Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23
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You are are new here aren't you? Your ignorance of what's going on stands out like dog bollocks.
Those pilots that went off overseas took jobs at the going rate in that country, they did not under cut the locals to get those jobs.
Those pilots that went off overseas took jobs at the going rate in that country, they did not under cut the locals to get those jobs.
Australian pilots going overseas to fly for low cost carriers did reduce the terms and conditions of legacy carriers in those countries. If you do not know this then I suggest that it is you whose ignorance stands out like dogs...
OK then Clockwork Doll,
I think you are being a little disingenious with your argument now.
Since you are so well informed, tell us;
Did the pilots that you speak of take jobs off the locals and get paid less than the locals did for doing the same job?
Were they employed in an underhand/devious manner to get around the immigration rules?
I think you are being a little disingenious with your argument now.
Since you are so well informed, tell us;
Did the pilots that you speak of take jobs off the locals and get paid less than the locals did for doing the same job?
Were they employed in an underhand/devious manner to get around the immigration rules?
27/09
I suspect Clockwork Doll is a management mole. New handle gives him away like dogs balls. This is the “modus operandi” of management to try and divide and conquer. We have seen it done to death and quite frankly it is getting boring. Just ignore him/her. The fact is most Aussie pilots that have gone overseas to work don’t work for LCC’s period. We generally work for full service carriers in countries that don’t have a ready supply of their own pilots and are therefore forced to employ foreign pilots. This thread is about Aussie pilots working in Australia and any distraction brought up by the likes of Clockwork Doll is just that a distraction to try and divide you.
Everyone please be on the lookout for moles like this that will post here distracting arguments to try and divide you. This is management SOP to divide and conquer. Please ignore them and above all STAY FOCUSSED.
I suspect Clockwork Doll is a management mole. New handle gives him away like dogs balls. This is the “modus operandi” of management to try and divide and conquer. We have seen it done to death and quite frankly it is getting boring. Just ignore him/her. The fact is most Aussie pilots that have gone overseas to work don’t work for LCC’s period. We generally work for full service carriers in countries that don’t have a ready supply of their own pilots and are therefore forced to employ foreign pilots. This thread is about Aussie pilots working in Australia and any distraction brought up by the likes of Clockwork Doll is just that a distraction to try and divide you.
Everyone please be on the lookout for moles like this that will post here distracting arguments to try and divide you. This is management SOP to divide and conquer. Please ignore them and above all STAY FOCUSSED.
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The good thing is there is a common thread now, Virgin being shat over by Bluebird, QF by Jetconnect, Jetstar (well its been a consistent shat over since they started) , the main thing is you realise stupid management live to shat you over! Its pretty simple really. anyone who trusts management these days deserves to be shat over. I remember in the good times lots of employees and co workers raving about their employers, even then I waited for the shat to commence! by the way I said shat with the a representing an i so it wouldnt be censored!
PS I am in WA during the meeting I cant make it unless I go sick!
PS I am in WA during the meeting I cant make it unless I go sick!
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Why does the word S#@B and CLOCKWORK DOLL come into my head at the same time? AS a 89er, let me tell you what to expect. You will get the weak, you will get the brown noser, you will get the sneerer, you will get the one who bats for both sides, (depending who he or she is with) But if you stick together you are UNBEATABLE, UNITED YOU STAND, DIVIDED YOU FALL, DONT EVER FORGET IT. This is your chance to stand together, pilots all of you, company irrelevent, don't let the bastards bring you down, you live in a democracy, use it, and don't let what happen to us, happen to you, YOU TAKE CONTROL, THERE ARE THREE GROUPS THAT CAN BRING THIS COUNTRY TO A GRINDING HALT. (1) PILOTS (2)TRUCKIES (3) TRAINDRIVERS we have all seen the consequences of that, and the results are dreadful, but instead of worrying about 89 and what could happen, YOU ARE POWERFUL PEOPLE, don't abuse it, but use it, if what is going on is wrong, then flex your muscles, TOGETHER, companies then have to listen, as does govts. THIS IS YOUR CHANCE, GO FOR IT!
