Jetstar to start recruiting
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If it's part time they aren't going to get many days out of the pilot pool. It would be 22 hours per week for a max of 12 days a month. If they increase above that then leave days would have to increase.
Sound like it part-time nod nod, wink wink.
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Because the award is the minimum standard and it has 42 days leave. If they employ on a part time basis the component items can be reduced in a relative amount, ie if the award is for 20 days a month a part time empoyee at a 50% rate would be 10 days a month etc. An employer can't just say it is employing someone part time then program them for 20 days. If they did the employee would be entitled to the full amounts.
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From news.com.au by Tim Vollmer
Some of the comments. I need to leave this country I'm getting embarrassed
Few cadet or Jetstar staff members in amongst the comments. They've probably employed a team of children from manilla to write positive things and attempt to influence public opinion.
Where are those guys that got Osama.. I wonder if they're busy..
Trainee pilots in the cockpits with Jetstar's domestic flights | News.com.au
JETSTAR passenger services are being flown by trainee pilots with as little as 200 hours experience, according to the pilots' association.
The cadets are employed on part-time contracts which guarantee just $57,600 a year - with no pay rise for six years - and require them to pay the airline $10,500 a year for on-the-job training costs.
If they wish to resign after less than six years with Jetstar, their contracts require they pay up to $10,000.
Trainees under the program are currently co-piloting Airbus A320s between Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.
Most are unable to legally fly to New Zealand, where the requirement for commercial pilots is 500 hours experience.
Australian and International Pilots Association vice-president Richard Woodward accused Jetstar of trying to make young pilots "financial prisoners of the airline".
"This program is putting a person with about the same number of hours it takes to drive a car in the right hand seat of the cockpit," he said.
"Jetstar is creating a 'B scale' for pilots because they're part-time employees."
Jetstar denied the claims and said the program provided an "excellent career opportunity. In the past, becoming a pilot has been extremely expensive and has taken many years of flying in general aviation," a spokeswoman said.
"[It] makes becoming a pilot more accessible."
Jetstar said the program, launched late last year, would "deliver enhanced safety outcomes as it is based on ensuring pilot competency, with the pilots trained in Jetstar procedures ... from day one."
Read more: Trainee pilots in the cockpits with Jetstar's domestic flights | News.com.au
JETSTAR passenger services are being flown by trainee pilots with as little as 200 hours experience, according to the pilots' association.
The cadets are employed on part-time contracts which guarantee just $57,600 a year - with no pay rise for six years - and require them to pay the airline $10,500 a year for on-the-job training costs.
If they wish to resign after less than six years with Jetstar, their contracts require they pay up to $10,000.
Trainees under the program are currently co-piloting Airbus A320s between Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.
Most are unable to legally fly to New Zealand, where the requirement for commercial pilots is 500 hours experience.
Australian and International Pilots Association vice-president Richard Woodward accused Jetstar of trying to make young pilots "financial prisoners of the airline".
"This program is putting a person with about the same number of hours it takes to drive a car in the right hand seat of the cockpit," he said.
"Jetstar is creating a 'B scale' for pilots because they're part-time employees."
Jetstar denied the claims and said the program provided an "excellent career opportunity. In the past, becoming a pilot has been extremely expensive and has taken many years of flying in general aviation," a spokeswoman said.
"[It] makes becoming a pilot more accessible."
Jetstar said the program, launched late last year, would "deliver enhanced safety outcomes as it is based on ensuring pilot competency, with the pilots trained in Jetstar procedures ... from day one."
Read more: Trainee pilots in the cockpits with Jetstar's domestic flights | News.com.au
Comments on this story
Shaz of Perth Posted at 9:11 AM May 05, 2011
And the company oath is taught on the first day..."Attention all passengers, this flight has been delayed...no wait, make that cancelled..."
Comment 1 of 30
SA Dave Posted at 9:16 AM May 05, 2011
What a joke... It might be 200 Hours but that is 200 hours of flying a Turbine engine plane.... They have been flying for year at that stage! and it is only the next step... they have already spent thousands of dollars traning to get to that level!
Comment 2 of 30
nic marandola of melbourne Posted at 9:17 AM May 05, 2011
it's time the authorities put a stop to airlines putting profit making over public safety - otherwise what is the point of having them!!
