Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23

[contrails03]

I wonder if the management and HR jobs could be outsourced to a foreign country. I recon foreign management would do just a good a job and be a hell of a lot cheaper. Imagine how much companies would save!!

[dodgybrothers]

The few spineless creatures that were part of the chardonnay set on the 737 at Ansett, that got their 320 ratings as the house was falling down around them at the expense of their fellow pilots, are now the ones saying that this deal is good for the Jetstar Australian pilots. They have the ability to stop it but they refuse due to their bonuses and their desires to please their masters and climb the pole.
I can actually understand the desire of CEOs and COOs who have only have a penchant to cuts costs and bust unions, but for the gatekeepers that have the ability to stop this, they are the ones where the vitriol should be directed towards.

[redned]

Watch it guys, the 89ers are popping up,giving advice wanting to fight it all over again.They buggered that one up,sent dozens of people broke in the tourist game without a thought for them,and wallow in a we was robbed mind set.Stand together on this honourable cause,but dont listen to some of those clowns

[lemel]

Redneck you my friend are the clown.

It is obvious you don't know what happened in 89. Perhaps your are one of the scabs from 89. I think I can speak for most on this forum when I say opinions like yours are not welcome.

Before you say anything about me, I am was not involved in 89, infact I was just starting school.

[woody744]

As usual, some want to hijack the thread to reopen old wounds.

This thread is about pilot unity and showing your support for one of the most important things when it comes to the future of Australian aviation.

Australian flying, Australian Jobs, Stop the Offshoring

Tell one, tell all, but most importantly be there in person.

[hoss]

Woody, looks like your going to need the big room, the really big room. Apologies I can't make it. Regards hoss

[teresa green]

BS, Redneck, yes we did stuff up big time, but this is not about us, IT IS HISTORY, it is about now. Many of us 89ers now have kids flying, nothing has changed, WE DON'T EVER WANT IT TO HAPPEN TO THEM, OR YOU! Ever since 89 things have changed, pilots have become a bit like the two contenders for the Prime Ministers job, frustrated, angry, fed up, but two scared to rock the boat. And it is because of 89. FORGET BLOODY 89, get some balls and get together and go under one banner, otherwise you blokes and girls will held ransom by the companies forever. Is that what you want, yes, the companies will be out at the meeting with cameras, like they did to us, what are you going to do? wear a burka? No you go up to them and tell them to F$#K off, why? Because if enough of you do the same thing, regardless of company, they are stuffed. I am not a unionist, never voted labor in my life, never will, but for crying out loud, the companies have walked all over you since 89, and now the final insult, foreign pilots, to take your jobs, for less pay, putting the Australian Public at risk, and you lot are going to sit there like a bunch of girls, and let it happen. Am I a angry old man, you betcha, before most of you were born, we were fighting for pilots rights, for a fair wage, for a decent stand down time, for proper accommodation, because before that, they paid us poorly, worked the arse off us, and expected us to share accommodation, absolutely irrelevent now, but the legacy remains, so for those prepared to have a go, onya, for those who remain on the sidelines, with only your own interests at heart, shame, just don't squeal like a stuck pig, when its your turn, and when the flood gates open it will be, go to the meeting, notify the press, get on four Corners, the pollies are too concerned about themselves right now to worry about you lot, grab the chance, get it out there, and have a freckin go, otherwise.................???

[Dropt McGutz]

teresa, that would have to be the best post that I have ever seen on PPRUNE. Everybody better wake up to themselves and get to the meeting.

[Transition Layer]

I'm extremely disappointed I won't be able to make the meeting as I'll be on holidays and not in SYD.

I'd love to be part of any online petition that we might be able to put together to show our support.

United we stand!

Qantas S/O

[Charliethewonderdog]

The problems in Aviation stem from the conditions in GA. It's amusing that Pilots are now complaining about conditions at the top when they did nothing for them when they were down the bottom and still dont.
The cancer from GA has slowly spread to The Airlines. With the introduction of cadetships across the board the reliance on GA will further reduce it's importance.

You water a plant at the bottom. Fix GA conditions and you will solve the problem.