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Wow, socialism is on the rise.
I trust none of the "workers" on this thread wear clothing manufactured in Vietnam or shoes manufactured in Thailand. That would be hypocrisy.
This meeting will do little more than highlight to all involved just how many competing agendas there are amongst pilots.
It will be a hoot.
I trust none of the "workers" on this thread wear clothing manufactured in Vietnam or shoes manufactured in Thailand. That would be hypocrisy.
This meeting will do little more than highlight to all involved just how many competing agendas there are amongst pilots.
It will be a hoot.
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Pssst clockwork doll, just remember mate, we can do your job overnight, it'll take at least a year for you to do ours and then I expect you'll be a gimp. Supply and demand mate, plain and simple. Countries don't have enough pilots, Aussies get hired. Not the case here. We have truckloads of pilots. So why hire from outside? To sort T&Cs.
Stick together people!!
Stick together people!!
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I was concerned this thread would degenerate into slagging and so far it hasn't really, which has to be a first!
The essential point remains the same: Experienced, quality, Professional Pilots are globally in shorter supply now than ever before - although in Aus we can't see that because traditionally we have more supply here than demand. It is time that reality was used to our advantage because god knows the flip-side has been used against us by ruthless managers for many years.
Airlines globally for years have loved Aussie pilots because they have high operational standards and by and large assimilate reasonably well. They usually imbue the airline with strict operating skills and do not undercut locals by any means, in fact they have often been paid more. There have rarely been double-standards in this regard as stated incorrectly by a new-poster here. Foreign airlines either simply couldn't get enough locals or realised that the extra expense of hiring expensive expatriates had other operational benefits.
What JQ are trying is a new low. It comes from the concept that a "Pilot" is a commodity like say a hamburger - as long as they have a licence then seen one seen them all. Why as an airline manager can't I just go and buy a cheap commodity from say the Philippines or Botswana. As that manager I can also harness the 'politically correct' theme to suggest anybody who opposes my plan is just racist and that "you greedy Aussie pilots are just featherbedding" (although what exactly you're featherbedding I don't know because globally speaking Aussie T&C aren't so good, but probably still better than Botswana).
But not all pilots are the same. Be it politically correct or not, pilots from many countries just aren't trained to the same standards as others - that's not racism but just fact. I've personally flown with folks of so many different nationalities and from all over the world and they have almost to a man been great but they have all had proper training and employ strict operating discipline. They wouldn't have got into the airline without it and they weren't employed just because they had a licence.
And now most of these guys are in the likes of Emirates or Ethihad etc and doing well and good on them. Before the GFC airlines were desperate for pilots and even pilots from countries with sometimes questionable safety records (e.g. Indonesia and the Eastern Bloc) were being snapped-up by hungry low-cost carriers to the degree that flag-carriers (like PAL) were complaining that they were being bled-dry of pilots and would have to cancel flights - interestingly this has again happened just last week.
So back to our scenario and how it is fought. The Colgan case proved that an accident forced US Congress to legislate against unscrupulous airline managers employing lowly-experienced aircrews because they are unsafe. That must be one basis of our stance.
The other basis needs to be handled more discretely and that is that many licence-issuing countries just don't have the same standards as we do here. Yes pilots here have texted and messed-up A320 missed-approaches but on the whole standards are still way better than so many other countries and airlines. For short-sighted managers to go and gobble-up pilots from those countries (which as discussed previously is really just a tactic to try to pay lower wages and thus get themselves bigger and bigger bonuses) would be a direct threat to the Australian traveling public. This needs to be illustrated.
And the best PR winner in this regard is the Garuda 737 prang that killed the Aussie journalists. Even the government at the time stated that other countries don't have the same standards as we do. It's a fact and can be used to our benefit.
