Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23
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FDG135,
When are you going to comprehend that this is not about improving pay?? The responses to your posts have explained this if you'd been bothered to read them.
It is about preventing the erosion of what we already have, and preventing organisations circumventing Australian employment and aviation standards through the setting up of offshore entities.
When are you going to comprehend that this is not about improving pay?? The responses to your posts have explained this if you'd been bothered to read them.
It is about preventing the erosion of what we already have, and preventing organisations circumventing Australian employment and aviation standards through the setting up of offshore entities.
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When are you going to comprehend that this is not about improving pay??
Having to only employ Australian pilots, for example, whilst having no effect on your salary, costs your airline more MONEY.
ANY change to ANY provision in your working conditions (if to your benefit) will cost your employer more MONEY. This money has to come from the public.
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This thread is drifting off course. It is not about improving conditions.
It is about keeping jobs in Australia, and what airlines are doing to circumvent it.
Please get back to the topic:
It is about keeping jobs in Australia, and what airlines are doing to circumvent it.
Please get back to the topic:
Off-shoring by Australian airlines.
FGD, I ask again, what is your solution? Stand by and watch while our jobs are outsourced?
The idea that Australians can't compete with cheap Asian labour is ridiculous, off the top of my head, Aussie made cars (which would surely cost more to make) still sell well, in fact many people buy Falcons/Commodores etc. because they are Aussie made! I remember as a kid you flew an Australian airline because it was crewed by Australians, yes they were simplier times but the customer loyalty lost during the Dixon years didn't help. We can compete AND hold our T&Cs.
As I say FGD, what do you think we should do?
The idea that Australians can't compete with cheap Asian labour is ridiculous, off the top of my head, Aussie made cars (which would surely cost more to make) still sell well, in fact many people buy Falcons/Commodores etc. because they are Aussie made! I remember as a kid you flew an Australian airline because it was crewed by Australians, yes they were simplier times but the customer loyalty lost during the Dixon years didn't help. We can compete AND hold our T&Cs.
As I say FGD, what do you think we should do?
Would someone post the offending FSO so we can all see for ourselves what all the fuss is about?
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By the sounds of my Jetstar colleagues this latest stunt could be costing big dollars. They're pissing off the entire pilot group not just a faction this time.
For those that fear strikes 89, fear not as pilots have learned and will not repeat the mistakes of the past. These days the results come out in fuel costs and poor otp results. In some extreme cases people start not accepting working on days off or extending duties. All 100% legal its their choice.
So for every dollar saved on sneaky industrial chess $10 is lost in fuel etc. Pilots are generally deep down pro company, tolerant and professional. We put up with a lot but I think we're about to see that come to an abrupt end.
There's only so much juice you can squeeze out of the aviation orange!
For those that fear strikes 89, fear not as pilots have learned and will not repeat the mistakes of the past. These days the results come out in fuel costs and poor otp results. In some extreme cases people start not accepting working on days off or extending duties. All 100% legal its their choice.
So for every dollar saved on sneaky industrial chess $10 is lost in fuel etc. Pilots are generally deep down pro company, tolerant and professional. We put up with a lot but I think we're about to see that come to an abrupt end.
There's only so much juice you can squeeze out of the aviation orange!
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 13th Aug 2010 at 04:25.
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Stand United
Hope and pray that we all can stand together in this matter for our country ,our future and the profession which we all love so dearly.
I dont know how its going to end as the likes of AJ,BB have the cunning to fool all of us in many ways.
The fellow servants of them like SW,MDP,DK,RG
Then the Ops like MR,CM,AS,CW,MM and the clown
M bell bell bell.
The only good one is the lady SC.
many Good ones who could not take the BS have left and back to Line.
cont
I dont know how its going to end as the likes of AJ,BB have the cunning to fool all of us in many ways.
