JetStar NZ

[haughtney1]

A current JQ 320 Capt NZ nets on average, NZD $8500 Per month doing 80-90 hours per month ( nearer 90 ). 10 days off per month and 9 hours average duty per work day. Including flight pay, but not including bonus.
Mates in the sand pit ( EK ) net around 12,000 NZD per month ( thanks to tanking USD ) plus accommodation provided. So that's ( based on a 4 week month ) NZD $ 2,125 per week Jetstar vs NZD $3,000 per week EK. Difference , 875 per week

I just want to add a bit of my own experience here, and its based off my payslip as a year 2 F/O at EK.
Yes its true we here in the sandpit have taken a hit with respect to the NZD (relatively speaking I guess)
Having said that, I'm not entirely sure the headline figure for EK skippers of 12K NZ net per month is accurate based on my pay packet at least, and its worth saying that the headline figure is meaningless, what you need to look at is what you are left with at the end of the month as well as what is affordable and what your standard of living actually is.
First things first however, the Jet* F/O package is a disgrace, however its clearly aimed at new joiners who will by virtue of their lack of marketable experience climb over each other to secure a position.
The Capt's package, broadly speaking is at the lower end of what I would consider acceptable, and in all reality what Jet* can get away with.
Like I said earlier.(as a 2nd year EK F/O)...to back up Bypass with some actual figures..I cleared last month approx 11K NZD including flightpay, but exclusive of super, bonus etc etc etc, and again, to earn that in NZ, I'd have to be earning the thick end of 14-14.5K per month too net that.
I'm also gonna throw something else into the mix here, living in NZ is far far more expensive than it ever has been...in point of fact I've found that it is almost on a par with dubai, and before you scoff...what do you now pay for a litre of petrol?, a pint of milk?, a leg of lamb?, a loaf of bread?, a few fillets of fish?, electricity?, plus a few more things besides.....I can tell you all of these things are now considerably more expensive in NZ than here in DXB.
As this is not meant to be an EK vs Jet* thread, I'm gonna stop there with the money aspect, what I would say however is, salaries in NZ are not keeping up with the inflated cost of living (have you tried buying a house in the AKL region recently?), and at some point in the not too distant future the NZD is going to dip vs the USD....and you'll have even less purchasing power.
For someone like me at my stage in life with a young growing family, working offshore is a no brainer (we can get back to NZ whenever we need to)...NZ will continue to be the land of low pay...and a reducing standards of living.


P.S. All my numbers are based on my families costs living between DXB and AKL over the last 6 months

[big buddah]

As someone who hopefully in a years time be a Jetstar cadet I've found this discussion quite interesting.

When I'm done with my Ab Initio training I have every intention of applying for the Jetstar Cadet program.

My thought process behind this is quite simple:
I get a rating on an aircraft in high use with airlines all over the world
I get to start building hours on said aircraft with very low existing hours which for NZ and Australia is very very rare
If, once I have enough hours to look at moving onto another airline, I dont like the conditions at JQ I can move on.
Yes, the pay is lower compared to other JQ pilots. I am more than willing to accept that in exchange for getting my airline career off to a flying start (pun intended).

If I was to choose NOT to do the JQ cadets program then in all probability I will have to fight tooth and nail with every other 250 hour pilot with a CPL for one of the few charter GA type jobs out there. I wont get paid any more than I was compared to JQ and I'll have no 320 rating, no 320 hours and then have to fight again to get into an airline.

Taking a lower pay than my colleagues in the job is a small price to pay to get my career off to that sort of start.

PhoenixNZ you are a absolute mumpet! You are the sole reason why thousands of pilots world wide are fighting to save their jobs and better their future.
You are self centered short sighted and are dream pilot for management. You'll have quick gains in "your career" but will end up off side with the pilots groups. This will massively restricted your future movement. You will find that your decision based now may become a serious blotch on your CV. As mentioned the better airlines in the region won't hire you. If you think because you have a A320 rating you'll be able to go to Air NZ, think again! Suddenly you will see that managements cunning plan to have you stuck on your current terms and conditions has worked! You'll begin the fight to raise your terms and conditions but with no luck as you signed up as a lowly cadet that no one cares about.

