JetStar NZ
I'm spoilt with the following layovers:
- jet lag
- back of the clock flying
- long boring sectors
- very little hands on flying, even if just for the takeoffs and landings
- living out of a suitcase
Halfpast3 - if your figures are anywhere near correct (?), and you put that extra $875 in the bank, over 10 years that is $600,000 with compound interest. If you lived in company accommodation, and were able to rent out your own house for $500 per week, that is another $350,000.
Justify it any way you want, but "the fish John West reject, fly for jet*"
Justify it any way you want, but "the fish John West reject, fly for jet*"
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The happiest pilot isn't the one earning the most money. halfpast3bus you sound like you have worked out what's important to you in life.
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it is no better than the guys who are Jetstar Cadets and jumping on that sub-par contract, as long as you are okay with them, then at least you apply the same standards to everyone.
Young pilots have a common tendency to climb over each other to get a gig. Some countries (notably Australia and NZ) tend to reinforce this tendency by playing on a young pilot's aspirations and extracting all kinds of free labour out of them, ie cleaning aircraft or sweeping out hangars, refuelling aircraft etc., all for no pay. This is commonly seen as being committed and prepared to go the extra mile, but it is, in fact, b*ll****.
Aviation as a whole would be a lot better off if these young guys showed a little professional pride and refused to pander to such operators, but it ain't ever going to happen.
So I have decided to have no issue with young guys jumping on crap contracts to get the gig. It's the way the world is.
I am, however, extremely proud of the fact that I have never bought a type rating, never paid for any sim time, and never worked for free.
There is a big difference between sweeping out the hangar after work and working for free in my view. If the boss goes the extra mile to look after me, I'll go the extra mile to look after him, how I have always worked since my first job in High School.
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So two veterans (Halfpast3bus and Remoak) have both been overseas and earned enough money to basically take up a retirement job in NZ.
Why do you now see fit to talk up the appalling Jetstar contract?
There are pilots who for some strange reason do not want to uproot their families and move overseas so that someday they can come home and take crap contracts as a fun retirement job. They have this unusual belief that the piloting profession can afford their skills and pay them a good salary in their own country. I find it quite laughable that a pair of returnees try and educate the current crop of pilots about what is an acceptable salary.
If you cast your mind back, why did you leave in the first place?
· Not given the opportunity to stay in NZ with a jet job
· Ansett NZ redundancy
· Shiny jet syndrome
· Other?
Now you come back and take up a job which, due to having been in a better situation elsewhere, enables you to live comfortably.
Good for you.
You are not the solution; you are actually part of the problem. Reverse S C A B S!
Why do you now see fit to talk up the appalling Jetstar contract?
There are pilots who for some strange reason do not want to uproot their families and move overseas so that someday they can come home and take crap contracts as a fun retirement job. They have this unusual belief that the piloting profession can afford their skills and pay them a good salary in their own country. I find it quite laughable that a pair of returnees try and educate the current crop of pilots about what is an acceptable salary.
If you cast your mind back, why did you leave in the first place?
· Not given the opportunity to stay in NZ with a jet job
· Ansett NZ redundancy
· Shiny jet syndrome
· Other?
Now you come back and take up a job which, due to having been in a better situation elsewhere, enables you to live comfortably.
Good for you.
You are not the solution; you are actually part of the problem. Reverse S C A B S!
What is the difference between being overseas and being at home?
Serious question. Is there some sort of boundry that others can see that I can't between one country and the next? Are the people fundamentally different? Do they deserve to operate in a protected vacuum?
How come the guy who gets off his bum and goes and does a job someone wants him to is judged on a moral basis? There is no difference between travelling from Auckland to Fiji, or from Hong Kong to Perth, or from Sydney to Perth or Auckland to Dunedin.
(I'm not talking about strike breakers here, just people moving about the planet working)
Serious question. Is there some sort of boundry that others can see that I can't between one country and the next? Are the people fundamentally different? Do they deserve to operate in a protected vacuum?
How come the guy who gets off his bum and goes and does a job someone wants him to is judged on a moral basis? There is no difference between travelling from Auckland to Fiji, or from Hong Kong to Perth, or from Sydney to Perth or Auckland to Dunedin.
