Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23
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Just a Question...
Why is there this repeated reference to "Foreign Pilots"? AFAIK you still need the right to Live and Work in OZ/NZ.
Are Australians returning home considered "Foreign Pilots" then...
Why is there this repeated reference to "Foreign Pilots"? AFAIK you still need the right to Live and Work in OZ/NZ.
Are Australians returning home considered "Foreign Pilots" then...
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Lets not Look Back Lets look forward as a TEAM
Guys lets put all the mistakes we have made in the past many many years.
As humans we make mistakes
LETS GET IT RIGHT THIS TIME
LETS STICK TOGETHER
LETS NOT PICK ON EACH OTHER
LETS SHOW SOME UNITY
LETS GET WHAT WE DESERVE FOR OUR PROFESSION
LETS GET A FAIR DEAL
LETS BE HONEST
COMEON AUSSIE COMEON....
WHATS ABOUT OUR TRADITION
GIVE EVERYONE A FAIR GOOOO....
As humans we make mistakes
LETS GET IT RIGHT THIS TIME
LETS STICK TOGETHER
LETS NOT PICK ON EACH OTHER
LETS SHOW SOME UNITY
LETS GET WHAT WE DESERVE FOR OUR PROFESSION
LETS GET A FAIR DEAL
LETS BE HONEST
COMEON AUSSIE COMEON....
WHATS ABOUT OUR TRADITION
GIVE EVERYONE A FAIR GOOOO....
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Q4NVS,
There are two "foreigner" scenarios to consider here....
1) The Aussie ex-pat returning home...... He/She would have the right to live and work in Australia so could be brought back to work in Australia on a cheaper contract basis.
Not so bad, but would be better if they came back onto our terms and conditions....
However, the more serious one.....
2) The Australian aircraft (VH registered, on JQ Australian AOC) "based" overseas that does the majority of its flying out of Australia. (Assume JQ base a 787 in Manilla. This aircraft is crewed by Phillipino crew who live in Manilla. It operates a 21 day pattern of flying that goes something like this: MNL-SYD-AKL-SYD-HNL-SYD-NRT-SYD-MEL-SIN-AKL-SYD-MNL etc etc). These crew do not need the right to live or work in Australia. They are simply foreign crew passing through. (They do require a CASA licence which im sure would only be a rubber stamp).
Scenario 2 is whats essentially planned for the next two A330's, except the base is Singapore. How long until they find another Asian country that is cheaper ? THIS IS THE SCENARIO WE MUST FIGHT TO AVOID
Jetstar is only doing what they are allowed to do by exploiting various grey areas of immigration laws, work laws and aviation regulation.
If you were Reg youd probably do the same. Maybe we should make the pollies aware of whats going on, and where it is potentially leading.
See you there !
There are two "foreigner" scenarios to consider here....
1) The Aussie ex-pat returning home...... He/She would have the right to live and work in Australia so could be brought back to work in Australia on a cheaper contract basis.
Not so bad, but would be better if they came back onto our terms and conditions....
However, the more serious one.....
2) The Australian aircraft (VH registered, on JQ Australian AOC) "based" overseas that does the majority of its flying out of Australia. (Assume JQ base a 787 in Manilla. This aircraft is crewed by Phillipino crew who live in Manilla. It operates a 21 day pattern of flying that goes something like this: MNL-SYD-AKL-SYD-HNL-SYD-NRT-SYD-MEL-SIN-AKL-SYD-MNL etc etc). These crew do not need the right to live or work in Australia. They are simply foreign crew passing through. (They do require a CASA licence which im sure would only be a rubber stamp).
Scenario 2 is whats essentially planned for the next two A330's, except the base is Singapore. How long until they find another Asian country that is cheaper ? THIS IS THE SCENARIO WE MUST FIGHT TO AVOID
Jetstar is only doing what they are allowed to do by exploiting various grey areas of immigration laws, work laws and aviation regulation.