The other local jet operators are trying hard to improve their conditions Jetconnect, Pacificblue, Air NZ. All you will be doing to them is pushing a knife in their backs. You will be signing a contract to earn nearly 50% of what these operators pay terms & conditions wise? Think hard about how they feel about that.

The only reason jetstar has started these cadet positions is for them to make money not you.

The road of the GA pilot in NZ, OZ, Africa ,PNG etc has been well walked, a true and trusted way of building hrs and life experiences. It is where you make your pilot friends. It is earning the respect of the these fellow colleagues thats guarantees your future career!

You should start by talking to people in the industry and definitely not people who hang around CTC or the jetstar cadet program.
NZALPA the professional pilot group of NZ is doing everything to raise terms & conditions in NZ and in conjunction with AFAP etc. You will being going against these professional groups endeavours. These are the people you want on your side working for you! Talk to them!

[27/09]

Angry Rat

Not true, 2 ways around it:

1) at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision (ICUS)

2) at least 250 hours flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours as pilot in command and the balance as ICUS

Now considering you need a minimum of 90 hrs PIC for a 150hr Com or 100hrs PIC for a 200hr Com, all you need is a Multi CIR and you are on your way

In OZ perhaps but not NZ.

Yes there is the TTRMA though I'm not sure how some operators on this side of the ditch view a NZ ATPL gained via the TTRMA in a situation like this. I know our CAA were not happy with some aspects of the TTRMA and the way pilots are skirting around the new Zealand ATPL requirements and were having talks with CASA about this.

[Artificial Horizon]

What have the NZ CAA requirements got to do with anything, half the pilots in Jetstar NZ don't have any form of NZ Licence. They all operate on CASA Licencing and I can tell you there has already been a path put in place with CASA to ensure that Cadets can gain a full ATPL when requirements are met. They will then be able to fly around in NZ as Captains regardless of what the NZ CAA thinks about it all.

[framer]

fly around in NZ as Captains regardless of what the NZ CAA thinks about it all.

With the whole thing riding on NZCAA not making a rule change?
Bit risky isn't it?

[framer]

The only way that this can/could change is if the NZ body make it a requirement for the aircraft to be NZ registered or ban J* NZ from flying in NZ. Not going to happen IMO

They could make a rule change to the effect that if you are operating aircraft that are based in NZ you need an NZATPL. Job done.

[remoak]

You'll have quick gains in "your career" but will end up off side with the pilots groups. This will massively restricted your future movement.

Complete crap. Having the type rating and some experience is what future employers will look at - not the fact that you got it at Jetstar, which in any case is a highly regarded trainer of pilots.

You will find that your decision based now may become a serious blotch on your CV. As mentioned the better airlines in the region won't hire you.

Again, complete crap. If airlines need pilots, and you have the qualifications they want, you will be in with the same chance as everyone else. Airlines don't care who your previous employer was, unless it was the very worst of the worst in terms of training and safety. HR departments just look at your experience, see that you were trained at a subsidiary of Qantas, and decide accordingly. THEY are the ones doing the hiring, not pilots. And in any case, the very reason they will put you through three days of interviews and a sim check is precisely because they want to make their own minds up.

If you think because you have a A320 rating you'll be able to go to Air NZ, think again!

If and when Air NZ need pilots, they will make a pragmatic decision based on your qualifications and experience. They don't hold grudges against other airlines, that's the sort of crap that groups of pilots in bars do. More to the point, if you don't go down the Jetstar route, you won't have the qualifications to apply to Air NZ in any case. Not that Air NZ are ever likely to hire directly onto the A320 anyway...

The only reason jetstar has started these cadet positions is for them to make money not you.

The only reason any airline hires anybody is to make money.

The road of the GA pilot in NZ, OZ, Africa ,PNG etc has been well walked, a true and trusted way of building hrs and life experiences. It is where you make your pilot friends. It is earning the respect of the these fellow colleagues thats guarantees your future career!