By the way I love the "I'm not a unionist and I dont vote Labor sentiment" but in the same breathe "we should all stick together as 1"??

Pilots sticking together???? lol.... Pilots circling looking for a better position at the expense of someone else is the common trait.

And it all started when that first Pilot agreed to pay for his endoresement .

We have our selves to blame..... So how do we fix it????? by doing it properly.

First fix the GA award so it can become a sustainable career that offers rewards greater than working at Coles. This will flow onto the regionals when they have to entice pilots with better conditions......and then onto airlines etc..

I hate looking back down at GA more than most of you..... but if you want to enjoy the view from the top then start caring about GA.

[xjt]

teresa green , as noted your post not only nails the issue at heart but also shows the intelligence that is generally lacking on these forums and in this industry in general. Working for this mob it seems that the majority are more than happy to sit back and take it. There are some that even say that because it doesn't affect "THEM" they are not worried about it. Actions speak louder than words, and i regret to say that the majority are no willing to act.....makes me kinda think of the the famous forrest gump quote ...."stupid is as stupid does"

let the games begin

[Slasher]

Watch it guys, the 89ers are popping up,giving advice wanting to fight it all over again.

Not in my case Redned. You and your mates can battle your own **** this time. I just sit on the sidelines watching history about to repeat itself with a few diferences but a quite predictable outcome.

Sui generis TG. I hear what you said a few pages ago but I believe the Oz airlines industry is totaly mickey mouse and will be for decades. I feel you should be offering them advice to get the hell out and take a career overseas like plentey of wise kids have done since 2000. I mean why try to rehabilatate and stay marryed to a now pox-infested ugley whore when there are reasonably decent women offshore?

[peuce]

More thoughts from the outside ....
It's a pretty simple equation:

• The Company's priority, rightfully, is commercal success ... not the moral high ground
• Company policy is not normally changed by righteous indignation from the Staff
• Company policy is normally only changed by:

1. Industrial campaign/action by the Staff
2. Sustained Righteous indignation from the Public or Government

The ability to be able to provide a WIN-WIN outcome would be a bonus

[A. Le Rhone]

From South East Asia and Far East forum.......Replace the airline SpiceJet and insert JetStar??? Who would have any control?
Miles above in unsafe hands - Economy and Politics - livemint.com

Quote:
Take for instance New Delhi-based Garima Passi, 21, who went to a pilot training institute called Sabena Flight Academy in Arizona, US, to get her commercial flying licence in 2008.
Passi was expelled after she damaged an aircraft while on a flight and also had a prop strike—an incident in which the propeller of the aircraft hit the runway.

Jim Fendley, a Sabena instructor who flew with her, commented in a 2008 report that Passi was “inconsistent in almost everything” and recommended that she stop training.

“She is not developing flying skills and is afraid she will damage another airplane or hurt herself,” Fendley said in an email to the institute, reviewed by Mint.

Passi joined Sabena through Gurgaon-based United Aviation Consultants Pvt. Ltd. She displayed a “fear of aircraft”, her evaluation report and log book of flying hours show.

“During the evaluation flight, I observed a young pilot who lacks the confidence of a PIC (pilot in command) and a fear of the aircraft,” her second instructor Eliza Wade said in an evaluation report seeking her termination.

At three hearings, Passi defended herself saying, “I am trying” and “I need one more chance” before she was removed from the academy. Passi came back to India and started training in Uttarakhand-based Amber Aviation (India) Pvt. Ltd from where she passed. Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) records show she was granted a commercial pilot’s licence (CPL) within five days of her application on 18 May 2009.
Soon after, she was inducted into low-cost airline SpiceJet Ltd and flies a Boeing 737-800 as a co-pilot. There has been no reported incident involving the pilot during her employment with the airline.

An emailed questionnaire sent to SpiceJet spokeswoman Priti Dey on 21 June did not elicit any response. The airline did not comment despite repeated reminders. The airline’s acting chief executive officer Kishore Gupta said on 27 July that he wasn’t aware of the issue and would revert after inquiring into the matter with a reply by 28 July. He didn’t.