(I'm not talking about strike breakers here, just people moving about the planet working)
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I find it quite laughable that a pair of returnees try and educate the current crop of pilots about what is an acceptable salary.
Wake up and smell the coffee. The days of the dinosaur legacy carriers are over. It's a brave new world, and the low-cost airlines can no longer afford the salaries that you seem to think are normal.
Now you come back and take up a job which, due to having been in a better situation elsewhere, enables you to live comfortably.
In any case, your premise is wrong. As much fun as I had overseas, and as good as the experience was, I also went through the experience of several carriers going broke while I was working for them... so I didn't come back rich.
You are not the solution; you are actually part of the problem. Reverse S C A B S!
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How many airline execs do you know have cut their remuneration due to the "current economic climate".
Is it zero because they don't have a ….......
Due to your desire to sacrifice remuneration for lifestyle to such an extent, and I doubt you are poor BTW, you have directly affected all future pilots in NZ. But it is just a retirement job anyway.
Is it zero because they don't have a ….......
Due to your desire to sacrifice remuneration for lifestyle to such an extent, and I doubt you are poor BTW, you have directly affected all future pilots in NZ. But it is just a retirement job anyway.
Last edited by What The; 24th Jul 2011 at 16:11.
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As someone who hopefully in a years time be a Jetstar cadet I've found this discussion quite interesting.
When I'm done with my Ab Initio training I have every intention of applying for the Jetstar Cadet program.
My thought process behind this is quite simple:
If I was to choose NOT to do the JQ cadets program then in all probability I will have to fight tooth and nail with every other 250 hour pilot with a CPL for one of the few charter GA type jobs out there. I wont get paid any more than I was compared to JQ and I'll have no 320 rating, no 320 hours and then have to fight again to get into an airline.
Taking a lower pay than my colleagues in the job is a small price to pay to get my career off to that sort of start.
When I'm done with my Ab Initio training I have every intention of applying for the Jetstar Cadet program.
My thought process behind this is quite simple:
- I get a rating on an aircraft in high use with airlines all over the world
- I get to start building hours on said aircraft with very low existing hours which for NZ and Australia is very very rare
- If, once I have enough hours to look at moving onto another airline, I dont like the conditions at JQ I can move on.
If I was to choose NOT to do the JQ cadets program then in all probability I will have to fight tooth and nail with every other 250 hour pilot with a CPL for one of the few charter GA type jobs out there. I wont get paid any more than I was compared to JQ and I'll have no 320 rating, no 320 hours and then have to fight again to get into an airline.
Taking a lower pay than my colleagues in the job is a small price to pay to get my career off to that sort of start.
So phoenix, where will you go if you quit jetstar?
Jetstar won't hire you back on a better contract, Virgin won't be any more likely to take you than a GA guy, Qantas (if they are hiring by then, or even still around) won't take you because you quit jetstar, Air NZ same as VB, so what are you going to do? Have to go overseas to somewhere like Europe, Asia etc. where these low hour cadetships actually have some traction.
Or go GA, and have the option of Jetstar, Virgin, Qantas, Air NZ, regionals, corporate aviation and so on. With jetstar you are putting all your eggs in a very rickety basket that is owned by a farmer who make no mistake is using you.
Jetstar won't hire you back on a better contract, Virgin won't be any more likely to take you than a GA guy, Qantas (if they are hiring by then, or even still around) won't take you because you quit jetstar, Air NZ same as VB, so what are you going to do? Have to go overseas to somewhere like Europe, Asia etc. where these low hour cadetships actually have some traction.
Or go GA, and have the option of Jetstar, Virgin, Qantas, Air NZ, regionals, corporate aviation and so on. With jetstar you are putting all your eggs in a very rickety basket that is owned by a farmer who make no mistake is using you.
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Phoenix. There are four documents you need to read.
First, the withdrawn
Read those documents vary carefully, particularly the policy one. Your employer pretty much owns you, and you can be dismissed for the slightest infringement. It can move you from base to base & country to country on a whim to suit its commercial objectives. Not only will you be living out of a suitcase for your career, you will be living without a home base. Nice for a few years, but not your working life. The home base is what keeps most of us sane.
In short, these are onerous T&C. Although they have been withdrawn, you can be assured they will resurface in various other contracts. This represents their "wishlist" - total ownership of your working life.
