VBA Multiple EBA Woes
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Thanks for the link to the VIPA decision.
Well, I admit that I did go into VA with the knowledge that it wasn't Emirates, ETIHAD, Qatar or even QF. I knew that the light rosters were only transitory. But I wasn't complaining about that. I save that little tidbit for later.
Who said I was a cruise FO. Even if I was, why is it so unbelievable that a cruise FO could know anyone in VB with the knowledge. Its hardly a secret. I'm told that the number is just to cope with attrition not expansion.
Having said that, no one has tried to explain why VIPA will do a better job than the AFAP.
I agree that the VA pilots need to be organised now. Not necessarily that it should be under VIPA. The recent (in)action at VB by the AFAP was more to do with the VB pilots themselves as stated by ad-astra earlier in this thread. The lack of support for their own pilots screwed over both FOs and CRFOs at VA. In fact the outcome for the VB pilots pushed to VA was probably pretty good for them in addition to the existing requirement that all the command slots for aircraft 4-7 have to be offered to VB pilots.
The VB Pilot Council happily went down that path with the full knowledge of the ramifications both for their own guys and VA pilots. So now,with the weight of numbers against VA pilots why would I trust them to act in my interests in a single representative body. I understand why the VIPA advocates want this - more pilots means more subscriptions, without which it is difficult to fight the big battles.
The best outcome is a organisation that only represents VA pilots. That doesn't mean that it can't be the same union or that that can't work together, just separate councils, voting, issues etc.
Remember - SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES - Not really good for anything but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.
Well, I admit that I did go into VA with the knowledge that it wasn't Emirates, ETIHAD, Qatar or even QF. I knew that the light rosters were only transitory. But I wasn't complaining about that. I save that little tidbit for later.
Who said I was a cruise FO. Even if I was, why is it so unbelievable that a cruise FO could know anyone in VB with the knowledge. Its hardly a secret. I'm told that the number is just to cope with attrition not expansion.
Having said that, no one has tried to explain why VIPA will do a better job than the AFAP.
I agree that the VA pilots need to be organised now. Not necessarily that it should be under VIPA. The recent (in)action at VB by the AFAP was more to do with the VB pilots themselves as stated by ad-astra earlier in this thread. The lack of support for their own pilots screwed over both FOs and CRFOs at VA. In fact the outcome for the VB pilots pushed to VA was probably pretty good for them in addition to the existing requirement that all the command slots for aircraft 4-7 have to be offered to VB pilots.
The VB Pilot Council happily went down that path with the full knowledge of the ramifications both for their own guys and VA pilots. So now,with the weight of numbers against VA pilots why would I trust them to act in my interests in a single representative body. I understand why the VIPA advocates want this - more pilots means more subscriptions, without which it is difficult to fight the big battles.
The best outcome is a organisation that only represents VA pilots. That doesn't mean that it can't be the same union or that that can't work together, just separate councils, voting, issues etc.
Remember - SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES - Not really good for anything but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.
Last edited by hunglo; 8th Sep 2009 at 11:47. Reason: forgot to say somthing
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Keeping The Air Fair
I dont know what all the fuss is about ? I mean, VB is about 'keeping the air fair', and says nothing about 'keeping salaries fair' ? I dont understand all the moanings and groanings taking place, wheres all that virgin flair, that love of 'giving the underdog' a go ????
I always love how people follow the pied piper, in this case people follow the banter, promises, fun and excitement offered to those who wish to join Bransons global empire.Then once onboard, find out the stark reality - An empire built globally upon the 'good will and willingness of staff to work for a bowl of rice slary' so that the good of the greater mankind can recieve fair prices every day'!
Absolute fools ! The 90% of the underpaid plebs suffer so that the 10% of Management can fill their pockets with giant salaries, bonuses,perks, and if the general staff knew even a tenth of what kind of cash the Executives are squirelling away then there would be civil war.
Friends, wakey wakey, you are being used and abused for the absolute sole purpose of making a handful of hand picked chosen ones extremely wealthy. If any employee at VB ( below management level) desires to become rich in life, acquire a nestegg that will care for your loved ones in the future, well you better start typing out your resignation letter now !
I always love how people follow the pied piper, in this case people follow the banter, promises, fun and excitement offered to those who wish to join Bransons global empire.Then once onboard, find out the stark reality - An empire built globally upon the 'good will and willingness of staff to work for a bowl of rice slary' so that the good of the greater mankind can recieve fair prices every day'!