Comment 3 of 30
Mere Male of Lara Posted at 9:20 AM May 05, 2011
Better they learn to fly at Jetstar, and make their mistakes there, before getting a real job as a pilot at my carrier of choice, Qantas :-)
Comment 4 of 30
David of Adelaide Posted at 9:22 AM May 05, 2011
As a pilot, I think people have to understand just how hard it is to become a pilot, If they can pass all flight tests and exams in the time determined by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, and pass their Jet training then they are more than capable of on the job training. Trying to find a job in Aviation is extremely hard, and every pilot I know, would do anything for a job, If they're happy to fly under those conditions that is their choice. You have to start at the bottom!
Comment 5 of 30
Jason of Perth Posted at 9:24 AM May 05, 2011
I got out of the industry myself as the pay is crap, the hours suck and there isn't really any job stability but I believe this can only be a good thing as I spent a small fortune on flying and this is nothing in comparasion for real experience early on in your career. Lets face it most pilots that end up in an airline position have 1500+ hours in small aircraft anyway, so why not start early? plenty of airlines offer this program around the world but don't actually pay you a wage so it's nothing new.
Comment 6 of 30
TS Posted at 9:37 AM May 05, 2011
And I'd bet that they are the most decent and competent employees that one could ever meet at this company.
Comment 7 of 30
The Fatman of Brisbane Posted at 9:43 AM May 05, 2011
So what. The onboard computer systems can do everything except the first part of take-off and the last 30 metres to landing. Could probably do that too but we know from the UK the driverless trains freaked people out.
Comment 8 of 30
Lexi of Brisbane Posted at 9:44 AM May 05, 2011
What exactly is the problem here? How do you get flight experience without flying? A320's practically fly themselves anyway.
Comment 9 of 30
Frequent Flier but not on Jetstar Posted at 9:48 AM May 05, 2011
Just like driving a bus, you get what you pay for, a Learner (who makes mistakes), a Provisional (who makes less mistakes) or a full and Open class driver with experience who is very unlikely to make any mistakes. It's the flying passengers who take the risk and CASA who should be accountable to regulate pilots with experience commensurate with the responsibility for the lives on board. As soon as one goes in there will be hell to pay.
Comment 10 of 30
MB Posted at 9:49 AM May 05, 2011
"This program is putting a person with about the same number of hours it takes to drive a car in the right hand seat of the cockpit," where did that come from the requriement is 50 hours and only if you do the log book method in the act. 200 hours is a lot of time and thier are always 2 pilots. after 50 hours of flying most people can achieve the private license. the other 150 hours will all be solo\ in command, and this doesnt even touch on how much book study is required. this sounds like a great way to get into commerical flying the only other organisation that pays for flying is qantas and the ADF (you owe the ADF 11-14 years if you go pilot)
Comment 11 of 30
Chris of Perth Posted at 9:52 AM May 05, 2011
Bonding of pilots is not uncommon in airlines to discourage movement to other companies after expensive training. The bonding by can be in the form of requiring a bank guarantee, one major Asian airline demanded $180,000 for a period of 5yrs after training on a different type of aircraft despite having 15,000hrs experience on heavy jets. Local trainee pilots on another Asian airline have been bonded for 13yrs, their training taking 2yrs before becoming a productive First Officer.
Comment 12 of 30
Bob of up north Posted at 9:52 AM May 05, 2011
Co pilots...so they don't land, take off or have control in an emergency.
Comment 13 of 30
Mike Hunty of QLD Posted at 9:55 AM May 05, 2011
I've logged 160 hours in single engine Piper Cherokees..I'll give these fancy Airbus things a try, where do i send my resume?
Comment 14 of 30
Jetstar of Melbourne Posted at 9:58 AM May 05, 2011
shaz - we all are comediams - some just not as funny as others.....Good to see Mr Woodward back in news trying to stir the pot again. Obviously a slow week for him. I'm sure he realises that Cadets have been in the industry since the 60s - and in fact they came straight out of training into Qantas with little more hours than what this article is stating. Furthermore, if the saftey of these pilots is an issue, why doesn't CASA or our fantasic government department of transport ban them now ! No evidence to suggest that they are of concern me thinks.
Comment 15 of 30
David of Brisbane Posted at 10:00 AM May 05, 2011
That explains the burnout on the runway and the magnetic P Plate on the back
Comment 16 of 30
Storman of Perth Posted at 10:03 AM May 05, 2011
Right...so if they are never co-pilots how are they supposed to get experiences in airbuses etc...theats like saying a draft pick can only practice in a simulated environment, but then have to make their debut in a premiership team with real life experience....so what!!