If you were Reg youd probably do the same. Maybe we should make the pollies aware of whats going on, and where it is potentially leading.
See you there !
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Then of course you could play Dick Smiths sustainable population theory, unlike the average aussie family of 2 kids and one dog/cat, foreign pilots could come from some countries where it is normal to have 30 rellies living with you, sooooo 100 foreign pilots with 30 rellies each, mmm, this could cause Smith to go into meltdown! Tongue in cheek of course, but gee I would like to see you blokes and girls get this on a roll, the reality is it won't be long before the flood gates open, though you have to ask, where does immigration come into all this, if there is no shortage of Australian pilots, why would they be allowed in? You cannot front the govt, saying, well we just want cheaper labor, so if you don't mind old chap, sign this, even with the resident ratbags we have in there now, surely its not that easy.
Employers are becoming avaricious; all they care about is the bottom line. Cost cutting can not jeopardise good will, $200 to get somewhere has to get you there safely. They need to be convinced that cost cutting will affect safety. They are trying to attract and retain the best talent, how can they justify paying others a lot less money and not absolutely guarantee it won’t affect safety... quite simply they can’t and this will play on their minds. Run with it......
Hi guys,
Have only just noticed this thread - maybe someone could put a link on the GA section.
Good luck for the meeting, i'm in WA so won't be there but wish i was.
I'm currently in GA working my way up slowly, and will probably be on the end of one of these 'new' contracts in the future. It is heartening to hear of guys willing to put their hands up to secure what hopefully will be my future at some stage. I personally appreciate it.
The idea of the airlines is that they offer better terms/conditions/money than your typical GA job, but the more time passes it seems it's headed the other way.
If i/we in GA can do anything please let us know.
Good luck
Have only just noticed this thread - maybe someone could put a link on the GA section.
Good luck for the meeting, i'm in WA so won't be there but wish i was.
I'm currently in GA working my way up slowly, and will probably be on the end of one of these 'new' contracts in the future. It is heartening to hear of guys willing to put their hands up to secure what hopefully will be my future at some stage. I personally appreciate it.
The idea of the airlines is that they offer better terms/conditions/money than your typical GA job, but the more time passes it seems it's headed the other way.
If i/we in GA can do anything please let us know.
Good luck
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Still got that blue note warm in my pocket to put towards the fight.
Anyone know some media type that could leave the Ranga alone for a while and get busy setting up the filluming?
Lets see, $10 times XXXXX contributions = not a bad starting point for a fighting fund.
An investment in our countries (and others) future safety.
The excess contributions subtracted from the cost of putting on the webcast (if invested wisely, ie. don't but any Q shares) could keep the fighting fund going for the next (bend over boys and girls it's time to try out your next j* T&C's) at some point in the future.
No surprises that it already got up in Unzed.
kiwis would skin their own grandmother with a dull butter knife to put an aussie out of work.
Don't want to predict anything on PPrune, but what's the bet that the first J* A320 to spear in is crewed by drivers on that agreement.
If one of my relatives is involved AJ you can hide all of your gold as hard as you like back in Ireland. I will not stop until I have the very last gram!
Off to work
Anyone know some media type that could leave the Ranga alone for a while and get busy setting up the filluming?
Lets see, $10 times XXXXX contributions = not a bad starting point for a fighting fund.
An investment in our countries (and others) future safety.The excess contributions subtracted from the cost of putting on the webcast (if invested wisely, ie. don't but any Q shares) could keep the fighting fund going for the next (bend over boys and girls it's time to try out your next j* T&C's) at some point in the future.
No surprises that it already got up in Unzed.
kiwis would skin their own grandmother with a dull butter knife to put an aussie out of work.Don't want to predict anything on PPrune, but what's the bet that the first J* A320 to spear in is crewed by drivers on that agreement.
If one of my relatives is involved AJ you can hide all of your gold as hard as you like back in Ireland. I will not stop until I have the very last gram!
