Jetstar to start recruiting

['holic]

Fair point, SN, I am in the union for myself, as we all are to a certain extent. But at the same time, I also want to see a good result for other union members. I want to see the company treat all employees in a fair manner, and not make me feel like the whole EBA negotiation process is being dragged along by a piece of rope tied to my balls.

For example, it makes no difference to me if I'm undercut by Australian J* pilots flying 330s based in Australia, or contract pilots flying 330s based in SIN. But I'm happy to see union resources spent securing those jobs for J* pilots because they are already in the group.

I accept that sometimes decisions get made which will have an adverse effect on me, but which are for the greater good. All I've seen from some blokes on this forum who've been in the union for 10 minutes is a lot of demanding and pontificating, when a lot of what they're demanding isn't achievable or legal. And 9 times out of 10 they haven't even bothered to pick up the phone and call AIPA to get first hand info.

In fact it was the very first who were in this "just for themselves" that forgot about those starting from "X date forward" that started this very process and we all know who they are.

Sorry, I don't. Care to expand on that.

[The Green Goblin]

From what I hear, most who have been offered the contract have declined.

Too bloody right.

This is unethical, unjust and akin to corporate bullying. Why hire 3 part time Pilots when you can hire 2 full timers? The real crux is they are trying to get an FO for 60k and are only paying them for their rostered flying and not standby. They still expect them to be available however and need to approve ANY outside employment other than Jetstar.

Some have been rang a few times by Jetstar trying to sell them the job. Next you'll have telemarketers from India ringing you!

[The Kelpie]

Part time should mean part time, and that means part time duty, part time availability on the roster, pro-rata standby days per roster and should mean Pro-rata FDL availability to allow you seek employment elsewhere.

By insisting that the whole of your FDL is reserved for Jetstar use only they are essentially taking away you ability to supplement your part time income in your profession elsewhere.

Unfortunately Jetstar do not understand this concept. JQ want all the benefits of full time employees at Part Time commitment from them.

C'mon Jetstar you are not on.

Well Done to the guys who have seen this joke of a contract for what it is and said NO!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[SOPS]

How did our industry come to this????.....Wait, I think I remember when it began....I am just not allowed to discuss it here...... The words reap and sow come to mind however.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

'holic
No probs. The only points I would make are;

1/ I have seen a few pilot groups sign off on an EBA that gives that group a better deal than say anyone who starts with the company from that date on. I personally don't believe in this its just not a good look. I personally believe that when this started to happen, and that was well before I started out, that was the beginning of what we have come to today.

2/ I am a union member and have been for over 12 years. I have never had to use their resources except when negotiating an EBA. On those occasions they were very helpful to the point of being instrumental to the outcome. The thing is this situation has been cooking for a long time. If everybody joined the union today it would still take a long time and one hell of a fight to reverse the trend.

Over the years pilots have allowed themselves to become a fragmented group. I my opinion we need a good award to create a benchmark for the various EBA's. That document should cover everyone from the bottom of GA to the top of the airlines. If that happened we would all be one group fighting one cause and looking out for each other. We would be empowered by our shear weight of numbers.

I made the comment in my prev post about "we all know who they are". That was not meant to offend I was referring to the era rather than any individual. Like you I do not like to see this level of degradation of our T & C's as once the rot sets in it tends to infect other sectors. It also makes it hard to move up to an airline job if you have to take a pay cut!
SN

[Roxy_Chick_1989]

I cant believe this is what I have to look forward to throughout my aviation career, well actually I can.

[The Green Goblin]

I wouldn't normally post this however this is too important not too.

I'd suggest now is the time for every Pilot in Australia to join a union, and fight the good fight.

As far as I'm concerned it's them vs us. It's time to get rid of these blow ins from our industry that we love and hold so dear.