Passi didn’t reply to text messages and calls made to her cellphone. Her father R.S. Passi, director (air safety) at DGCA, said she had to return from the US academy because she hadn’t been keeping good health.

“They said that she had the option to continue in another scheme, but since she was not keeping well, we called her back,” said Passi, who added that his daughter had been selected for the course by Sabena after she went through several tests, including aptitude tests.

He said the pilot wasn’t required to disclose to DGCA the prop strike, which he denied was an accident, while confirming that “something” had taken place. He also denied any conflict of interest in her being employed with SpiceJet, the operations of which he screens in his role with DGCA

[breakfastburrito]

Originally Posted by Charliethewonderdog

The problems in Aviation stem from the conditions in GA. It's amusing that Pilots are now complaining about conditions at the top when they did nothing for them when they were down the bottom and still dont.
The cancer from GA has slowly spread to The Airlines. With the introduction of cadetships across the board the reliance on GA will further reduce it's importance.

Excellent observation Charlie. I'll go one step further. The mentality since 00/01 in RPT jetland has been "secure the flying, fix the conditions later".
Well, I'm still waiting for those poor souls to have their T&C's improved, It hasn't worked now & it won't work in the future.

Meanwhile operators are claiming "pilot shortage", T&C's conditions decreased. How is that possible in a rational market? Its not, which means one side has acted irrationally (the pilots).

If you are attending this meeting, & hope to improve the situation, understand one thing clearly - Undercutting someone else to secure the flying ALWAYS results in your own conditions been undermined, not improved. Maybe not this year or next, but inevitably in the future. This has been a demonstrable fact over the last ten years.

Operators in general hold nothing but contempt for pilots. As an operator why would you have respect for a group that falls over themselves to "buy a job" or "buy a bigger endorsement".

Everyone needs to have a good hard look at themselves, you either respect the financial/time/effort/family sacrifices & sell your skills for the right price or expect a career that pays less than a cleaner or checkout operator, only with an enormous debt.

Unions & all the big meetings in the world can only help those that help themselves. Your future T&C's are within your own hands, no one else. Each individual must take responsibility for their own actions. Rationalising it away with "if I don't someone else will" has not worked over the last ten years.

It is really that simple, individuals making choices for their long-term benefit, not some short term high. This applies right from the first job in GA, through to the heavies.

[breakfastburrito]

Antill, datal seniority in one tool of many to capture the workforce. My information is that datal seniority in J* & VB is very loosely applied at present anyway.

Lets see how non-datal seniority works within the "j* Group" before concluding it is the sole reason for all ills. In fact, I'll bet that with the merit base system "j* Group", T&C's decline further.

[Capt Basil Brush]

PB costing VB pilots 12 Commands

Announced today, 12 upcoming VB Commands cancelled due to PB taking over VB flying.

The routes being taken over have nothing to to do flights out of NZ where PB should belong. They are all flights originating in Aus, and DPS is not even on PB's AOC.

This is costing Australian jobs, as intake courses have been cancelled as well.

[Eastmoore]

Looks like all the VB boys should be attending this meeting also. Virgin might have beaten Jetstar on this one.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

Some perspective on the GFC and what it is doing to working conditions around the world. The next time an airline claims the GFC as rationale for cutting conditions..

"Crisis. What Crisis? Profits Soar!

By James Petras

August 16, 2010 -- While progressives and leftists write about the “crises of capitalism”, manufacturers, petroleum companies, bankers and most other major corporations on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific coast are chuckling all the way to the bank.

From the first quarter of this year, corporate profits have shot up between twenty to over a hundred percent, (Financial Times August 10, 2010, p. 7). In fact, corporate profits have risen higher than they were before the onset of the recession in 2008 (Money Morning March 31, 2010). Contrary to progressive bloggers the rates of profits are rising not falling, particularly among the biggest corporations (Consensus Economics, August 12, 2010). The buoyancy of corporate profits is directly a result of the deepening crises of the working class, public and private employees and small and medium size enterprises.