Comment 17 of 30
Ozshanel of Sydney Posted at 10:06 AM May 05, 2011
Good on Jetstar for taking on new recruits and training them as commercial pilots from scratch. I would be much more comfortable with a young and alert Jetstar pilot at the controls than someone in their 70s flying an Air NZ aircraft.
Comment 18 of 30
sean of brisbane Posted at 10:08 AM May 05, 2011
What better place to get real time experience with emergencies than a subsidiary airline belonging to Qantas ? They are in the news for some near miss maintenance issue weekly. Little wonder virgin has done so well here.
Comment 19 of 30
Safety before Profit Posted at 10:08 AM May 05, 2011
With 200 hours of flight training the cadets will be struggling to keep up with the normal operation of the aircraft. They will then NOT be in a position to help in an emergency or when the workload increases for any reason. It costs a lot less to go through working in General Aviation before entering an airline, this is simple maths with little research. Jetstar are making money out of these people for a job. It may not be so apparent to the public but Jetstar and the Qantas Group are pushing and pushing the Fair Work Australia (FWA) Rules to see what they can get away with. We as the public need to stop this, it will affest all workplaces in the future if they get away with it.
Comment 20 of 30
justme Posted at 10:16 AM May 05, 2011
@Shaz Thats more like Tiger.....
Comment 21 of 30
Matt of sydney Posted at 10:16 AM May 05, 2011
So what - its legal under Australian law. The pilots have been well trained. There is an experienced pilot in the left seat. A modern jet is no doubt much easier to fly than a 20-yr old ten seat prop jet being flown into a country aiport with a dirt strip
Comment 22 of 30
Safety Safety Safety Posted at 10:18 AM May 05, 2011
There is currently a Senate inquiry into Aircrew training and standards. Some of it is interesting listen, with CEO's etc trying to make a rose from a thorny weed. The public should be made aware of these slipping standards. It seems to just be moeny, money, money or bonus, bonus, bonus.... Hopefully the inquiry or CASA actually do something and stand up for the safety of all Australians that use air travel. The USA have just increased the minimum hours to 1500 for the same operations, this was due to aircraft crash investigations etc.
Comment 23 of 30
moo73 Posted at 10:21 AM May 05, 2011
It seems to me that this generation need to learn that you start at the bottom and learn your way to the top, not start at the top.
Comment 24 of 30
Experienced pilot of East side Posted at 10:33 AM May 05, 2011
So travelling public, how do you feel about being flown around with one experienced pilot and one straight out of flight school???
Comment 25 of 30
Martin of York Posted at 10:36 AM May 05, 2011
Which claims Jetstar denies? The claim about pilots have to pay Jetstar $10,500 , the claim that pilots have to pay Jetstar $10,000 if they want to leave before the six years is up(this must be illegal especially if the pilot has to pay the 10,500 a year dollars) or both?
Comment 26 of 30
DeanR Posted at 10:36 AM May 05, 2011
And? How do they expect new pilots to be trained? Perhaps you forget that they will have a highly trained pilot giving them instructions through the entire flight. To be honest, getting paid for flying lessons is fantastic. My brother PAID $50000+ for his.
Comment 27 of 30
Louise of Melbourne Posted at 10:45 AM May 05, 2011
just another reason not to fly Jetstar really...
Comment 28 of 30
Naden of Perth Posted at 10:46 AM May 05, 2011
It's the cheapskates whi fly this garbage that are responsible for this.
Comment 29 of 30
Louise Posted at 10:47 AM May 05, 2011
Just another reason not to fly Jetstar..
Comment 30 of 30
Shaz of Perth Posted at 9:11 AM May 05, 2011
And the company oath is taught on the first day..."Attention all passengers, this flight has been delayed...no wait, make that cancelled..."
Comment 1 of 30
SA Dave Posted at 9:16 AM May 05, 2011
What a joke... It might be 200 Hours but that is 200 hours of flying a Turbine engine plane.... They have been flying for year at that stage! and it is only the next step... they have already spent thousands of dollars traning to get to that level!
Comment 2 of 30
nic marandola of melbourne Posted at 9:17 AM May 05, 2011
it's time the authorities put a stop to airlines putting profit making over public safety - otherwise what is the point of having them!!