The final document is the Air Pilots 2010 Award. This is what I will call your "Dream document". In your career, you will dream that you can achieve those T&C at best, if you want to live in Australia or New Zealand. Those contract 250 hour CPL's who do the same as you will now be 2500 hour FO's fighting "tooth & nail" for a contract in Asia after you have been turfed from Jetstar. (Jetstar found others just like you who were willing to pay even more for their endorsement, and accepted even lower T&C your on).
Employers keep looking at people like you and say, why would I pay anyone more, perhaps I can pay less. Given that employers will make a profit from the endorsement & training process, they will continue to train & train & train. Once it becomes a source of revenue, it will be grown. This means there is every incentive to pump as many pilots through the pipeline as possible. This will flood the market with 2500 ~ 3500 hour FO's in Asia, all looking for that job to give them the command upgrade.
If this all sounds like a fantasy land, go and look at the CTC Wings thread Part 2, take the time to read all the first thread, and the second. All this has happened in Europe, and its all ended in tears & bankruptcy for the cadets. Take the day or so that will be required to read those threads, your future depends on it.
The promoter's who operate these schemes have made careers and fortunes out of people like you, they are selling you the concept of "getting ahead" to get you into debt bondage. They understand human nature & the folly of youth. These promoters are slick & clever, and eat the naive & gullible for breakfast.
Never come back to this forum & complain, I have handed you all you need to know on a silver platter, I have done the legwork, given you the information, but will you read it & comprehend the problem?
One further thing to think about an hopefully learn as you get older is, if something comes too easily & without effort, pain & sacrifice, it is because it was not really worth anything to begin with.
First, the withdrawn
Read those documents vary carefully, particularly the policy one. Your employer pretty much owns you, and you can be dismissed for the slightest infringement. It can move you from base to base & country to country on a whim to suit its commercial objectives. Not only will you be living out of a suitcase for your career, you will be living without a home base. Nice for a few years, but not your working life. The home base is what keeps most of us sane.
In short, these are onerous T&C. Although they have been withdrawn, you can be assured they will resurface in various other contracts. This represents their "wishlist" - total ownership of your working life.
The final document is the Air Pilots 2010 Award. This is what I will call your "Dream document". In your career, you will dream that you can achieve those T&C at best, if you want to live in Australia or New Zealand. Those contract 250 hour CPL's who do the same as you will now be 2500 hour FO's fighting "tooth & nail" for a contract in Asia after you have been turfed from Jetstar. (Jetstar found others just like you who were willing to pay even more for their endorsement, and accepted even lower T&C your on).
Employers keep looking at people like you and say, why would I pay anyone more, perhaps I can pay less. Given that employers will make a profit from the endorsement & training process, they will continue to train & train & train. Once it becomes a source of revenue, it will be grown. This means there is every incentive to pump as many pilots through the pipeline as possible. This will flood the market with 2500 ~ 3500 hour FO's in Asia, all looking for that job to give them the command upgrade.
If this all sounds like a fantasy land, go and look at the CTC Wings thread Part 2, take the time to read all the first thread, and the second. All this has happened in Europe, and its all ended in tears & bankruptcy for the cadets. Take the day or so that will be required to read those threads, your future depends on it.
The promoter's who operate these schemes have made careers and fortunes out of people like you, they are selling you the concept of "getting ahead" to get you into debt bondage. They understand human nature & the folly of youth. These promoters are slick & clever, and eat the naive & gullible for breakfast.
Never come back to this forum & complain, I have handed you all you need to know on a silver platter, I have done the legwork, given you the information, but will you read it & comprehend the problem?
One further thing to think about an hopefully learn as you get older is, if something comes too easily & without effort, pain & sacrifice, it is because it was not really worth anything to begin with.
Last edited by breakfastburrito; 24th Jul 2011 at 22:47.
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Read those documents vary carefully, particularly the policy one. Your employer pretty much owns you, and you can be dismissed for the slightest infringement. It can move you from base to base & country to country on a whim to suit its commercial objectives. Not only will you be living out of a suitcase for your career, you will be living without a home base. Nice for a few years, but not your working life. The home base is what keeps most of us sane.
Yes you can be dismissed for infringements, just like any other job in the world where you dont meet the requirements for the role and/or break any reasonable rules set down by the employer.