Absolute fools ! The 90% of the underpaid plebs suffer so that the 10% of Management can fill their pockets with giant salaries, bonuses,perks, and if the general staff knew even a tenth of what kind of cash the Executives are squirelling away then there would be civil war.
Friends, wakey wakey, you are being used and abused for the absolute sole purpose of making a handful of hand picked chosen ones extremely wealthy. If any employee at VB ( below management level) desires to become rich in life, acquire a nestegg that will care for your loved ones in the future, well you better start typing out your resignation letter now !
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...VIPA will accelerate their membership numbers with warp-speed so that us VB/VA guys will finally be represented.
I might suggest you include your PB/Poly mates in that too, as the Tasman is now becoming 1 Domestic market and the writing is on the wall! ('89 will look like a tea-party) Their terms are currently expired and under discussion so it might be prudent for your own T&C's, for your VB/VA Pilot Council to be envolved in some form.
Look at what Jetstar have done with their previously Aust-payed - N.Z based crew and what is in store for the mainland company...
I might suggest you include your PB/Poly mates in that too, as the Tasman is now becoming 1 Domestic market and the writing is on the wall! ('89 will look like a tea-party) Their terms are currently expired and under discussion so it might be prudent for your own T&C's, for your VB/VA Pilot Council to be envolved in some form.
Look at what Jetstar have done with their previously Aust-payed - N.Z based crew and what is in store for the mainland company...
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Swanrider - my oversight, you're absolutely right and I stand corrected. The best way forward for the pilots in the antipodean Virgin empire is to join ranks and be represented by a common organisation. The advantages are many - carreer path progression for ALL, so that CRFO's in VA can get sticktime in a narrowbody jet and it will be worthwhile to persue a widebody carreer for those currently plying the skies in domestic or shorthaul Pacific ops. Theres currently a poll going in the internal VA staff Website regarding this issue and whilst I have greater belief in VIPA (as it has had less time and opportunity to become corrupted by the power of "representation"). the most impportant part is to get everybody in line for the next EBA negotiations.
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Art, The majority of CRFOs are not juniors with a couple of hundred hours in a B-76. A large proportion have been captains in SAABs, metros, Jets under 40tonnes etc. Some have heavy jet time in 747, 767s just not the 2000hrs of heavy jet time initially required by VA. The forced move of VB pilots saw that criteria substanially reduced to 500hrs VB time for an FO slot in VA. What skills do you think will be learned by the CRFOs flying domesticly in Australia that they don't allready have? Before anyone wanks on about energy management and swept wings have a think about their unsupported operations in to remote and regional airports and the people being taken off the street in to VB as FOs in the last couple of years and in the very begining. Examples would be unfair to the individuals concerned but anyone in VB knows what I am talking about. Do you honestly believe that you can take a metro or Dash-8 FO /Capt into VB as a FO on a 737 but it can't be done in a B777.
Quote:
"Art, The majority of CRFOs are not juniors with a couple of hundred hours in a B-76. A large proportion have been captains in SAABs, metros, Jets under 40tonnes etc."
Now I can almost understand a junior with a couple of hundred hours in a B-76 jumping into a situation such as this. Almost! But can anyone shed some light on what drives a person in the above quoted catagory, to effectively halt their career for a permanent seat in the back of a 777, on what has to be the most appalling wages and conditions of long haul anywhere!?
I certainly have no problem with the concept of working your way up, but from what I've seen of the VA contract, unless you have at least 2,000 hours of "heavy" Jet time, you aint' going nowhere! As well, you don't even have the prospect of incremental pay rises.
Just doesn't make sense to me?
"Art, The majority of CRFOs are not juniors with a couple of hundred hours in a B-76. A large proportion have been captains in SAABs, metros, Jets under 40tonnes etc."
Now I can almost understand a junior with a couple of hundred hours in a B-76 jumping into a situation such as this. Almost! But can anyone shed some light on what drives a person in the above quoted catagory, to effectively halt their career for a permanent seat in the back of a 777, on what has to be the most appalling wages and conditions of long haul anywhere!?
I certainly have no problem with the concept of working your way up, but from what I've seen of the VA contract, unless you have at least 2,000 hours of "heavy" Jet time, you aint' going nowhere! As well, you don't even have the prospect of incremental pay rises.
Just doesn't make sense to me?
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Interestingly enough Knowall most if not all of the VB FO's had substantial time with at least one having heavy command experience ,another over 5000 hours on B777s and another one having substantial B737 international command time in Europe. As for the Captains there is a deed in place between the two companies which came from the CEO so I can't see that changing.