Comment 3 of 30
Mere Male of Lara Posted at 9:20 AM May 05, 2011
Better they learn to fly at Jetstar, and make their mistakes there, before getting a real job as a pilot at my carrier of choice, Qantas :-)
Comment 4 of 30
David of Adelaide Posted at 9:22 AM May 05, 2011
As a pilot, I think people have to understand just how hard it is to become a pilot, If they can pass all flight tests and exams in the time determined by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, and pass their Jet training then they are more than capable of on the job training. Trying to find a job in Aviation is extremely hard, and every pilot I know, would do anything for a job, If they're happy to fly under those conditions that is their choice. You have to start at the bottom!
Comment 5 of 30
Jason of Perth Posted at 9:24 AM May 05, 2011
I got out of the industry myself as the pay is crap, the hours suck and there isn't really any job stability but I believe this can only be a good thing as I spent a small fortune on flying and this is nothing in comparasion for real experience early on in your career. Lets face it most pilots that end up in an airline position have 1500+ hours in small aircraft anyway, so why not start early? plenty of airlines offer this program around the world but don't actually pay you a wage so it's nothing new.
Comment 6 of 30
TS Posted at 9:37 AM May 05, 2011
And I'd bet that they are the most decent and competent employees that one could ever meet at this company.
Comment 7 of 30
The Fatman of Brisbane Posted at 9:43 AM May 05, 2011
So what. The onboard computer systems can do everything except the first part of take-off and the last 30 metres to landing. Could probably do that too but we know from the UK the driverless trains freaked people out.
Comment 8 of 30
Lexi of Brisbane Posted at 9:44 AM May 05, 2011
What exactly is the problem here? How do you get flight experience without flying? A320's practically fly themselves anyway.
Comment 9 of 30
Frequent Flier but not on Jetstar Posted at 9:48 AM May 05, 2011
Just like driving a bus, you get what you pay for, a Learner (who makes mistakes), a Provisional (who makes less mistakes) or a full and Open class driver with experience who is very unlikely to make any mistakes. It's the flying passengers who take the risk and CASA who should be accountable to regulate pilots with experience commensurate with the responsibility for the lives on board. As soon as one goes in there will be hell to pay.
Comment 10 of 30
MB Posted at 9:49 AM May 05, 2011
"This program is putting a person with about the same number of hours it takes to drive a car in the right hand seat of the cockpit," where did that come from the requriement is 50 hours and only if you do the log book method in the act. 200 hours is a lot of time and thier are always 2 pilots. after 50 hours of flying most people can achieve the private license. the other 150 hours will all be solo\ in command, and this doesnt even touch on how much book study is required. this sounds like a great way to get into commerical flying the only other organisation that pays for flying is qantas and the ADF (you owe the ADF 11-14 years if you go pilot)
Comment 11 of 30
Chris of Perth Posted at 9:52 AM May 05, 2011
Bonding of pilots is not uncommon in airlines to discourage movement to other companies after expensive training. The bonding by can be in the form of requiring a bank guarantee, one major Asian airline demanded $180,000 for a period of 5yrs after training on a different type of aircraft despite having 15,000hrs experience on heavy jets. Local trainee pilots on another Asian airline have been bonded for 13yrs, their training taking 2yrs before becoming a productive First Officer.
Comment 12 of 30
Bob of up north Posted at 9:52 AM May 05, 2011
Co pilots...so they don't land, take off or have control in an emergency.
Comment 13 of 30
Mike Hunty of QLD Posted at 9:55 AM May 05, 2011
I've logged 160 hours in single engine Piper Cherokees..I'll give these fancy Airbus things a try, where do i send my resume?
Comment 14 of 30
Jetstar of Melbourne Posted at 9:58 AM May 05, 2011
shaz - we all are comediams - some just not as funny as others.....Good to see Mr Woodward back in news trying to stir the pot again. Obviously a slow week for him. I'm sure he realises that Cadets have been in the industry since the 60s - and in fact they came straight out of training into Qantas with little more hours than what this article is stating. Furthermore, if the saftey of these pilots is an issue, why doesn't CASA or our fantasic government department of transport ban them now ! No evidence to suggest that they are of concern me thinks.
Comment 15 of 30
David of Brisbane Posted at 10:00 AM May 05, 2011
That explains the burnout on the runway and the magnetic P Plate on the back
Comment 16 of 30
Storman of Perth Posted at 10:03 AM May 05, 2011
Right...so if they are never co-pilots how are they supposed to get experiences in airbuses etc...theats like saying a draft pick can only practice in a simulated environment, but then have to make their debut in a premiership team with real life experience....so what!!