The fellow servants of them like SW,MDP,DK,RG
Then the Ops like MR,CM,AS,CW,MM and the clown
M bell bell bell.The only good one is the lady SC.
many Good ones who could not take the BS have left and back to Line.
cont
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The Jetstar Game
Fellow pilots
I just heard this from my friend about a pilot recently got selected to join Jetstar.He has done his induction through this so called third party and got through the selection and signed the Jetstar contract .Some how after a week jetstar called him and ended the contract .
The reason given that he has an Full Australian ATPL and they dont want that.................
Can someone tell me can they do these kinds of things to pilots
Is this because they have to pay him as per the EBA about 85K if they keep him because he has an ATPL.
this make me believe that they want cheap labour
now if they have come with the ACP cadet but the are finding that they will have to pay because most of them have ATPL...
can some one enlighten on this
I just heard this from my friend about a pilot recently got selected to join Jetstar.He has done his induction through this so called third party and got through the selection and signed the Jetstar contract .Some how after a week jetstar called him and ended the contract .
The reason given that he has an Full Australian ATPL and they dont want that.................
Can someone tell me can they do these kinds of things to pilots
Is this because they have to pay him as per the EBA about 85K if they keep him because he has an ATPL.
this make me believe that they want cheap labour
now if they have come with the ACP cadet but the are finding that they will have to pay because most of them have ATPL...
can some one enlighten on this
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drift
None taken 1a
Sorry to add to the drift Tid
My Dad began learning to fly in the late fifties/early sixties. I started official lessons (still learning every time I go up) in the middle of 89 in company with one of the pilots union lawyers at the time. So I also got to know a bit about what our "glorified bus drivers" (such a sign of respect from the old silver shagger) went through.
If we all stop for a moment and think about the advances in technology since 1989 and how we (in no particular order of importance)as pilots,engineers,cabin crew,ground crew, etcetera, etcetera have benefited from some and suffered because of others, the "light may come on" as to how we as a group can prevent the Off-shoring by Australian Airlines.
When I consider the outcome of j*s parent company and the last effort at outsourcing maintenance to an overseas country (remember the old oxy bottle through the cabin and out of the fuselage trick) and how so many passengers (by pure a##e) lived to tell the story to the grandkids, I wonder what part of Q's former leaders example AJ missed.
I really can't afford to miss the meeting on the 23rd. I think every member of the Australian travelling public (if they choose to) should get to view it streamed live via the internet as well. The cost of setting up the IT stuff needed for such an event is one that I am happy to donate 10AUD ( receipt required) to AFAP or whoever sets it up. I will not be flying or instructing in theory on the 23rd.
I only have 1 question.
If all of the registered over 18 year olds in this country can vote on the 21st. Why hold such and important meeting on the 23rd?
Sorry to add to the drift Tid
My Dad began learning to fly in the late fifties/early sixties. I started official lessons (still learning every time I go up) in the middle of 89 in company with one of the pilots union lawyers at the time. So I also got to know a bit about what our "glorified bus drivers" (such a sign of respect from the old silver shagger) went through.
If we all stop for a moment and think about the advances in technology since 1989 and how we (in no particular order of importance)as pilots,engineers,cabin crew,ground crew, etcetera, etcetera have benefited from some and suffered because of others, the "light may come on" as to how we as a group can prevent the Off-shoring by Australian Airlines.
When I consider the outcome of j*s parent company and the last effort at outsourcing maintenance to an overseas country (remember the old oxy bottle through the cabin and out of the fuselage trick) and how so many passengers (by pure a##e) lived to tell the story to the grandkids, I wonder what part of Q's former leaders example AJ missed.
I really can't afford to miss the meeting on the 23rd. I think every member of the Australian travelling public (if they choose to) should get to view it streamed live via the internet as well. The cost of setting up the IT stuff needed for such an event is one that I am happy to donate 10AUD ( receipt required) to AFAP or whoever sets it up. I will not be flying or instructing in theory on the 23rd.
I only have 1 question.
If all of the registered over 18 year olds in this country can vote on the 21st. Why hold such and important meeting on the 23rd?
Please read A.Le Rhone's post #70
Hello Everyone,
I work for the offending (offensive?) airline.