So phoenix, where will you go if you quit jetstar?
Jetstar won't hire you back on a better contract, Virgin won't be any more likely to take you than a GA guy, Qantas (if they are hiring by then, or even still around) won't take you because you quit jetstar, Air NZ same as VB, so what are you going to do? Have to go overseas to somewhere like Europe, Asia etc. where these low hour cadetships actually have some traction.
Jetstar won't hire you back on a better contract, Virgin won't be any more likely to take you than a GA guy, Qantas (if they are hiring by then, or even still around) won't take you because you quit jetstar, Air NZ same as VB, so what are you going to do? Have to go overseas to somewhere like Europe, Asia etc. where these low hour cadetships actually have some traction.
Two pilots apply for a job.
One of them has 3000 hours from mostly GA background. They have some airline experience from flying turbo-props.
One of them has 3000 hours from an airline background. The majority of their hours are on the type that you just so happen to fly.
Now what your saying is that they both have an equal shot at the job despite the fact that GA pilot is going to require considerably more investment to train up to standard than the JQ pilot. What sort of business runs this way?
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"Taking a lower pay than my colleagues in the job is a small price to pay to get my career off to that sort of start."
CLASSIC!
If you're not already, you'd do well in airline middle management.
If all professional pilots were this cheap we'd be overnighting at the Mangere Bridge backpackers where the only draught on tap is a hand shandy from the local cleaner.
CLASSIC!
If you're not already, you'd do well in airline middle management.
If all professional pilots were this cheap we'd be overnighting at the Mangere Bridge backpackers where the only draught on tap is a hand shandy from the local cleaner.
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Phoenix, BB has provided you with some very sound and solid advice, the sort of input that money can't buy these days, especially this bit -
Good luck with your endeavours.
if something comes too easily & without effort, pain & sacrifice, it is because it was not really worth anything to begin with.
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Phoenix, BB has provided you with some very sound and solid advice, the sort of input that money can't buy these days, especially this bit -
Quote:
if something comes too easily & without effort, pain & sacrifice, it is because it was not really worth anything to begin with.
Good luck with your endeavours.
Quote:
if something comes too easily & without effort, pain & sacrifice, it is because it was not really worth anything to begin with.
Good luck with your endeavours.
I'm now a fulltime student on a student allowance which doesn't actually cover my bills. We are using our hard earned savings to support us while I'm studying. I have no money to take my wife and daughter out for a nice day at the zoo or anything like that. Its going to be this way until at least Oct next year.
No, no sacrifice or pain or effort there at all.
Please dont presume to know who I am or what my situation is and judge whether or not I'm putting in the hard yards to get to where I want to be.
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How many airline execs do you know have cut their remuneration due to the "current economic climate".
Really good execs are worth a great deal, and there aren't that many of them. Pilots, on the other hand, are relatively common.
Some airline execs have cut their salaries in the last few years (most notably in the UK and the USA). Probably not in Jetstar though (yet).
Some examples:
When Japan Airlines hit hard times in 2009 and began to lay off its staff, JAL CEO Haruka Nishimatsu cut his own pay to less than that of his pilots and eliminated all his perks. He now rides public transit to the office and eats in the employee cafeteria, standing in line with his colleagues.
Southwest Airlines CEO, Gary Kelly has voluntarily cut his 2009 base salary by 10 percent citing the company’s first-quarter results, the low-cost carrier announced in a proxy statement, filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission on Friday... most senior managers are accepting a pay freeze.
CEO Timothy Hoeksema will accept a pay cut of 40% as Midwest Airlines attempts to cut costs.
etc etc etc...
you have directly affected all future pilots in NZ
It's pretty easy being critical of people taking the Jetstar deal from the left seat of something with a koru on the tail (or another similar airline). It would be fascinating to see what you would do if you were made redundant tomorrow. Somehow I doubt you'd be sitting there jobless, taking a prod at Jetstar while living on the dole...
BTW just to make it clear, I'm only commenting on the DEC deal, the cadet thing is a whole other ball of wax.
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Does it really matter if REMOAK takes up a deal with Jetstar NZ?????
I potentially face redundancy at the Q, and don't have too many brilliant ideas about where to go if it doesn't quite work out.