From The AFAP

Last week pilot reps Darren Davis, Tony Walker and I attended a meeting with Company
management (Mark Rindfleish and David Hall) in Melbourne.
At this meeting the company advised that it intended to employ approximately 50 new First Officers
under individual employment contracts with a company called Jetstar Group Pty Limited – not under
the Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2008 (“Jetstar EBA”) of which Jetstar Airways Pty Limited is a
party.
Jetstar Group Pty Limited is the company which recently offered individual contracts to a number of
cadets (see AFAP Airwaves April 2011 edition for further details on the cadet contracts).
On Friday last week (6 May 2011) the company sent out copies of the proposed individual
employment contracts with Jetstar Group Pty Limited to a large number of pilots on the Jetstar “hold
file” and asked for an indication of their interest by Monday this week.
The Jetstar Council and AFAP have grave concerns over these Jetstar Group Pty Limited individual
employment contracts. The proposed contract is deficient compared to the Jetstar EBA in almost
every regard. By way of example, the Jetstar Group Pty Limited individual contract:
 Deems the pilot to be part-time although required to be available Monday to Sunday;
 Is read in conjunction with a document titled Jetstar Group Pilot Policy which may be
changed at the “absolute discretion” of the company;
 Provides for a minimum wage of just $60,600 for an A320 F/O (the minimum base salary
under the Jetstar EBA is $87,262);
 Does not provide for wage increases (only an annual review at the discretion of Jetstar);
 Uses block hours, not credit hours, for the payment of salary;
 Provides a minimum 9 days off per month (not 11 as per the Jetstar EBA);
 Defines a day off as a twenty four hour period free of duty;
 Provides for a lower payment when working on a day off compared to the Jetstar EBA;
 Has 3 hour buffers either side of the original duty when displaced;
 Provides for a three year $40k bond/repayment agreement for training costs;
 Seeks to absorb all entitlements, benefits or payments under the award or other industrial
instrument into the hourly rate for each block hour;
 Pays lower meal allowance amounts than the Jetstar EBA and Award;
 Does not guarantee airport parking; and
 The list goes on.
As we have previously stated, this type of avoidance of collective agreement obligations by the
creation of separate employing companies is a threat to all pilots in Australia.Today we were scheduled to hold a JPCC meeting in Melbourne. On 5 May 2011 we notified the
company that a representative of the AFAP and AIPA would also be attending the meeting. Despite
this, upon arrival the company refused to commence the meeting if either representative remained
present. We stressed that we wanted to meet and discuss the issues but that we also wanted our
respective industrial representatives present (Simon Lutton from the AFAP and Kristian Bolwell from
AIPA). The company refused the request and simply walked out.
We have previously expressed to management our strong objection to the employment of pilots by
Jetstar Group Pty Limited under these individual contracts (and not by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited
under the Jetstar EBA).
It is clear to us that the company has made up its mind and is determined to persist with these
disgraceful individual employment contracts.
Since the initiation of the Jetstar cadet contracts a couple of weeks ago, Simon Lutton (AFAP) and I
have also been meeting with Senior Counsel and a solicitor engaged by the AFAP to discuss all
available legal remedies and options to protect your interests.
Rest assured we are exploring every possible step to resist and overcome this attack upon your
collective agreement.
We will keep you informed of developments.
In the meantime I ask that you distribute this newsletter to your colleagues and if they are not a
union member, please encourage them to join the AFAP as soon as possible. We need as much
support and unity from the Jetstar pilot group as possible at this time.
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact me on [email protected] and/or
Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph [phone] or mobile [phone].
Regards
Captain Ben Bollen
AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair

[eocvictim]

I know there are more than a few guys still bitter over the inception of Jetstar and the introduction of LCC to Australia but thumbing your nose and saying "I told you so" wont give you impunity.

Ok anyone with more forethought than what's for diner could have foretold this situation; however here we are. This problem and the sound future of the aviation industry will not be resolved without unity. As said, unity throughout the ranks and the recognition of everyones choice for whom they work.

