the industry but has anyone actually got anything other than speculation to back that up?

The UK has been running cadet schemes for quite some time, anything that backs up that having a cadet scheme has lowered wages for those more experienced F/Os or Capts? Any job losses because of it? I have searched quite a bit online and found nothing that supports cadet schemes resulting in reduced conditions for existing FOs and Capts.

The reality is that cadet schemes are no different to standard apprenticeships. You do the basic training, you become an apprentice to start learning the more practical skills on a considerably lower than average salary and then as you get the experience you move up the ladder.

Someone explain how cadet schemes are any different to an apprenticeship.

[waren9]

No company in the world can survive though if it doesn't also put some thought into keeping its employees happy

Thats the funniest fcuking thing I've read on here for ages. PhoenixNZ mate, does none of what you read on here actually sink in. There are about 10 QF threads running that should have given you some idea of what QF and JQ think of their employees.

Mate, when you wake up from the dream its gonna be one hellova shock.

[PhoenixNZ]

And what are the JQ and QF pilots doing about it other than sitting here on PPrune bitching about it?

The pilots need to harden up and take the action required and show JQ and QF that they aren't willing to stand for it. Without pilots JQ and QF are going to have some serious issues.

They will keep abusing you until you stand up to them.

[tryhard1]

Hi PNZ,

I'm not going to try and talk you out of your planned career path, and if that opportunity was around when I was looking into aviation, perhaps I would have taken it? (actually the Qantas cadet program was, but I couldn't afford it) but I did give up a well paying job to start in aviation, and I have to admit the happiest part of my aviation career was in GA, and also in the regionals.

When you finally join us at JQ, please understand, that those weekends you may have had with the kids will mostly disappear, you will be tired on your days off, and also while at work, which could actually effect those that you care about when you miss those special moments with the family while your working, or grumpy with the misses because she doesn't understand you working so hard, and when you are home, you just want to sleep on the couch.

Also, please don't forget that JQ can get rid of you at any time during the training if you don't cut it, and you still have to pay the $$ for the training, which unfortunately is at a highly over inflated price (as this is how JQ and the flying schools make money out of you.)

I wish you the best though, its a tough decision and a commitment that both you and your family will have to make for many years to come. I wish you well.

[waren9]

And what are the JQ and QF pilots doing about it other than sitting here on PPRuNe bitching about it?

If you belonged to a union and stopped thinking about yourself for 5 min you'd know the answer to that.

[The Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by F a r k i n g dreamer!

Everyones going on about how cadet schemes will result in lower pay for everyone across the industry but has anyone actually got anything other than speculation to back that up?

The UK has been running cadet schemes for quite some time, anything that backs up that having a cadet scheme has lowered wages for those more experienced F/Os or Capts? Any job losses because of it? I have searched quite a bit online and found nothing that supports cadet schemes resulting in reduced conditions for existing FOs and Capts.

The reality is that cadet schemes are no different to standard apprenticeships. You do the basic training, you become an apprentice to start learning the more practical skills on a considerably lower than average salary and then as you get the experience you move up the ladder.

Someone explain how cadet schemes are any different to an apprenticeship.

In the UK first it was the low cost carrier. Then it was pay for your endorsement. Then it was pay a ****load of money for a cadetship, then pay for your endorsement. (meanwhile all the wages where coming down as supply of pilots rose).

It has finally culminated in pay for your cadetship, pay for your endorsement, pay for 500 hours line training along with your own accommodation at outports.

Guys are doing this because they think there is a pot of gold waiting for them at emirates if they do.

So basically unless you're in a legacy carrier in Europe, it is pretty hard to get an FO position that pays the bills at all. In fact, you pay to fly the aircraft!

All this because "I had a wife and kids, and needed to get ahead". Problem is there is always someone else willing to go lower as can be attested to the rot in Europe.

NZ will be next. Just wait till the boffins work out how much you lot are prepared to pay for 500 hours line training!

Living the dream.

[PhoenixNZ]

Actually Yes, I already have. Was about $50k to be an SO with V Oz but turned it down as I didn't think they where paying enough for the position. Turned down Cathay the other day for the same reason.

The difference is that I'm perfectly happy taking $60k given that I'm fresh out of training.

They are taking action, but all that is happening is the likes of you are undercutting them. What the pilot group needs to do is make under cutters lives so sh!t that no one would dream of doing it. Then the likes of QF and JQ would have to pay more for experienced pilots.

Again it seems your punishing us for simply taking the best deal around. For being human in other words. Why not punish those who made the offer in the first place. Or better yet, why didn't you while you were in GA push for better wages so that these offers aren't so good for new pilots?