Comment 17 of 30
Ozshanel of Sydney Posted at 10:06 AM May 05, 2011
Good on Jetstar for taking on new recruits and training them as commercial pilots from scratch. I would be much more comfortable with a young and alert Jetstar pilot at the controls than someone in their 70s flying an Air NZ aircraft.
Comment 18 of 30
sean of brisbane Posted at 10:08 AM May 05, 2011
What better place to get real time experience with emergencies than a subsidiary airline belonging to Qantas ? They are in the news for some near miss maintenance issue weekly. Little wonder virgin has done so well here.
Comment 19 of 30
Safety before Profit Posted at 10:08 AM May 05, 2011
With 200 hours of flight training the cadets will be struggling to keep up with the normal operation of the aircraft. They will then NOT be in a position to help in an emergency or when the workload increases for any reason. It costs a lot less to go through working in General Aviation before entering an airline, this is simple maths with little research. Jetstar are making money out of these people for a job. It may not be so apparent to the public but Jetstar and the Qantas Group are pushing and pushing the Fair Work Australia (FWA) Rules to see what they can get away with. We as the public need to stop this, it will affest all workplaces in the future if they get away with it.
Comment 20 of 30
justme Posted at 10:16 AM May 05, 2011
@Shaz Thats more like Tiger.....
Comment 21 of 30
Matt of sydney Posted at 10:16 AM May 05, 2011
So what - its legal under Australian law. The pilots have been well trained. There is an experienced pilot in the left seat. A modern jet is no doubt much easier to fly than a 20-yr old ten seat prop jet being flown into a country aiport with a dirt strip
Comment 22 of 30
Safety Safety Safety Posted at 10:18 AM May 05, 2011
There is currently a Senate inquiry into Aircrew training and standards. Some of it is interesting listen, with CEO's etc trying to make a rose from a thorny weed. The public should be made aware of these slipping standards. It seems to just be moeny, money, money or bonus, bonus, bonus.... Hopefully the inquiry or CASA actually do something and stand up for the safety of all Australians that use air travel. The USA have just increased the minimum hours to 1500 for the same operations, this was due to aircraft crash investigations etc.
Comment 23 of 30
moo73 Posted at 10:21 AM May 05, 2011
It seems to me that this generation need to learn that you start at the bottom and learn your way to the top, not start at the top.
Comment 24 of 30
Experienced pilot of East side Posted at 10:33 AM May 05, 2011
So travelling public, how do you feel about being flown around with one experienced pilot and one straight out of flight school???
Comment 25 of 30
Martin of York Posted at 10:36 AM May 05, 2011
Which claims Jetstar denies? The claim about pilots have to pay Jetstar $10,500 , the claim that pilots have to pay Jetstar $10,000 if they want to leave before the six years is up(this must be illegal especially if the pilot has to pay the 10,500 a year dollars) or both?
Comment 26 of 30
DeanR Posted at 10:36 AM May 05, 2011
And? How do they expect new pilots to be trained? Perhaps you forget that they will have a highly trained pilot giving them instructions through the entire flight. To be honest, getting paid for flying lessons is fantastic. My brother PAID $50000+ for his.
Comment 27 of 30
Louise of Melbourne Posted at 10:45 AM May 05, 2011
just another reason not to fly Jetstar really...
Comment 28 of 30
Naden of Perth Posted at 10:46 AM May 05, 2011
It's the cheapskates whi fly this garbage that are responsible for this.
Comment 29 of 30
Louise Posted at 10:47 AM May 05, 2011
Just another reason not to fly Jetstar..
Comment 30 of 30
Where are those guys that got Osama.. I wonder if they're busy..
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I was only thinking this morning that if I were J* management and I wanted to find out just how bad the guys and gals out of school want to sit in a nice smick cockpit then I would start a recruiting drive at the award rate. You can always increase the offer if there are no punters! But I bet there will be plenty and in five years time when life becomes more about living and getting ahead the sparks will fly. There will be no alternative but to go O/S at that point to find better coin but by then the LLC T/C's will have infected the world. The party is well and truly over boys
For me, I'll take a DEC otherwise its a no go. So I guess its a no go.
For me, I'll take a DEC otherwise its a no go. So I guess its a no go.
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The future is slave cadet FO's that keep trying to impress the opposite sex by looking for airplanes to point to when out in beer gardens on Friday nights. It'll be king of like those companies where you ring up the night before to see if you have work for the next day (GA with Jets) .