Might pay to do some research although that might wreck the sob story.
Might pay to do some research although that might wreck the sob story.
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Two unions a bargaining position do not make.
V Australia management must be loving every minute of this!
You are probably better off out of both unions, just form a
negotiating committee, it's got to be more useful than two
freaking unions. AIPA would be a better option.
V Australia management must be loving every minute of this!
You are probably better off out of both unions, just form a
negotiating committee, it's got to be more useful than two
freaking unions. AIPA would be a better option.
Not happy knowall? Well, neither were a significant number of the 800+ VB pilots when we didn't get all we wanted in the V Oz start-up. So we have had to settle for 4/7th's of the commands up to aircraft 7 (as per the EBA)... so be it, thats life and we have moved on.
As for VB seconded F/O's & CRZ F/O's? Well V management made a fair point, that if V was to become over-crewed, then VB would do what it could to take 777 surplus crew into the domestic operation to protect YOUR jobs too. So it cuts both ways.
If you have an issue coming to VB, then maybe you should take that point up with your management, since it is THEY who have instigated the career path option for CRZ F/O's and F/O's into VB.
Right now I would be more concern with whether we ALL have a job in 12 months time, if the haemorrhaging doesn't stop at V !!!
As for VB seconded F/O's & CRZ F/O's? Well V management made a fair point, that if V was to become over-crewed, then VB would do what it could to take 777 surplus crew into the domestic operation to protect YOUR jobs too. So it cuts both ways.
If you have an issue coming to VB, then maybe you should take that point up with your management, since it is THEY who have instigated the career path option for CRZ F/O's and F/O's into VB.
Right now I would be more concern with whether we ALL have a job in 12 months time, if the haemorrhaging doesn't stop at V !!!
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So we have had to settle for 4/7th's of the commands up to aircraft 7
As if CASA would have given approval for you wannabes to startup a long haul operation on a 777. You were damn lucky to get any commands on the first 7 aircraft at all.
"wannabes" eh Balibo. There are dozens of Longhaul experienced captains in VB. Given that the VA Chief Pilot didn't even have a 777 rating when he started at VA (not that it is really relevant) your ignorant sledging shows you up for the bitter and twisted knob that you are. Great first post sport
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air command, 'not happy' is not adequate statement
The career progression stated at the interviews is not what is now being touted by VB pilots (our own management refuses to answer the questions). The quote that anthill posted was not given to interviewees (at least not me or anyone else I have asked). Recently 6 PB FO positions were advertised internally, a few more than that applied, two CRFOs with NG ratings were offered positions, however there was no right of return (hardly career progression if you can't come back) and the remaining applicants (CRFOs and FOs) could not be released by VA??!! No explanation as to why.
I would take it up with management but we don't seem to have any. All the decisions seem to be made at VB and they won't speak to us. We were told that VB pilots did not want to come across to VA at the start. The agreement for commands to be offered on 4/7th of the ordered aircraft whilst not made obvious to us it was discovered relatively early.
My winge is that now the VB pilots (and a few twisted souls at VA who began their long haul careers with 1500hrs as 2nd officers / cadets and spent quite a while there) are pushing the idea that CRFOs and FOs need to go to VB to "gain experience" so that they can come across in front of us who took the risk of a new start up. Clearly this is unnecessary for a large proportion of CRFOs and FOs. What experience will VB pilots bring to VA ops that can't be learned at VA by the current CRFOs and FOs?
If most of us had known this we would not have bothered joining VA. At the time VB (along with everyone else) was recruiting heavily. The fastest path would have been to join VB/NJ/SW and by now we would only have a short time to go to acquire the 1000hrs (I was corrected by Beeroclock but yet to confirm it). More to the point if the only way to progress is to leave then those with experience probably will as soon as a viable option appears.
Its a pity air command that you seem to think that VA is hemorrhaging money. As I understand it, it is loosing less money than was planned upon. I don't think anyone on these forums predicted the implosion of the US and European banking systems. So how could you expect VB to, once VB started down this path is was impossible to back out without bankrupting VB.
I know its been pointed out earlier but, it costs money to start a new business. VB was not profitable in its first few years why would you expect VA to be? More than half the 160m loss was due to management stuff ups (fuel hedging / currency exchange) not VA. Loads have been good but in the end they need more aircraft to expand the business to defray the start up and overhead costs. The only other alternative is for VB to grab more market share without reducing yields.