The road to the airlines doesn't have to involve the years of poverty, risk-taking and uncertainty that the GA path requires. I didn't tread that path and, guess what, I have never had any trouble finding a job, have plenty of pilot friends on several continents, and have, I believe, their respect - based on the sort of pilot I am, not the path I chose to the airlines. Most of them don't know the exact details anyway, and don't ask.

This idea that you have to do the hard yards as some sort of rite of passage in aviation is utter nonsense. Even more stupid is the idea that you should sacrifice a career opportunity to provide some nebulous help in bolstering the pay and conditions of those already flying jets. Yeah, that's really smart! What is actually happening here, is that those already flying airline-level equipment see you as a threat, and, being the selfish individuals that they are, would rather you declined the position in order to preserve their lifestyles. My advice - look after your own career first, because none of these guys are going to help you.

NZALPA the professional pilot group of NZ is doing everything to raise terms & conditions in NZ and in conjunction with AFAP etc. You will being going against these professional groups endeavours. These are the people you want on your side working for you! Talk to them!

NZALPA is a toothless old tiger that has had it's day, I wouldn't hold your breath expecting any help from them. Definitely not in GA as you struggle towards and airline career (if you were to go that way).

Some of you guys need to get out a little. Guess what, all these arguments have been had already in Europe and the USA. Guess what everyone said when Easyjet and Ryanair started hiring cadets - all the same arguments you see here. And what happened? Thousands of pilots got the break they needed and are now flying bigger equipment for other airlines. And nobody got hurt in the process. Other airlines don't care that they got their start at a low-cost operator, in fact you will find that these pilots are prized as the training at both the budget airlines is excellent.

So, PhoenixNZ, I'd say go for it. You probably won't get the opportunity again in this country. Your reasoning is perfectly sound. The only reason you are getting a reaction on here is because a lot of these guys see you as a threat and would rather you went away, which is pretty much what drives all the anti-Jetstar crap you see on these forums. That, and the ridiculous idea that the only way to an airline seat is through GA. That myth was dispelled long ago in more enlightened countries.

Australia and New Zealand - the most insular and parochial places on the planet... nice scenery though.

[27/09]

My thought process behind this is quite simple:
I get a rating on an aircraft in high use with airlines all over the world
I get to start building hours on said aircraft with very low existing hours which for NZ and Australia is very very rare
If, once I have enough hours to look at moving onto another airline, I dont like the conditions at JQ I can move on.

Sure you get a type rating, well actually you buy a type rating, adding to the vast expense you have already incurred during your cadet training.

Yes, you build hours on a jet which as you've pointed out is very very rare in NZ and Oz. Have you bothered to ask yourself why it's so rare in this part of the world? I'll tell you it's because there's never been a shortage of suitable applicants to fly jets on this part of the world.

Have you ever asked why are you being offered this "wonderful' opportunity to fly a shiny jet with such low hours? That's so Jetstar can pay you a pittance, other pilots wanting a jet job know how crap the conditions are and are not interested.

Where are you going to move on to if you don't like it? Do you really know how things are in the aviation industry, or do you just know what the likes of CTC and Jetstar have told you?

PhoenixNZ, You really do need to think this whole scenario through, right to the end, to see where it's likely to lead for your career if you really think this is good move right now. Once you start thinking along the lines of "I'll do this to get a start" what about the next time you want to "Get a start" how far will you bend over then. How much money will it cost you and your family.

You think it's costing right now? Wait until you've spent a good proportion of your career having to bend over to get ahead and you still don't have enough money to take the wife and kids to the zoo. Remember that big fat loan you will have after finishing the cadet scheme and paying for the type rating.

[27/09]

The road to the airlines doesn't have to involve the years of poverty, risk-taking and uncertainty that the GA path requires.

Very true. You now now go directly to years of poverty and uncertainty at an airline bypassing GA altogether. In fact it would appear that GA might actually become a better option to avoid poverty and uncertainty.

[big buddah]

The only reason any airline hires anybody is to make money.

Yes you're right but it should not be doing it out of you the employee! The jetstar bean counters look at you the cadet as another revenue stream and will continue to milk you for it. I love to see a break down of the profit they are making out of cadet training?
The cadets should ask for a cost break down and compare it to what they could pay for it elsewhere?