There will be a constant turn over in FO's generating a pretty penny in training costs and little resistance or nouse on any industrial matters.
Captains will of the DE variety. Usually people that have been overseas and looking to come back before retirement OR people that are tired of living in India and getting too much real life simulator practice.
J* will be the place people go to gain the experience required to go elsewhere.
There will be a constant turn over in FO's generating a pretty penny in training costs and little resistance or nouse on any industrial matters.
Captains will of the DE variety. Usually people that have been overseas and looking to come back before retirement OR people that are tired of living in India and getting too much real life simulator practice.
J* will be the place people go to gain the experience required to go elsewhere.
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Jetstar has turned jets into GA without a doubt, ask anyone you know who's an FO there now; "Why are you doing it?" "Just getting the jet hours to go elsewhere."
I've heard that from too many DE Fo's, imagine where the cadets will sit on this.
I've heard that from too many DE Fo's, imagine where the cadets will sit on this.
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There are some real funny cooments in that stuff Mr. Hat posted, also a lot of 
heads, the sort of people that fly with airlines like Garuda to save $50 or have a friend who is a private pilot and suddenly they are experts.
The point that seems to be constantly missed is that elsewhere in the world, the cadetship thing is done out of necessity, and quite often ie CX and QF, the cadet doesnt get to T/O or land for 3-4 years. Jetstar are doing this to save money, plain and simple, they really have become a cheap and nasty bunch of plicks.
heads, the sort of people that fly with airlines like Garuda to save $50 or have a friend who is a private pilot and suddenly they are experts.The point that seems to be constantly missed is that elsewhere in the world, the cadetship thing is done out of necessity, and quite often ie CX and QF, the cadet doesnt get to T/O or land for 3-4 years. Jetstar are doing this to save money, plain and simple, they really have become a cheap and nasty bunch of plicks.
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CASA will be hoping that no Captain becomes incapacitated in flight. Just imagine the sh*t hitting the fan on the flight deck. 200 hours means nothing. What an absolute disgrace. Loathsome contemptable stupidity.
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The key in my opinion is this:
What is the point of having a body called Fair Work Australia and a document called an EBA if every time a company needs a few extra dollars a B scale is introduced.
I question the legality of one employee being employed under lessor conditions than the another - how does that meet the "no disadvantage" test? We talk about un-Australian but I actually reckon its very Australian at this rate!
I say wind FWA up altogether. Its a waste of time and tax payer money. Pack up DOTARS while we're at it, oh and centrelink..
c173 the problem is this: Our unions take softly soft cock approaches to everything. I'm told the engineers do a better job. Straight for the jugular nice and aggressive. Clearly the suit and tie professional approach hasn't worked for the last 20 years. Maybe time to seek some input from other industries unions and kick out anyone that opposes.
What is the point of having a body called Fair Work Australia and a document called an EBA if every time a company needs a few extra dollars a B scale is introduced.
I question the legality of one employee being employed under lessor conditions than the another - how does that meet the "no disadvantage" test? We talk about un-Australian but I actually reckon its very Australian at this rate!
I say wind FWA up altogether. Its a waste of time and tax payer money. Pack up DOTARS while we're at it, oh and centrelink..
c173 the problem is this: Our unions take softly soft cock approaches to everything. I'm told the engineers do a better job. Straight for the jugular nice and aggressive. Clearly the suit and tie professional approach hasn't worked for the last 20 years. Maybe time to seek some input from other industries unions and kick out anyone that opposes.
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Chaps
The problem is a document called the Award. Why is it so little? Who let this happen? I have no idea myself but there are a thousand trades and job titles out there that require far less training and ongoing accountability and they pay a lot more than this utter rubbish. In my opinion the current state of play is nothing other than supply Vs demand. There are plenty of punters and the pay on offer is legal. So its a done deal!
Whatever the fix is it will be long term and certainly won't help me any. You still have to eat so I guess this is the time to say it;
NO MORE SOUP FOR YOU!
SN
The problem is a document called the Award. Why is it so little? Who let this happen? I have no idea myself but there are a thousand trades and job titles out there that require far less training and ongoing accountability and they pay a lot more than this utter rubbish. In my opinion the current state of play is nothing other than supply Vs demand. There are plenty of punters and the pay on offer is legal. So its a done deal!
Whatever the fix is it will be long term and certainly won't help me any. You still have to eat so I guess this is the time to say it;
NO MORE SOUP FOR YOU!