The career progression stated at the interviews is not what is now being touted by VB pilots (our own management refuses to answer the questions). The quote that anthill posted was not given to interviewees (at least not me or anyone else I have asked). Recently 6 PB FO positions were advertised internally, a few more than that applied, two CRFOs with NG ratings were offered positions, however there was no right of return (hardly career progression if you can't come back) and the remaining applicants (CRFOs and FOs) could not be released by VA??!! No explanation as to why.
I would take it up with management but we don't seem to have any. All the decisions seem to be made at VB and they won't speak to us. We were told that VB pilots did not want to come across to VA at the start. The agreement for commands to be offered on 4/7th of the ordered aircraft whilst not made obvious to us it was discovered relatively early.
My winge is that now the VB pilots (and a few twisted souls at VA who began their long haul careers with 1500hrs as 2nd officers / cadets and spent quite a while there) are pushing the idea that CRFOs and FOs need to go to VB to "gain experience" so that they can come across in front of us who took the risk of a new start up. Clearly this is unnecessary for a large proportion of CRFOs and FOs. What experience will VB pilots bring to VA ops that can't be learned at VA by the current CRFOs and FOs?
If most of us had known this we would not have bothered joining VA. At the time VB (along with everyone else) was recruiting heavily. The fastest path would have been to join VB/NJ/SW and by now we would only have a short time to go to acquire the 1000hrs (I was corrected by Beeroclock but yet to confirm it). More to the point if the only way to progress is to leave then those with experience probably will as soon as a viable option appears.
Its a pity air command that you seem to think that VA is hemorrhaging money. As I understand it, it is loosing less money than was planned upon. I don't think anyone on these forums predicted the implosion of the US and European banking systems. So how could you expect VB to, once VB started down this path is was impossible to back out without bankrupting VB.
I know its been pointed out earlier but, it costs money to start a new business. VB was not profitable in its first few years why would you expect VA to be? More than half the 160m loss was due to management stuff ups (fuel hedging / currency exchange) not VA. Loads have been good but in the end they need more aircraft to expand the business to defray the start up and overhead costs. The only other alternative is for VB to grab more market share without reducing yields.
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Firstly, to those VA pilots posting here, welcome to the Virgin Blue group. Yes, I know this is a new perspective for some of you but Vaus happens to be PART of the Virgin Blue group. So from those of us who've worked here for a while, welcome. Secondly, I really can't understand the comments regarding VB scraping the bottom of the barrel last year or the year before that for pilots. What has lead the less intelligent of your clan to come to this conclusion? You may rest assured that there has been a wealth of versatile experience employed into the airline in this time and for you to suggest otherwise without backing your claim makes you appear quite dumb! I am aware of a few Vaus pilots who were unsuccessful with their attempts at VB who were subsequently selected by Vaus. Care to comment? Thirdly, I think most VB pilots are aware of the experience of some of the Vaus cruise FOs and realise that they have every right to progress with minimum fuss however, it is not our fault that the agreement reached in our EBA regarding VB pilots crewing Vaus aircraft was not part of the information given to you at the interview by Vaus management. These VB pilots taking Senior FO and Captain postions was ALWAYS going to happen and the redundancy issue merely expedited things. At the end of the day you accepted a position that has been widely criticised for its terms and conditions and you did it why? Because someone told you it would get better? Maybe some of you really haven't been in this game for very long. Best regards.
"in front of us who took the risk of a new start up"
If Vaus fails, so does VB, so all those that put in the work for years to place VB into a position to start Vaus, and give your your shiny 777 involuntarily took the said risk..........
If Vaus fails, so does VB, so all those that put in the work for years to place VB into a position to start Vaus, and give your your shiny 777 involuntarily took the said risk..........
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All those people that took CFO positions will just have to suck it up!! You should be ashamed for accepting those positions all you managed to do was fuel the fire of management that they can pay us nothing and we will still accept it..
As for the hours required being lowered for Vb guys/girls to come across i find it amusing some CFOs didnt even have the 1000 hours to become a CFO in the first place..
Without even going to a interview i was well aware that accepting a CFO position was locking yourself into the backseat for many years,that was there plan from the start but most of you went in with stars in your eyes and blinkers on.You cant all complain now but it was pretty much common knowledge what you were all accepting..And that was pineapples turned sideways and you all lined up in droves to bend over and say when...
If nobody even applied they would have had to rethink what was on offer at least then if you were going to be stuck in the back as a second officer(oops sorry cruise first officer) you might have at least been on some better T and Cs..