Off to work
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Yep, I totally see that!! Kiwis will crash an A320 because they are paid less!! Baldnfat you do realise there are a heap of us Aussies on that contract yeah ?Yep pretty much sums up why we are all in this mess. It's time to come together instead of slagging our sheep shagging neighbours off! Comments like that will never bring our pilot profession together. Just remember we sat by when the kiwis were crying for help with these ridiculous T&Cs being offered over there and laughed! Something about "cutting our nose off" We were warned it'll end up affecting us but as Aussies we seem to be more reactive than proactive.
Anyway, back to the thread, stand together boys and girls. BB and AJ are not long term industry people, they are CEO's. Spat out of the modern day university "how to make money 101" they will wreck this industry of ours and then walk away to another industry and wreck that. It's called capitalism. How to get rich quick as a CEO, at the expense of everyone under you.
Bond together and speak and think with intelligence. Make ourselves heard and unite! The kiwis didn't start this bloody mess, we did and we need to take ownership of that. I personally know a few Aussies skinning their cat as well as their nanna fir a job in Singapore flying an a340 on ****e T&Cs. Will they be the first to spud one of those in??
Anyway, back to the thread, stand together boys and girls. BB and AJ are not long term industry people, they are CEO's. Spat out of the modern day university "how to make money 101" they will wreck this industry of ours and then walk away to another industry and wreck that. It's called capitalism. How to get rich quick as a CEO, at the expense of everyone under you.
Bond together and speak and think with intelligence. Make ourselves heard and unite! The kiwis didn't start this bloody mess, we did and we need to take ownership of that. I personally know a few Aussies skinning their cat as well as their nanna fir a job in Singapore flying an a340 on ****e T&Cs. Will they be the first to spud one of those in??
Last edited by Fruet Mich; 13th Aug 2010 at 22:48.
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Baldnfat
'Don't want to predict anything on PPRuNe, but what's the bet that the first J* A320 to spear in is crewed by drivers on that agreement.'
Then don't.
Wasn't it an Australian based crew that was texting their mobile phone and forgot to put the gear down recently??
Meeting August 23rd
'Don't want to predict anything on PPRuNe, but what's the bet that the first J* A320 to spear in is crewed by drivers on that agreement.'
Then don't.
Wasn't it an Australian based crew that was texting their mobile phone and forgot to put the gear down recently??
Meeting August 23rd
Can I play devil's advocate for a moment? I'm sure there will be much more difficult questions coming from the Press in due course, but here's mine:
What is the difference between BHP (which I assume is still Australian owned?) having staff, who do most of their work in, say, China, being employed on Chinese wages, although they often do trips to Australia on Company business?
What is the difference between BHP (which I assume is still Australian owned?) having staff, who do most of their work in, say, China, being employed on Chinese wages, although they often do trips to Australia on Company business?
peuce
The big difference is that BHP-Billiton (which is actually a multi-national and isn’t majority Australian owned) employs non Australians in other countries like China to comply with local labour laws. They aren’t doing it in a cynical attempt to bypass Australian EBA’s and Australian laws like Jetstar are with Singapore based cockpit crew flying Australian registered aircraft through Australian skies on Australian licences obtained through exemptions of dodgy foreign licences from the Philippines.
The big difference is that BHP-Billiton (which is actually a multi-national and isn’t majority Australian owned) employs non Australians in other countries like China to comply with local labour laws. They aren’t doing it in a cynical attempt to bypass Australian EBA’s and Australian laws like Jetstar are with Singapore based cockpit crew flying Australian registered aircraft through Australian skies on Australian licences obtained through exemptions of dodgy foreign licences from the Philippines.
Okay ... beginning to get the picture ...
Therefore, in theory, if this exercise progresses to it's ultimate conclusion ... and the majority of pilots flying Australian Airlines, in and through Australia, live in, and are covered by and subject to, another Country's industrial system and culture ... the question of me being able to confidently get my flight out of Brisbane on any particular day may depend on the status of, say, the Phillipine's political environment at that time?