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Soup Nazi
Qantas were involved with it somewhere but generally based on the General Aviation Pilots Award prior to the Modern Awards being introduced.
It was only when the Award was 'modernised' that Airline type aircraft were included
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Qantas were involved with it somewhere but generally based on the General Aviation Pilots Award prior to the Modern Awards being introduced.
It was only when the Award was 'modernised' that Airline type aircraft were included
More to Follow
The Kelpie
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Blue-foot
Yep it does sound like GA. But a lot of young budding wanabees don't want to do GA. Lets face it if you could bypass the first 3-5 years and still make more money you probably would. Plus you get to tell your mates you've made it already!
All I know is real wages for airline pilots are going down in a big way. On the other hand at the top end of GA they are most definately going up. Nobody wants to do single pilots ops. I get 110K to fly a King Air 350 hours a year. Sure I'm not in on the coast but I'm not in Charlieville either and there are plenty that are on the coast getting the same. My pay has more than doubled in the last 10 years. These new recruits don't want my job, in fact, not many do and thats why the pay is going up. It will be interesting to see what they will be on when/if they get command. Perhaps 110K??? All the while the award for my job is about 55K. Again the award, why does it not reflect industry practice?
The reality is jetstar are using their name and capacity to employ newbees to drive wages down and in doing so will teach VB and Tiger a new meaning to the term LCC. They must follow or be done for. The days of a command on 200K plus are not awaiting these new recruits. They will do it tough for their entire career unless they go OS provided the new conditions have not beaten them to it.
SN
Yep it does sound like GA. But a lot of young budding wanabees don't want to do GA. Lets face it if you could bypass the first 3-5 years and still make more money you probably would. Plus you get to tell your mates you've made it already!
All I know is real wages for airline pilots are going down in a big way. On the other hand at the top end of GA they are most definately going up. Nobody wants to do single pilots ops. I get 110K to fly a King Air 350 hours a year. Sure I'm not in on the coast but I'm not in Charlieville either and there are plenty that are on the coast getting the same. My pay has more than doubled in the last 10 years. These new recruits don't want my job, in fact, not many do and thats why the pay is going up. It will be interesting to see what they will be on when/if they get command. Perhaps 110K??? All the while the award for my job is about 55K. Again the award, why does it not reflect industry practice?
The reality is jetstar are using their name and capacity to employ newbees to drive wages down and in doing so will teach VB and Tiger a new meaning to the term LCC. They must follow or be done for. The days of a command on 200K plus are not awaiting these new recruits. They will do it tough for their entire career unless they go OS provided the new conditions have not beaten them to it.
SN
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Hard to complain
All of us that got ourselves a CPL knew what we were getting into. There was never any guarantee of getting into a well paid job in a good location, even in the long term.
Even without the cadetships the airlines are looking for people who are well rounded, intelligent and professional. They always have tried to take the best of the crowd and so many of us were never destined to get there.
GA provides us with great skills, but it also taints us in many ways - e.g. forcing us to accept and become comfortable taking risks that are completely unaccceptable in the airline industry.
Experience is overrated in this country. I know student pilots with tailwheel and aerobatic experience and with 100hrs total time that can run circles around most 2000 hr instructors regarding aircraft handling, crosswind landings and flight/energy management. Training is a far bigger factor than experience. And we all know pilots with thousand of hours that we don't feel safe flying next to.
Whilst it is really frustrating that these junior pilots can jump the queue. The truth is that the queue is only a figment of our imaginations. I reckon that most cadets will make very proficient first officers - just as good as most from GA. My biggest concern would be their personal maturity levels - especially being so young and not having any life experience.
I also don't think the 'captain incapacitated = plane will crash' or 'emergency situation = plane will crash' arguments hold up. Lets not forget that these pilots will have a CPL, ATPL theory, MECIR and hold a command endorsement in the A320 having to demonstrate proficiency in normal and emergency procedures. Yet after all this you think they can't safely land the plane without the captain? or can't assist by following SOPS in an emergency? Rubbish. They just have to choose the right individuals.
Even without the cadetships the airlines are looking for people who are well rounded, intelligent and professional. They always have tried to take the best of the crowd and so many of us were never destined to get there.
GA provides us with great skills, but it also taints us in many ways - e.g. forcing us to accept and become comfortable taking risks that are completely unaccceptable in the airline industry.