The road to the airlines doesn't have to involve the years of poverty, risk-taking and uncertainty that the GA path requires.

There is many other lines of aviation other than the airlines. I've operated for many good & better paying operations worldwide that you would call "GA" on better pay and conditions than the jetstar F/o package. Without poverty, risk taking or uncertainty.
Turbo prop F/o's in NZ are getting paid more than the direct entry jetstar F/o. You have better pay and conditions working for Mt Cook or Air Nelson, so your argument doesn't stack up to me!

NZALPA is a toothless old tiger that has had it's day, I wouldn't hold your breath expecting any help from them.

"Them" is every NZALPA member. Every airline/ATC in NZ has their ALPA council and is only as strong as the pilot group that you are involved with. Why do you think over the years these groups have negotiated fear deals for themselves? because they got together and worked as a team for a better deal. Something Remoak you don't seem to keen to do?

So what EBA/CEA are you employed on in NZ????? Individual?

If and when Air NZ need pilots, they will make a pragmatic decision based on your qualifications and experience. They don't hold grudges against other airlines, that's the sort of crap that groups of pilots in bars do. More to the point, if you don't go down the Jetstar route, you won't have the qualifications to apply to Air NZ in any case. Not that Air NZ are ever likely to hire directly onto the A320 anyway...

I'm not saying that the airlines will have a grudge against you. They just want a driver to get from a to b as cheap as possible.
To think that after 3 years of the jetstar cadet scheme it will easier to get into Air NZ is to be hugely mistaken. So if you are going to do the cadet scheme to having a plan of staying in NZ long term you will have poverty and uncertainty! jetstar are already offshoring and undercutting their own crew so what do really think is going to happen to you?

[Luke SkyToddler]

Guys.

You're wasting your breath. He's not even reading what you're saying, he's reading the stuff from a couple of pages back about how much the guy in Emirates gets paid and thinking "wow a couple of years in Jetstar and I could have some of that". And you know what, he probably could.

Look at the discussion on the "wannabes" forum which is largely pitched at Brits and Europeans, and the discussion has moved on from paid jobs altogether, it's all about which pay-to-fly broker is best to use in order to go and buy 500 hours worth of "line training", which will typically cost THEM around £20 to £30,000 for the privilege of sitting in a right seat for a few months.

So they can then go and pay £50 to submit their online application to Ryanair, and £150 for the interview should they be called.

And then work for £10,000 per year to fly a B737. And pay for their own sims, uniforms, hotels and crew food.

All this, after they've paid £70,000 for a CPL/IR and £30,000 for a type rating.

And there are STILL hundreds and hundreds of punters queueing up to do it.

THAT is the kind of future that airline managers dream about and as long as supply vs demand in NZ of output-from-the-schools versus available jobs stays so skewed, it's only a matter of time I reckon.

You're right going to Jetstar might not improve their chances with Air NZ or QF, but get real, when's the last time they hired anyway. Or at least, hired more than half a dozen guys in a year. Awesome if your number comes up in THAT lottery but realistically you aren't gonna scare 200 hour guys off by threatening them with that one.

Jetstar and Pac Blue are the only game in town these days, so the real choice is whether to apply for Jetstar now ... or do 5 years in GA and then 5 years in Eagle and THEN apply for Jetstar

[remoak]

Yes you're right but it should not be doing it out of you the employee! The jetstar bean counters look at you the cadet as another revenue stream and will continue to milk you for it.

Of COURSE they do, it's their job to maximise profit and minimise costs. If they can get a return, they will. Cadet gets a type rating and experience in a decent airline, and after three years has great prospects. It's a win-win. What would the cadet be doing otherwise? Instructing for a fraction of what Jetstar will be paying him? Sweeping hangars? Taking it up the arse from some shonky GA operator?

Easy choice.

There is many other lines of aviation other than the airlines. I've operated for many good & better paying operations worldwide that you would call "GA" on better pay and conditions than the jetstar F/o package. Without poverty, risk taking or uncertainty.

Sure, but it is very much the exception rather than the rule.