I recently returned from a stint O/S after losing my job in Aus.
I have been flying with 200hr "foreign" pilots in a Modern Jet.
I came home because Australia is the place I want to be.
I am concerned with the CEO's plans.
I want to keep Australian jobs for Australians.
I implore all pilots from Flying school Grade 3's & CHTR guys/gal's to the airline C&Ter's (of all the airlines) and everyone in between to stand together on this one.
But most importantly, read A.Le Rhones post #70 of this thread. (I don't know how to do a link or quote.)
Then have a search of A320/B737/A330/B777 opportunities worldwide. Why would our "Foreign" friends take a job in Australia, or SIN for that matter, with an Australian entity (or offshore company) paying well below the going rate, in countries with high cost of living and no accommodation assistance?
There is more money being offered elsewhere. China anyone??
This is CEO spin.
Don't buy into it. Let's preserve our rights and conditions.
See you on the 23rd.
I work for the offending (offensive?) airline.
I recently returned from a stint O/S after losing my job in Aus.
I have been flying with 200hr "foreign" pilots in a Modern Jet.
I came home because Australia is the place I want to be.
I am concerned with the CEO's plans.
I want to keep Australian jobs for Australians.
I implore all pilots from Flying school Grade 3's & CHTR guys/gal's to the airline C&Ter's (of all the airlines) and everyone in between to stand together on this one.
But most importantly, read A.Le Rhones post #70 of this thread. (I don't know how to do a link or quote.)
Then have a search of A320/B737/A330/B777 opportunities worldwide. Why would our "Foreign" friends take a job in Australia, or SIN for that matter, with an Australian entity (or offshore company) paying well below the going rate, in countries with high cost of living and no accommodation assistance?
There is more money being offered elsewhere. China anyone??
This is CEO spin.
Don't buy into it. Let's preserve our rights and conditions.See you on the 23rd.
Last edited by Roj approved; 13th Aug 2010 at 04:34.
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lunars, I have posted an explanation about the logic behind cadets v's ATPL holders here. You could also do a search on my previous posts, I have documented this issue in several other posts.
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Anyone with any doubts of the consequences of FSO 136, please look at Christchurch. We DON'T want what's been trialled there to be rolled out in Australia. Pilots working together, doing the same job on the same aircraft, on the same routes - on terms and conditions a hundred miles apart. Before you know it, the group on the bottom of the barrel T & C's gets larger and larger while the EBA body shrinks away through natural attrition.
FSO 136 IS MERELY TO INTRODUCE THE J* CHRISTCHURCH TRIAL INTO AUSTRALIA - IT SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED THERE AND WE DON'T WANT IT IN OZ
FSO 136 IS MERELY TO INTRODUCE THE J* CHRISTCHURCH TRIAL INTO AUSTRALIA - IT SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED THERE AND WE DON'T WANT IT IN OZ
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Will Alan Joyce, Bruce and his boys below
Guys have a look
Will AJ and BB will agree to T and C less than what they are getting now
What about the other mangement guys and girls for that matter
No they wont .......
They woont take a penny less ...
Why should You and I have to do it
Even the guy who drives the truck at the airport live a better life with the T and Cs
The reason they have been doing this to Pilots because theyknew how to spilt us and they knew wer are not united
Come on Aussie come lets get behind and be united for all of us Show that we can be united.come on come on lets so it
ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL
LETS BE UNITED
GUYS FOR ONCE IN OUR HISTORY
Will AJ and BB will agree to T and C less than what they are getting now
What about the other mangement guys and girls for that matter
No they wont .......
They woont take a penny less ...
Why should You and I have to do it
Even the guy who drives the truck at the airport live a better life with the T and Cs
The reason they have been doing this to Pilots because theyknew how to spilt us and they knew wer are not united
Come on Aussie come lets get behind and be united for all of us Show that we can be united.come on come on lets so it
ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL
LETS BE UNITED
GUYS FOR ONCE IN OUR HISTORY
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OK...lets try this another way.