Remember not everyone likes the prospect of being an SO for 10 years, not everyone wants to fly Long haul, not everyone wants to fly pax, not everyone wants to fly ILS to ILS, not everyone wants to have to overnight and not everyone wants to fly a jet (what a crazy prospect, musta been a QF reject!)

The attitude of the aviation industry towards those who choose not fly for an airline is akin to ousting a rural doctor for not becoming a neurosurgeon. It's that attitude that keeps the rest of us from backing you through crisis. Unfortunately we're all in it together from C&T on a 380 to a CPL in a 210, those who stand strong by their laurels and those that will step over their own mother to get that next gig.

I sound like a ******* preacher.

[KRUSTY 34]

A Country Doctor to a Neurosurgeon. What a great analogy eocvictim. Something that all pilots should think about.

I'll tell you one thing, JQ management have more front than Ned Kelly, and they may just end up the same way. Metaphorically of course. They did a serious about face with the 4 CPL Cadets during the Senate Enquiry, but it seems that once out of the spotlight it's full speed ahead, and damn the legal niceities!

Get behind the Union boys and girls. JQ have shown you in no uncertain terms they are Hell bent on destroying your careers. A lot has been said about employment freezes, saying no to substandard contracts, and the like. But anyone saying yes to this latest bastardisation, really do need to have their head's read!

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks eovictim. Believe it or not I actually got it, but on re-reading my post It probably didn't come across that way.

Jetstar are pricing themselves out of the "professional" pilot market. Bit hard for some wanabees to get their heads around I know, but think about it. Despite what they tell (lie) to prospective Cadet pilots, they are employing apprentices, with a view to turning them into indentured tradespeople at best. Tradespeople I may add that are on the whole remunerated and treated more poorly than many of their Earth-bound cousins. Tradespeople, that are stuck with the sh!t sandwich because they are too specialised and/or poor to break their existing contract and seek employment elsewhere.

This will be the Jetstar legacy to Australian Professional Aviation.

The real professional pilots will find their nich with operators that cannot afford to have inexperienced and disaffected individuals in their cockpits, and will either pay accordingly, or go out of business.

Irony can be quite ironic sometimes.

[Mr.Bloggs]

Fight guys

I've always admired you Aussies as being fair-minded and strong folk. (Flew with folk from both sides of the Ansett fight and have some background knowledge, although a Brit myself).

It seems like greed is getting the better of some of your people now, both in Jetstar management and in new hires. Hope you established pilots stand up to this nasty and manipulative management. They will try to divide and conquer; SOP for these b......s.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Krusty
Don't you worry, if this is allowed to get up it will infect the rest of the aviation sector so fast we won't no what happened. Still thats OK I have a trade to fall back on if gets that untidy. I'll look after myself because no one else will GAS.

If taking 60K is "just looking out for yourself" well ain't that just a dandy deal. Bring on the uninitiated this will be a baptism of fire. What a happy bunch they'll be. Sure they'll get the chicks but they will still have to explain why they drive a 77 Torana thats just been defected due rust!

SN

[tryhard1]

If taking 60K is "just looking out for yourself" well ain't that just a dandy deal. Bring on the uninitiated this will be a baptism of fire. What a happy bunch they'll be. Sure they'll get the chicks but they will still have to explain why they drive a 77 Torana thats just been defected due rust!

And why they also still need to live at home with mum and dad... who are proud of their child by the way for flying a shinny jet aircraft!

[OneDotLow]

Has anyone got the link to that you tube video of the kid wanting to be a Jetstar Pilot cadet?

It looks like it has been removed from youtube.

He said he was going to be on 70K a year, but obviously he signed before he saw the conditions!

[Oldmate]

These guys will be good on the radio, because I would hope they will never be given a sector.

[chockchucker]

Seems to me it's the Qantas/Jetstar management that are on a 'kamakaze' course of action as opposed to the unions.................