The Australian Government has got to be pretty happy with that?
Therefore, in theory, if this exercise progresses to it's ultimate conclusion ... and the majority of pilots flying Australian Airlines, in and through Australia, live in, and are covered by and subject to, another Country's industrial system and culture ... the question of me being able to confidently get my flight out of Brisbane on any particular day may depend on the status of, say, the Phillipine's political environment at that time?
The Australian Government has got to be pretty happy with that?
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Unfortunately this management mob have the runs on the board in the past. I think they may however, have bitten off a little more than they can chew this time.
I would hate to be in their shoes now. The upcoming road shows will be a blood bath for those flight ops types that slither into the crew rooms.
Great to see this type of unity for once.
As for these "managers "
get ready for an interesting time indeed.
I would hate to be in their shoes now. The upcoming road shows will be a blood bath for those flight ops types that slither into the crew rooms.
Great to see this type of unity for once.
As for these "managers "
get ready for an interesting time indeed.
quote "Anyway, back to the thread, stand together boys and girls. BB and AJ are not long term industry people, they are CEO's. Spat out of the modern day university "how to make money 101" they will wreck this industry of ours and then walk away to another industry and wreck that"
The real blame is on the likes of Tiger/Air AsiaX. Sub standard operators that are allowed into this country. Airlines need to be charging more for airfares to make a profit and pay staff accordingly.
I would be asking the Government how many hours does an Air ASIAX A330 FO have? What about the busting of altitude on the approach to OOL
Fight this on safety. Fighting this on your needs wont get any sympathy
CASA needs to tighten up
The real blame is on the likes of Tiger/Air AsiaX. Sub standard operators that are allowed into this country. Airlines need to be charging more for airfares to make a profit and pay staff accordingly.
I would be asking the Government how many hours does an Air ASIAX A330 FO have? What about the busting of altitude on the approach to OOL
Fight this on safety. Fighting this on your needs wont get any sympathy
CASA needs to tighten up
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Unity Brings Result
lets keep going guys
stick as a team and lets all play our part for the greater good of our aviation and future
its for everyone of us who flies in RA,GA,Regional,Airline.
I heard this today that Jetstar have taken expereinced First officers A320 and then told them they dont have a job...... because they have enough pilots at the moment.
These are Australian guys coming back after flying in Asia for some time.
this is truly amazing as I thought you put people who have experience flying the Planes.
where is this going to end .ONLY WHEN AN ACCIDENT HAPPENS??????
By the time it will be too late......................
The likes of BB and his clans should not be allowed to do this .......
Lets stick together...
lets fight the good fight
lets look after each other
stick as a team and lets all play our part for the greater good of our aviation and future
its for everyone of us who flies in RA,GA,Regional,Airline.
I heard this today that Jetstar have taken expereinced First officers A320 and then told them they dont have a job...... because they have enough pilots at the moment.
These are Australian guys coming back after flying in Asia for some time.
this is truly amazing as I thought you put people who have experience flying the Planes.
where is this going to end .ONLY WHEN AN ACCIDENT HAPPENS??????
By the time it will be too late......................
The likes of BB and his clans should not be allowed to do this .......
Lets stick together...
lets fight the good fight
lets look after each other
"Sound asleep" is wide awake on this one!
The battle must be fought on the basis of safety. The cynical general public have an attention span of 2 seconds when it comes to how people are employed and what they are paid. But when they hear about their own safety they are all ears and vote with their dollars.
The Safety belief is the QF (hence JQ) commercial mainstay. It is the line in the sand for everything we are discussing - and the primary interest of all the stakeholders - JQ/QF management, CASA, pilot standards, media interest, insurance companies, friends and relatives, stock market, tourism operators, politicians..... they all must perceive the threat and how it will affect them (especially in an election period). Sound safety standards will be eroded - this should be our mantra and message to the world.
Ultimately it will be the safety message that bring commercial pressure to bear.