Could we all put down our bugles, stop flexing our muscled forearms as we wave the red banner, try focusing on somebody directly behind us rather than on the hordes of barbarions (that exist slightly out of shot) and listen carefully.
The reason that this situation exists is NOT (see..I don't shout as loud!!) because of 1989...in general.
The reason you blokes are in this pickle is because of what happened back in the GA days.
The ****ty times are already upon us underlings in the real world and have been since before WW2.
Supporting a bunch of airline drivers who traditionally haven't supported me and the other GA drivers who are remaining in this sector ,doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the big scheme of things.
If you lot had treated the GA sector as a legitimate career when you were here... you wouldn't be in this position now.
Thoughts people?
Regards,
Drivr
Could we all put down our bugles, stop flexing our muscled forearms as we wave the red banner, try focusing on somebody directly behind us rather than on the hordes of barbarions (that exist slightly out of shot) and listen carefully.
The reason that this situation exists is NOT (see..I don't shout as loud!!) because of 1989...in general.
The reason you blokes are in this pickle is because of what happened back in the GA days.
The ****ty times are already upon us underlings in the real world and have been since before WW2.
Supporting a bunch of airline drivers who traditionally haven't supported me and the other GA drivers who are remaining in this sector ,doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the big scheme of things.
If you lot had treated the GA sector as a legitimate career when you were here... you wouldn't be in this position now.
Thoughts people?
Regards,
Drivr
GADRIVER,
Observation from the outside ....
You are still looking at what was, instead of what might be.
There's two alternatives:
Observation from the outside ....
You are still looking at what was, instead of what might be.
There's two alternatives:
- You never intend to get an Airline job ...then either feel bitter and sulk in the corner; or attend the meeting and ensure that your current GA concerns are considered by the group
- You do intend to get an Airline job. Well, you'd be mad not to attend to ensure that the best T&Cs are available when you get there.
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The RAAus has over 10,000 memebers, how many GA pilots are there? how many staff associated with all airline ops?
I think we are all barking up the wrong tree.
I think this meeting should be the birth of the "Australian Aerospace Party"
it worked for the shooting community, and the outdoors community....
as a political party, we would get a far more sympathetic ear from those in a position to influence aviation policy.
no to mention the green environmental vote with a advertising campaign comparing Noise/pollution associated with airport ops as opposed to a new freeway/rail/industrial development. the amount of fuel PER PASSENGER MILE compared to car and rail. considering AIR does not require the construction of infrastructure along the entire length of its routes, im sure the environmental damage caused by the construction of long distance rail networks has never been considered.
Less airport/less aircraft means More trucks, more congestion
etc etc.
just a thought...
I think we are all barking up the wrong tree.
I think this meeting should be the birth of the "Australian Aerospace Party"
it worked for the shooting community, and the outdoors community....
as a political party, we would get a far more sympathetic ear from those in a position to influence aviation policy.
no to mention the green environmental vote with a advertising campaign comparing Noise/pollution associated with airport ops as opposed to a new freeway/rail/industrial development. the amount of fuel PER PASSENGER MILE compared to car and rail. considering AIR does not require the construction of infrastructure along the entire length of its routes, im sure the environmental damage caused by the construction of long distance rail networks has never been considered.
Less airport/less aircraft means More trucks, more congestion
etc etc.
just a thought...
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Gadrvr,
You make a valid point, lots of bravado, and muscle flexing but that is where we as pilots fall down.
We are so well trained to think logically and outside the square in our jobs but get too passionate, (guilty as charged), when it comes to our carriers. Is it possible for AIPA to look for support from the international pilot associations?
This FSO has far reaching implications!
You make a valid point, lots of bravado, and muscle flexing but that is where we as pilots fall down.
We are so well trained to think logically and outside the square in our jobs but get too passionate, (guilty as charged), when it comes to our carriers. Is it possible for AIPA to look for support from the international pilot associations?
This FSO has far reaching implications!