The Jetstar war on pilots
May 14, 2011 – 8:00 am, by Ben Sandilands

It is normal for companies to try and pay employees as little as possible, and eradicate the higher paid for the lower paid.

That’s one of the facts of life in business.

But reading the new permanent part time pilot agreements on offer by Jetstar raises three obvious questions.

Does the company understand that without ‘engaged’ pilots it risks its future?
Why work for anyone that despises you, and
Why would anyone put up with this in an airline industry in which more successful carriers like Singapore Airlines and Emirates, despite their claimed labor relations issues, place a richer, longer term value on pilots, and continue to eat Qantas and Jetstar?

These are some of the acts of self harm new pilots commit if they accept the Jetstar arrangement.

They are liable to dismissal for any reason in the first year, involving the double penalty of losing their job and having to repay around $40,000 in the costs of being trained to fly A320s.
They can be moved anywhere in the Jetstar franchises, including Singapore and New Zealand and not just between Jetstar’s Australian bases
Overseas resettlement at Jetstar’s discretion may involve being paid less than in Australia taking into account different industrial conditions

The contracts are permanent part-time deals, guaranteeing a minimum 600 hours flying duty a year which is around 300 hours less than pilots employed under the current Jetstar Australian EBA which expires in 2013.

In its defence, Jetstar says the pilots can expect to fly around 800 hours a year minimum and insists that the new part time agreements disadvantage no-one.

Jetstar also says it is seeking more flexible pilot arrangements to better match the seasonality of travel demand across its franchises and within Australia.

One of the Jetstar pilots who analysed the new contracts calculated that a flight attendant performing 1320 duty hours a year on the current cabin manager EBA would earn $63,204, while on 600 hours flight duty time a Jetstar cadet pilot would make $65,040 and a first officer $68,400.

Cabin attendants work hard for their money and also play a critical role in the safety of an aircraft in an emergency, however very few if any airlines in the world have such a low differential in the value they place on pilots and flight attendants.

It can be argued that these figures are further evidence that Jetstar management is so disengaged from the technical realities of airline operations that it sees pilots as just another labor unit of no exceptional worth.

In the big picture these part time contracts tell us more about the pitiful self loathing that the board and management of the Qantas Group has for the Australian business it keeps denigrating as unprofitable, unsustainable, and one gathers, all too difficult to run as a competitive enterprise under Australian rules.

With these sort of attitudes is it surprising that Qantas as a group is imploding, a process hastened by cross subsidising Jetstar to make its figures look acceptable without regard to a reality that much depends on taking jets and costs off the full service brand the company says it can’t afford to run.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

In good times they may well be flying about 800 hours per year. But I think Qantas wants to get the level of flexibility that Tiger has. ie If we have to reduce capacity due to a market downturn then ALL our costs come down and we maintain our margins. Like power by the hour engine hire.

From a pilots point of view this does not allow for a decent reliable living. I am still in GA, albeit at the top end, and I would have to take a cut of 47K to go there. Its not like your going to get a command any time soon either. That and the fact they can send you wherever whenever makes it a no go. Not even close. Looks to me like they are looking to tranform their labour dynamic completely over the next 20 years or so.

Pilots will be looked upon as desperate individuals with no pride and low value skills.
SN

[waren9]

You're on to it SN.

A good job in GA is the place to be.

[The Green Machine]

Ecovictim,
If we all could apply what your suggest in your posts, UNITY, we woulds all be in a much better position. Cheers to you Buddy

[Chadzat]

TO ANY POTENTIAL CANDIDATE READING THIS THREAD AND STILL CONSIDERING APPLYING-

Read this link!

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...mpilation.html

The whole idea of a job is to work the least for the most amount of pay. Its pretty simple.

Check out the pay figures above and have a think about the fact that you will be getting paid LESS than 46 seat turboprop F/O's.

The decision should make itself.