Turbo prop F/o's in NZ are getting paid more than the direct entry jetstar F/o. You have better pay and conditions working for Mt Cook or Air Nelson, so your argument doesn't stack up to me!

And they are stuck on crappy turboprops with very few prospects. Once again, I know what I'd choose. Go the Jetstar route and you have a marketable type rating that will see you employed for as long as you have a medical.

Every airline/ATC in NZ has their ALPA council and is only as strong as the pilot group that you are involved with. Why do you think over the years these groups have negotiated fear deals for themselves? because they got together and worked as a team for a better deal. Something Remoak you don't seem to keen to do?

Well... no. I worked, until recently, for an admittedly small airline that had no ALPA representation, and in the time I was there, not a single visit from an ALPA rep. Your mis-spelling ("fear" deal) sums it up for me. I have, as a GA pilot, sought the help of NZALPA a couple of times... the response? Nada. Waste of space. If you don't fly something with a koru on the tail, they don't want to know you.

As it happens, I have been a member of a union for over 25 years (BALPA). They, by comparison, are worth every cent.

To think that after 3 years of the jetstar cadet scheme it will easier to get into Air NZ is to be hugely mistaken.

It will definitely be easier than going the GA route. Let's see... take a guy with lots of (say) PA31 time, no two-crew experience, lots of bad habits (from an airline point of view) and no experience on anything with turbines or inertia; or take a guy with three years A320 and six successful OPCs?

Another no brainer. Air NZ aren't stupid, they know who will be the greater training risk.

So if you are going to do the cadet scheme to having a plan of staying in NZ long term you will have poverty and uncertainty!

What planet are you on? No, you won't. After probably five years or so, you will have a command on a nice new jet, probably 15 years before you would with Air NZ. You will be on a salary in the region of 150K which, while not Air NZ levels, is certainly not poverty and is probably three times what you would be on if you had stayed in GA.

Yet another no-brainer.

he's reading the stuff from a couple of pages back about how much the guy in Emirates gets paid and thinking "wow a couple of years in Jetstar and I could have some of that". And you know what, he probably could.

Precisely.

You're right going to Jetstar might not improve their chances with Air NZ or QF, but get real, when's the last time they hired anyway. Or at least, hired more than half a dozen guys in a year. Awesome if your number comes up in THAT lottery but realistically you aren't gonna scare 200 hour guys off by threatening them with that one.

Jetstar and Pac Blue are the only game in town these days, so the real choice is whether to apply for Jetstar now ... or do 5 years in GA and then 5 years in Eagle and THEN apply for Jetstar

Couldn't agree more.

[grrowler]

After probably five years or so, you will have a command on a nice new jet

Not while they keep hiring DEC's desperate to get back home you won't. More likely you will get fed up with the DEC's and struggling to pay your bills, go to the sandpit for 15 years, and then get your command back in J* NZ, thus completing the cycle and shafting the new cadets. Well done!

[remoak]

They will only hire DECs until they have enough experienced F/Os to upgrade. I doubt the DEC recruitment will last more than a year, and by the time those cadets are ready for commands, DECs will be a distant memory.

[PhoenixNZ]

In all fairness I would guess that a lot of the posts here lack objectivity. Most of them seem to be from drivers who got to their current positions "the old way" and as such have their own personal objections to having a new way to get to the same location that may well be easier.

To those drivers who are sitting in the left seat for whatever airline and got there the old way I challenge you to answer this question honestly:

If when you started your aviation career there was an option to get into a program such as Jetstars, where you will end up with a F/O seat after limited hours in an aircraft that is incredibly popular and common around the world, would you say no simply because its not the "traditional" way to get into that aircraft.

Some of you have made an argument that the cadetships are bad for existing drivers and you may be right but only time will tell as these cadetships as yet have not had any direct impact on existing drivers (NOTE: AS YET THEY HAVEN'T because discussions on offshoring etc are still only discussions and not actually done yet).

Ultimately my priorities are simple:

1. Whats best for me and my family
2. Whats best for me and my family
3. Whats best for me and my family

Whats best for those existing drivers etc is something that they need to discuss between themsevles and their families and their unions. Whats best for the industry overall is for discussion between the airlines and the unions.