I can imagine though if I was a native kiwi and living in DBX or similar, the prospect of returning home in rank as a Captain and being with family, having some kind of lifestyle might be a lot more persuasive than the actual terms of the agreement. Never say never in this caper. I threw my CV in the bin when I got into Qantas. Now I might just have to dust the bloody thing off and go through it all again just to start at the bottom somewhere else.
As I continue to say, the proposed Jetstar expansion is going to require a shedload of pilots from somewhere, which can't be supplied by cadets or pilots returning home.
I'm not missing the effect this could have on T&C's if people start taking up the offer because it is offensive but if someone wants to come home on that deal let them be at peace.
I potentially face redundancy at the Q, and don't have too many brilliant ideas about where to go if it doesn't quite work out.
I can imagine though if I was a native kiwi and living in DBX or similar, the prospect of returning home in rank as a Captain and being with family, having some kind of lifestyle might be a lot more persuasive than the actual terms of the agreement. Never say never in this caper. I threw my CV in the bin when I got into Qantas. Now I might just have to dust the bloody thing off and go through it all again just to start at the bottom somewhere else.
As I continue to say, the proposed Jetstar expansion is going to require a shedload of pilots from somewhere, which can't be supplied by cadets or pilots returning home.
I'm not missing the effect this could have on T&C's if people start taking up the offer because it is offensive but if someone wants to come home on that deal let them be at peace.
PhoenixNZ
One problem you will have as a Jetstar cadet is a potential lack of P in C time. Most airlines hire future Captains. You need an ATPL to become a Captain, but without sufficient P in C time you cannot get an ATPL. The GA pilot will have this P in C time, something the 3000 hour Jetstar cadet probably wont have.
Besides most airline put all new hires through their standard line training programme to ensure consistency with their SOP's etc, so the cost of training a 3000 hour pilot with a GA turbo prop background is not going to be much different to a 3000 hour pilot from another airline.
Two pilots apply for a job.
One of them has 3000 hours from mostly GA background. They have some airline experience from flying turbo-props.
One of them has 3000 hours from an airline background. The majority of their hours are on the type that you just so happen to fly.
Now what your saying is that they both have an equal shot at the job despite the fact that GA pilot is going to require considerably more investment to train up to standard than the JQ pilot. What sort of business runs this way?
One of them has 3000 hours from mostly GA background. They have some airline experience from flying turbo-props.
One of them has 3000 hours from an airline background. The majority of their hours are on the type that you just so happen to fly.
Now what your saying is that they both have an equal shot at the job despite the fact that GA pilot is going to require considerably more investment to train up to standard than the JQ pilot. What sort of business runs this way?
Besides most airline put all new hires through their standard line training programme to ensure consistency with their SOP's etc, so the cost of training a 3000 hour pilot with a GA turbo prop background is not going to be much different to a 3000 hour pilot from another airline.
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A current JQ 320 Capt NZ nets on average, NZD $8500 Per month doing 80-90 hours per month ( nearer 90 ). 10 days off per month and 9 hours average duty per work day. Including flight pay, but not including bonus.
Mates in the sand pit ( EK ) net around 12,000 NZD per month ( thanks to tanking USD ) plus accommodation provided. So that's ( based on a 4 week month ) NZD $ 2,125 per week Jetstar vs NZD $3,000 per week EK. Difference , 875 per week.
Mates in the sand pit ( EK ) net around 12,000 NZD per month ( thanks to tanking USD ) plus accommodation provided. So that's ( based on a 4 week month ) NZD $ 2,125 per week Jetstar vs NZD $3,000 per week EK. Difference , 875 per week.
This is not meant as a comparison to other offers or to justify the contract. Simply to refute the above information that Captains get $8500 NZD per month NET working for Jetstar NZ.
Thay are ALL working hard and at 90hrs as you quoted they are getting at least NZD$10500 NET This is backed up from the NZ Inland Revenue Department website based on previous figures provided and your 90 hr number.
If you take the 20K bonus taxed at the highest rate of 33% plus 2% ACC earners levie (off the IRD website) this NET's 13k so you can assume another 1k per month which makes it 11,500 NZD NET at least. The 20K has been paid in full for the last two years.
Some are doing 100 hrs a month so the 90 hrs average seems fair.
Once again, not condoning the contract.