The battle must be fought on the basis of safety. The cynical general public have an attention span of 2 seconds when it comes to how people are employed and what they are paid. But when they hear about their own safety they are all ears and vote with their dollars.
The Safety belief is the QF (hence JQ) commercial mainstay. It is the line in the sand for everything we are discussing - and the primary interest of all the stakeholders - JQ/QF management, CASA, pilot standards, media interest, insurance companies, friends and relatives, stock market, tourism operators, politicians..... they all must perceive the threat and how it will affect them (especially in an election period). Sound safety standards will be eroded - this should be our mantra and message to the world.
Ultimately it will be the safety message that bring commercial pressure to bear.
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Hypocrasy at it's finest!
RE: Roj approved
Let me see if I have this straight...
You have returned from working overseas and now that you are back you want to ensure that all positions for pilots in Australia go to Australian pilots??? Do you fail to see the hypocrasy of this ethic? You have no issue going overseas and taking a job away from a foreign pilot but you aren't willing to have a foreign pilot come to Australia? I've always realised that as a group you aren't the sharpest tools in the shed but this really does boggle the mind!
By all means please explain your logic - I look forward to hearing how you justify such blatant double standards for yourself and the hundreds of other Australian pilots who have taken positions overseas. No doubt there is a very special pilot logic that as a mere mortal I am failing to grasp. I am sure that the explanation will be worth the wait
I work for the offending (offensive?) airline.
I recently returned from a stint O/S after losing my job in Aus.
I have been flying with 200hr "foreign" pilots in a Modern Jet.
I came home because Australia is the place I want to be.
I am concerned with the CEO's plans.
I want to keep Australian jobs for Australians.
I recently returned from a stint O/S after losing my job in Aus.
I have been flying with 200hr "foreign" pilots in a Modern Jet.
I came home because Australia is the place I want to be.
I am concerned with the CEO's plans.
I want to keep Australian jobs for Australians.
Let me see if I have this straight...
You have returned from working overseas and now that you are back you want to ensure that all positions for pilots in Australia go to Australian pilots??? Do you fail to see the hypocrasy of this ethic? You have no issue going overseas and taking a job away from a foreign pilot but you aren't willing to have a foreign pilot come to Australia? I've always realised that as a group you aren't the sharpest tools in the shed but this really does boggle the mind!
By all means please explain your logic - I look forward to hearing how you justify such blatant double standards for yourself and the hundreds of other Australian pilots who have taken positions overseas. No doubt there is a very special pilot logic that as a mere mortal I am failing to grasp. I am sure that the explanation will be worth the wait
Clockwork Doll
You are are new here aren't you? Your ignorance of what's going on stands out like dog bollocks.
Those pilots that went off overseas took jobs at the going rate in that country, they did not under cut the locals to get those jobs. The vast majority of these pilots got the jobs they did because there were not enough locals to do the job. This is not what is going on here.
In the case of Jetstar
1. There are enough appropriately qualified local pilots to fly these aircraft.
2. The wages being paid to the "imports" undercut those paid to locals.
3. The whole thing is being done in an underhand manner to get around the local immigarion rules.
As you mentioned many of us pilots aren't Einstiens and this is not "very special pilot logic"
I trust you have the mental acuity to understand what is actually going on.
You are are new here aren't you? Your ignorance of what's going on stands out like dog bollocks.
Those pilots that went off overseas took jobs at the going rate in that country, they did not under cut the locals to get those jobs. The vast majority of these pilots got the jobs they did because there were not enough locals to do the job. This is not what is going on here.
In the case of Jetstar
1. There are enough appropriately qualified local pilots to fly these aircraft.
2. The wages being paid to the "imports" undercut those paid to locals.
3. The whole thing is being done in an underhand manner to get around the local immigarion rules.
As you mentioned many of us pilots aren't Einstiens and this is not "very special pilot logic"
I trust you have the mental acuity to understand what is actually going on.