Experience is overrated in this country. I know student pilots with tailwheel and aerobatic experience and with 100hrs total time that can run circles around most 2000 hr instructors regarding aircraft handling, crosswind landings and flight/energy management. Training is a far bigger factor than experience. And we all know pilots with thousand of hours that we don't feel safe flying next to.
Whilst it is really frustrating that these junior pilots can jump the queue. The truth is that the queue is only a figment of our imaginations. I reckon that most cadets will make very proficient first officers - just as good as most from GA. My biggest concern would be their personal maturity levels - especially being so young and not having any life experience.
I also don't think the 'captain incapacitated = plane will crash' or 'emergency situation = plane will crash' arguments hold up. Lets not forget that these pilots will have a CPL, ATPL theory, MECIR and hold a command endorsement in the A320 having to demonstrate proficiency in normal and emergency procedures. Yet after all this you think they can't safely land the plane without the captain? or can't assist by following SOPS in an emergency? Rubbish. They just have to choose the right individuals.
Nunc est bibendum
you have to be the elite to get a spot, so its quite likely cadets would make some pretty damn good pilots.
That's not to say that those selected don't meet minimum standards- I'm sure they do. Just that they may not exceed the minimum standard in the way in which others in the past probably did. There will come a day when the 'minimum standard' simply isn't good enough for the situation- I wonder if the AF447 prang was an example of this but that's for another thread. I'm not sure the airline managements who endorse and encourage the types of cadetships currently on offer quite understand this concept.
I know student pilots with tailwheel and aerobatic experience and with 100hrs total time that can run circles around most 2000 hr instructors regarding aircraft handling, crosswind landings and flight/energy management.
SkyFlyHigh
A very plausible first post, and I agree somewhat that cadets will make good pilots however......
I have heard anecdotal evidence which tends to disprove your comment;
I have heard that there are times when cadets do not cope well and the Captain has their work cut out even to the point of the cadet being more frightened by the conditions than the PAX, so frightened that the Captain is really flying single pilot at a time when they could do with the help from 0F.
The Colgan crash in the US brought about a 1500 hour flight time minimum for pilots carrying out ATO's, I'm not sure that this was the right answer to the problem however the authorities came to the conclusion that more hours was a good thing. Why are Jetstar hell bent on reducing experience in the cockpit?
However this isn't really the problem here, the problem is what the cadets are being paid, which is much less than other FO's on the same type, plus they have to pay back a significant sum of their salary to Jetstar for the first 6 years. The appalling conditions is going to lead to the issues that were highlighted by the Colgan crash. i.e pilots not being able to afford to live at their appointed base and having the live else where and deadhead to work and or live in very substandard accomodation giving rise to fatigue issues.
There is also the potential distress and worry caused by the financial pressure these cadets will be under which is not a good mix when flying an aircraft.
Why is there a need for Jetstar cadets to start with, there are plenty of suitable applicants to choose from otherwise?
I strongly disagree with the last part of this statement
If you really believe this then perhaps you need to take a look at your own standards.
A very plausible first post, and I agree somewhat that cadets will make good pilots however......
I have heard anecdotal evidence which tends to disprove your comment;
Lets not forget that these pilots will have a CPL, ATPL theory, MECIR and hold a command endorsement in the A320 having to demonstrate proficiency in normal and emergency procedures. Yet after all this you think they can't safely land the plane without the captain? or can't assist by following SOPS in an emergency? Rubbish.
The Colgan crash in the US brought about a 1500 hour flight time minimum for pilots carrying out ATO's, I'm not sure that this was the right answer to the problem however the authorities came to the conclusion that more hours was a good thing. Why are Jetstar hell bent on reducing experience in the cockpit?
However this isn't really the problem here, the problem is what the cadets are being paid, which is much less than other FO's on the same type, plus they have to pay back a significant sum of their salary to Jetstar for the first 6 years. The appalling conditions is going to lead to the issues that were highlighted by the Colgan crash. i.e pilots not being able to afford to live at their appointed base and having the live else where and deadhead to work and or live in very substandard accomodation giving rise to fatigue issues.
There is also the potential distress and worry caused by the financial pressure these cadets will be under which is not a good mix when flying an aircraft.
Why is there a need for Jetstar cadets to start with, there are plenty of suitable applicants to choose from otherwise?
I strongly disagree with the last part of this statement
GA provides us with great skills, but it also taints us in many ways - e.g. forcing us to accept and become comfortable taking risks that are completely unaccceptable in the airline industry.
Last edited by 27/09; 7th May 2011 at 09:06.