I dont think anyone should fear that being a F/O or Capt is ever going to become just a mediocre and low/mid pay job. If it ever did then airlines would find they have very very very few recruits owing to the fact that the cost of becoming a pilot far outweighs the rewards. Even the most hardcore of aviation enthusiasts will have a hard time justifying 100k of training for a 40k a year job.

At the end of the day I feel that most current drivers resent this change in the way one becomes a big shiny driver simply because it is change and because they feel it marginalises the effort and time they put in to getting where they are today. Thats understandable but also could be perceived as being petty. Life is all about change and all you can do is go with it.

Lastly to those who appear to be such experts on the recruitment policies of the various Australiasian airlines: I'm assuming you are all part of the HR dept of said airlines. Or alternatively your all ex Jetstar cadets who have applied for jobs with other airlines and been denied a job expressing because you were a Jetstar cadet?

If your neither of the above I'd love to hear how your qualified to state how a Jetstar cadetship would negatively impact anyones future career opportunities.

[Luke SkyToddler]

One thing that's still got my head scratching is, why are Rishworth involved in this at all? I just flat out don't believe, that they couldn't have found enough applicants for jobs by just advertising through the normal channels, and I can't understand why they would pay thousands of $$ worth of commission to an agency without a good reason.

Are we all absolutely dead set certain that this is legitimate recruitment to the regular Jetstar NZ employment contract, as opposed to, say, another attempt by the Aussie parent company to introduce those "group" contracts they are in so much legal hot water over at the moment? By paying you through Rishworth and so removing themselves one further step from the union and the EBA thing?

[remoak]

Well, sorry to have to tell you, angryrat, but the world has fundamentally changed during my career. Adapt or die (which rats are pretty good at, as it happens).

The day it changed was the day Southwest Airlines opened for business. It's never going to be the same.

They are about creating as many pilots as possible, getting cadets out there as F/O's,to fill up all the gaps in aviation. They don't care about their future's, it is about creating a surplus of pilots to fight over jobs. In the end, it doesn't cost them anything and lowers the amount they have to pay.

Hmmm. Tell you what... go and search the interweb and find out how many pilots are projected to be required over the next 20 years. Boeing says:

To operate and maintain the airplanes that will be added to the fleet over the next 20 years, the world's airlines will need an additional 466,650 trained pilots and 596,500 maintenance personnel... The largest growth in pilot populations will be in the Asia Pacific region, with a requirement for 180,600 pilots. Within Asia, China will experience the greatest need for pilots, with an expected requirement for 70,600 pilots. North America will need 97,350 pilots; Europe will need 94,800 pilots; Africa will need 13,200 pilots; the Middle East will need 32,700 pilots; Latin America will need 37,000 pilots; and the CIS will need 11,000 pilots.

Now go and work out the training capacity for all those new pilots. Guess what... supply doesn't even come close to matching demand. In fact it is going to be a major issue for airlines. Pilots are going to be in serious demand.

As far as pay goes, well it's market-led, and whenever there is a shortage of pilots, salaries go up, often dramatically. In my first job, my pay went up 37% in one year (1988) due to heavy competition for the available pilots. If Boeing and others are even close to correct, those days will likely return.

The "ploy", as you call it, hasn't had the effect you think it has in Europe. There are plenty of people working for lo-cos, on good salaries and very good working conditions. Not the cadets, I grant you, but most of the skippers are pretty happy with their lot.

So I'm afraid your argument doesn't add up.

[27/09]

PhoenixNZ

dont think anyone should fear that being a F/O or Capt is ever going to become just a mediocre and low/mid pay job. If it ever did then airlines would find they have very very very few recruits owing to the fact that the cost of becoming a pilot far outweighs the rewards. Even the most hardcore of aviation enthusiasts will have a hard time justifying 100k of training for a 40k a year job.

Just stop your argument right there.

What you are saying we shouldn't fear happening has happened. Isn't the Jetstar cadetship costing well over $100k including type rating and the pay only about $40k per year. It gets worse than that, in the home of cadetships, Europe, not only are cadets paying for their type ratings they are now paying for 500 hours line training. How long before this S**t comes to this part of the world. Where will it end?