And finally, although I am aware I sound totally paranoid, as an 89'er I would have to beware of trolls on sites such as PPRuNe. Social networking has become such a powerful tool but in this case posts are anonymous. What better way for a full-time industrial relations person to undermine new-found pilot unity than spend a quick 5 mins on a site such as this feeding in seeds of doubt to undermine a timid and nervous group who have clearly had enough but aren't united.
That of course doesn't mean differing ideas should be howled down with tirades of childish abuse as is so often sadly the case but it does mean we need to be a little observant. Your unity is not something that airline managers want and their bonuses are directly impacted by this.
Think of the big picture and take advantage of the global pilot shortage and the fact that Aussie pilots are a sought-after commodity. Convert bitching energy into something tangible and you are on a winner.
Once again I apologise for taking so many lines to get my longwinded point across.
The essential point remains the same: Experienced, quality, Professional Pilots are globally in shorter supply now than ever before - although in Aus we can't see that because traditionally we have more supply here than demand. It is time that reality was used to our advantage because god knows the flip-side has been used against us by ruthless managers for many years.
Airlines globally for years have loved Aussie pilots because they have high operational standards and by and large assimilate reasonably well. They usually imbue the airline with strict operating skills and do not undercut locals by any means, in fact they have often been paid more. There have rarely been double-standards in this regard as stated incorrectly by a new-poster here. Foreign airlines either simply couldn't get enough locals or realised that the extra expense of hiring expensive expatriates had other operational benefits.
What JQ are trying is a new low. It comes from the concept that a "Pilot" is a commodity like say a hamburger - as long as they have a licence then seen one seen them all. Why as an airline manager can't I just go and buy a cheap commodity from say the Philippines or Botswana. As that manager I can also harness the 'politically correct' theme to suggest anybody who opposes my plan is just racist and that "you greedy Aussie pilots are just featherbedding" (although what exactly you're featherbedding I don't know because globally speaking Aussie T&C aren't so good, but probably still better than Botswana).
But not all pilots are the same. Be it politically correct or not, pilots from many countries just aren't trained to the same standards as others - that's not racism but just fact. I've personally flown with folks of so many different nationalities and from all over the world and they have almost to a man been great but they have all had proper training and employ strict operating discipline. They wouldn't have got into the airline without it and they weren't employed just because they had a licence.
And now most of these guys are in the likes of Emirates or Ethihad etc and doing well and good on them. Before the GFC airlines were desperate for pilots and even pilots from countries with sometimes questionable safety records (e.g. Indonesia and the Eastern Bloc) were being snapped-up by hungry low-cost carriers to the degree that flag-carriers (like PAL) were complaining that they were being bled-dry of pilots and would have to cancel flights - interestingly this has again happened just last week.
So back to our scenario and how it is fought. The Colgan case proved that an accident forced US Congress to legislate against unscrupulous airline managers employing lowly-experienced aircrews because they are unsafe. That must be one basis of our stance.
The other basis needs to be handled more discretely and that is that many licence-issuing countries just don't have the same standards as we do here. Yes pilots here have texted and messed-up A320 missed-approaches but on the whole standards are still way better than so many other countries and airlines. For short-sighted managers to go and gobble-up pilots from those countries (which as discussed previously is really just a tactic to try to pay lower wages and thus get themselves bigger and bigger bonuses) would be a direct threat to the Australian traveling public. This needs to be illustrated.
And the best PR winner in this regard is the Garuda 737 prang that killed the Aussie journalists. Even the government at the time stated that other countries don't have the same standards as we do. It's a fact and can be used to our benefit.
And finally, although I am aware I sound totally paranoid, as an 89'er I would have to beware of trolls on sites such as PPRuNe. Social networking has become such a powerful tool but in this case posts are anonymous. What better way for a full-time industrial relations person to undermine new-found pilot unity than spend a quick 5 mins on a site such as this feeding in seeds of doubt to undermine a timid and nervous group who have clearly had enough but aren't united.