With the onset of the recession, big capital shed millions of jobs (one out of four Americans has been unemployed in 2010), secured give backs from the trade union bosses, received tax exemptions, subsidies and virtually interest free loans from local, state and federal governments.

As the recession temporarily bottomed out, big business doubled up production on the remaining labor force, intensifying exploitation (more output per worker) and lowered costs by passing onto the working class a much larger share of health insurance and pension benefits with the compliance of the millionaire trade union officials. The result is that while revenues declined, profits rose and balance sheets improved (Financial Times August 10, 2010). Paradoxically, the CEO’s used the pretext and rhetoric of “crises” coming from progressive journalists to keep workers from demanding a larger share of the burgeoning profits, aided by the ever growing pool of unemployed and underemployed workers as possible “replacements” (scabs) in the event of industrial action.

The current boom of profits has not benefited all sectors of capitalism: the windfall has accrued overwhelmingly with the biggest corporations. In contrast many middle and small enterprises have suffered high rates of bankruptcy and losses, which has made them cheap and easy prey for buyouts for the ‘big fellows’ (Financial Times August 1, 2010). The crises of middle capital has led to the concentration and centralization of capital and has contributed to the rising rate of profits for the largest corporations.

The failed diagnosis of capitalist crises by the left and progressives has been a perennial problem since the end of World War II, when we were told capitalism was ‘stagnant” and heading for a final collapse. Recent prophets of the apocalypse saw in the 2008-2009 recession the definitive and total crash of the world capitalist system. Blinded by Euro-American ethnocentrism, they failed to note that Asian capital never entered the “final crises” and Latin America had a mild and transient version (Financial Times June 9, 2010, p. 9). The false prophets failed to recognize that different kinds of capitalism are more or less susceptible to crises … and that some variants tend to experience rapid recoveries (Asia-Latin America- Germany) while others (US, England, Southern and Eastern Europe) are more susceptible to anemic and precarious recoveries.

While Exxon-Mobile reaped over 100% growth of profits in 2010 and the auto corporations recorded their biggest profits in recent years, the workers’ wages and living standards declined and state-sector employees suffered harsh cutbacks and massive layoffs. It is clear that the recovery of corporate profit is based on the harshest exploitation of labor and the biggest transfers of public resources to the large private corporations. The capitalist state, with Democratic President Obama in the lead, has transferred billions to big capital via direct bailouts, virtual interest free loans, tax cuts and by pressuring labor to accept lower wages and health and pension givebacks. The White House plan for ‘recovery’ has worked beyond expectations – corporate profits have recovered; “only” the vast majority of workers have fallen deeper into crises.

The progressives’ failed predictions of capitalism’s demise are a result of their underestimation of the extent to which the White House and Congress would plunder the public treasury to resuscitate capital. They underestimated the degree to which capital had been freed to shift the entire burden of profit recovery onto the backs of labor. In that regard, progressive rhetoric about “labor resistance” and the “trade union movement” reflected a lack of understanding that there has been virtually no resistance to the roll back of social and money wages because there is no labor organization. What passes for it is totally ossified and at the service of the Democratic Party’s Wall Street advocates in the White House.

What the current unequal and uneven impact of the capitalist system tells us is that capitalists can overcome crises only by heightening exploitation and rolling back decades of “social gains”. The current process of profit recovery, however, is highly precarious because it is based on exploiting current inventories, low interest rates and cutting labor costs (Financial Times August 10, 2010, p 7). It is not based on dynamic new private investments and increased productive capacity. In other words, these are “windfall gains” - not profits derived from increased sales revenues and expanding consumer markets. How could they be – if wages are declining and unemployment/underemployment/and lost labor is over 22%? Clearly, this short-term profit boom, based on political and social advantages and privileged power, is not sustainable. There are limits to the massive layoffs of public employees and production gains from the intensified exploitation of labor … something has to give. One thing is certain: The capitalist system will not fall or be replaced because of its internal rot or “contradictions”."

[FFG 02]

I'll be there.

I will be there.

Ok most have read this but have you forwarded to your mates on email?

I haven't recieved one invite via email. COpy ans paste the details and send to your mates...

or we will be forever grounded