PhoenixNZ, you're obviously new to aviation to be making some of the statements you've made.

I am not affected either way cadets or no cadets, BUT I do get annoyed when a scheme like this is being used to drive down terms and conditions in the aviation industry. People like you are being used as pawns to lower the standard of living of pilots while at the same time making some people in the training industry and some airline executives rich. Is it any surprise there is some vitriol towards this scheme?

I invite you to find out why this scheme was started? It certainly wasn't because there was a lack of pilots.

If your neither of the above I'd love to hear how your qualified to state how a Jetstar cadetship would negatively impact anyones future career opportunities.

Well that's a no brainer. It's going to affect your opportunities for a better lifestyle for a start.

Good luck to you for whatever you do or where ever you go. I would be very interested to see honest review of your thoughts on your aviation career progression and lifestyle in 5 or so years time.

[remoak]

Pilot shortage... I'll believe it when I see it, it has been coming forever

Well I've lived through two of them, trust me they are fun if you have experience...

[PhoenixNZ]

Just stop your argument right there.

What you are saying we shouldn't fear happening has happened. Isn't the Jetstar cadetship costing well over $100k including type rating and the pay only about $40k per year. It gets worse than that, in the home of cadetships, Europe, not only are cadets paying for their type ratings they are now paying for 500 hours line training. How long before this S**t comes to this part of the world. Where will it end?

I believe the starting rate for a JQ cadet is actually around $64k, not $40k. This is also a STARTING rate and not the same as what you could be expected to earn over the entire course of your career.

In a way JQ is making a gamble through this kind of program. They are taking people with virtually no experience and gambling that they will work out to be valuable pilots.

Part of the JQ cadets program actually has JQ paying around 25% of the program cost.

Jetstar will provide you with sponsorship (AUD 21K) towards the training costs of the ACP, provided you stay with Jetstar for 6 years. In addition to this Jetstar will fund (up front) the remaining costs of the ACP program - this will be repaid to Jetstar by cadets over a period of 6 years whilst you are employed as a pilot operating for Jetstar.

The above is from the JQ website.

So yes, you are paying for the majority of your training. Its not just a type rating BTW, its also CRM type training and skills training to help be sucessful in your career.

I'll be honest in that I dont know what the current 'normal' starting rate for a JQ F/O on a 320 is but effectively JQ is paying 21k to secure your services for six years.

And yes, JQ is most likely doing this as a cost cutting measure. Over the long term they get to employ F/O's on a lower starting rate than normal. In return however those F/Os gain considerable skills and experience which is able to be taken to any other airline they like. Skills and experience that they simply wont get if they instead spend those 6 years flying GA instead.

So its from my seat here a bit of give and take. You give up some starting pay in exchange for the experience that you simply wouldn't be able to get otherwise.

Well that's a no brainer. It's going to affect your opportunities for a better lifestyle for a start.

Pilot demand is on the rise and the amount that any driver gets paid is based on the oldest economic model of all: Supply and Demand.

Take the predictions from Boeing for example. Thats a hell of a lot of people that the airlines need to find who are willing to spend the 100k in order to fly the big shiny things. Not to mention the fact that not everyone who wants to be a pilot actually has the skills in order to be sucessful.

Demand then starts to outstrip supply. Airlines start to pay their drivers more in order to retain them.

No, I'll admit I'm not some expert in the aviation industry but I'm certainly clued up enough to know things like simple economics and HR principles. From the HR perspective: you hire the guy with the best skills along with the best attitude. I fully intend to be that guy so I personally have no concerns with having more competition for any jobs because I have enough confidence in myself that its simply not going to matter.

Also I'd be interested if you could find something that backed up the theory that cadet programs over the UK have resulted in a decline in pay for those beyond the cadets. Have the FO's or the Capts started taking pay drops because of the programs resulting in the increase in supply? I would doubt it for the simple reason that airlines have no interest in losing all that established experience. Not the mention the PR disaster when the public start thinking the guys in the cockpit are unhappy because of ongoing pay disputes.