That of course doesn't mean differing ideas should be howled down with tirades of childish abuse as is so often sadly the case but it does mean we need to be a little observant. Your unity is not something that airline managers want and their bonuses are directly impacted by this.
Think of the big picture and take advantage of the global pilot shortage and the fact that Aussie pilots are a sought-after commodity. Convert bitching energy into something tangible and you are on a winner.
Once again I apologise for taking so many lines to get my longwinded point across.
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I can't make the meeting either but support the endeavour to stop the rot. It would be a great day to see the reps from all unions and airlines standing side by side- A real turning point in aviation. Hopefully the media turn up to promote the issues our industry face. Best of luck.
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REG, you will rue the day you woke up all smug and released this FSO. You have f***ed over your employees for the last time. Let's all hope this brings about your downfall. What is even more appalling is that their own Chief Pilot and Standards Manager support Reg's actions.
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... What is even more appalling is that their own Chief Pilot and Standards Manager support Reg's actions.
I'm all for unity, but considering that everyone is in universal agreement that outsourcing our jobs is unacceptable, what exactly does anyone hope to acheive by this meeting?
Will the media be present? Will politicians be present? Does this meeting have the union backing required to educate the aforementioned and provide financial and logistical clout needed to mount a campain against this evil?
At this time, during an election campain, every union, association, and two bit lobby group with an agenda is advertising like hell to gain public attention and political favour. So during this golden oportunity, where is our lobby group, union or association? Where is the advertising campain? The silence is deafening.
Again I applaude the sentiment here, but the fact is that unless management pilots and the AFAP management get behind this then it'll be like p!ssing into the wind.
Ps. Happy to be called a pissant as long as someone comes up with an adequate word for those few individuals who are supposed to represent the many, that have the power to effect change, but have already decided there will be no action.
Last edited by psycho joe; 15th Aug 2010 at 01:11.
"Again I applaude the sentiment here, but the fact is that unless management pilots and the AFAP management get behind this then it'll be like p!ssing into the wind.
"
Exactly correct
"Exactly correct
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What JQ are trying is a new low.
And the best PR winner in this regard is the Garuda 737 prang that killed the Aussie journalists.
I agree that pilot standards depend largely on where the pilot was trained and flew but it is not fellow pilots that you are making your pitch to. For this "campaign" to have any success, it must have some appeal to the general public (via the media).
I respectfully suggest that you need to put more work into the case.
What is even more appalling is that their own Chief Pilot and Standards Manager support Reg's actions.
Their concerns would be about the standards of the foreign pilots - but at the same time, would be strongly of the belief that the checking and training system will weed out those unsuitable.
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Matter of Principle Here (Being missed by some)
You should not have any two people, in the same country, doing the same job in every way, but on different terms and conditions.
No member of the public would support this.
No politician would support this.
No Australian should support this !
Why our chief pilot supports it, I don't know?
This is not about more money, but maintaining what we have.
Two tier terms and conditions is simply wrong !
Don't let it come to Australia, and get rid of it in Christchurch NZ !
You should not have any two people, in the same country, doing the same job in every way, but on different terms and conditions.
No member of the public would support this.
No politician would support this.
No Australian should support this !
Why our chief pilot supports it, I don't know?
This is not about more money, but maintaining what we have.
Two tier terms and conditions is simply wrong !
Don't let it come to Australia, and get rid of it in Christchurch NZ !
Last edited by WB Bach; 15th Aug 2010 at 04:02.
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Their concerns would be about the standards of the foreign pilots - but at the same time, would be strongly of the belief that the checking and training system will weed out those unsuitable.
Read the history of what happened during a certain Australian aviation episode previously mentioned above.
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I think you fail to understand the role of these individuals. Their role has nothing to do with industrial relations or protecting aussie jobs.
They are in essence an extension of the management arm and in this case complete puppets. The strings are being pulled from above and without any sort of backbone will continue to flail about in the direction they are told.
If anything they should be helping to support "aussie jobs". Who is to say they are any less expendable than the rest of the crew anyway.