I have no pity for guys/girls out there trying to fast track us all to the lowest paid pilots in the western world..I hope you all do hurry up and move on elsewhere so they realise they need to change whats on offer so people generally can move through the ranks of aviation and it wont be a pay cut from there current job to accept it..
Im with Krusty i just dont get why anyone with all that experience would choose to take these positions again apart from trying to fast track us to working for free!!
As for the hours required being lowered for Vb guys/girls to come across i find it amusing some CFOs didnt even have the 1000 hours to become a CFO in the first place..
Without even going to a interview i was well aware that accepting a CFO position was locking yourself into the backseat for many years,that was there plan from the start but most of you went in with stars in your eyes and blinkers on.You cant all complain now but it was pretty much common knowledge what you were all accepting..And that was pineapples turned sideways and you all lined up in droves to bend over and say when...
If nobody even applied they would have had to rethink what was on offer at least then if you were going to be stuck in the back as a second officer(oops sorry cruise first officer) you might have at least been on some better T and Cs..
I have no pity for guys/girls out there trying to fast track us all to the lowest paid pilots in the western world..I hope you all do hurry up and move on elsewhere so they realise they need to change whats on offer so people generally can move through the ranks of aviation and it wont be a pay cut from there current job to accept it..
Im with Krusty i just dont get why anyone with all that experience would choose to take these positions again apart from trying to fast track us to working for free!!
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Thank you for the welcome biton. I can't comment on why VB didn't take some. Was it too old / young / ugly / fat / gay/ not gay enough / bad hair day in the sim or interview / didn't have sufficient virgin flare? To my knowledge of all the CRFOs and FOs only 1 VA CRFO required any additional sim or line training.
If I may correct you. The agreement attached to the VB EBA is for VB pilots to be offered commands in 4/7th of the first 7 aircraft. Not FO slots. Also I didn't make any comment about VB scrapping the bottom of the barrel for pilots. I assume the author was having a crack at the VA pilots. I do believe that for those with experience there is nothing to learn at VB that couldn't be learned in VA.
I imagine we were all hoping VA would follow the VB path. I remember far enough back to the widespread condemnation of 'Pay your own endorsement' and 'Crappy terms and conditions' condemned by all 9 years ago. You seem to have a convenient memory Beeroclock or perhaps you are not old enough to remember. You now condemn us for the same path that the VB pilots took.
Beeroclock given your comments I can only assume that you haven't worked long in GA or a regional or ever worked in place you or your wife didn't like. With so little common ground it is impossible to explain to you why those with experience took the job. Also the criteria referred to was 1000hrs in jets over 40tonnes not 1000TT and that was only available to the VB pilots facing redundancy all of us who were already there had to have 2000hrs in jets over 40tonnes for a FO slot and 4000hrs in jets over 40tonnes for a command.
Chookcooker we didn't decide to start VA anymore than you started VB. VB pilots had first dibs to come across and didn't take it. Now those same people are trying to shaft us for the position they didn't initially want. The risk to VB is only in a disorderly shutdown in the climate of the recent past. We took the risk when times were good and VB could have sold the aircraft on before delivery leaving us high and dry. Those times will return sooner than most realize. I would have thought that the major shareholders were the ones who took the risk and in doing so risked your and now my job. The recent equity raising was over subscribed, so obviously some have confidence in the future. As I said before loads have been really good. Apparently almost every seat in October has been sold
If I may correct you. The agreement attached to the VB EBA is for VB pilots to be offered commands in 4/7th of the first 7 aircraft. Not FO slots. Also I didn't make any comment about VB scrapping the bottom of the barrel for pilots. I assume the author was having a crack at the VA pilots. I do believe that for those with experience there is nothing to learn at VB that couldn't be learned in VA.
I imagine we were all hoping VA would follow the VB path. I remember far enough back to the widespread condemnation of 'Pay your own endorsement' and 'Crappy terms and conditions' condemned by all 9 years ago. You seem to have a convenient memory Beeroclock or perhaps you are not old enough to remember. You now condemn us for the same path that the VB pilots took.
Beeroclock given your comments I can only assume that you haven't worked long in GA or a regional or ever worked in place you or your wife didn't like. With so little common ground it is impossible to explain to you why those with experience took the job. Also the criteria referred to was 1000hrs in jets over 40tonnes not 1000TT and that was only available to the VB pilots facing redundancy all of us who were already there had to have 2000hrs in jets over 40tonnes for a FO slot and 4000hrs in jets over 40tonnes for a command.
Chookcooker we didn't decide to start VA anymore than you started VB. VB pilots had first dibs to come across and didn't take it. Now those same people are trying to shaft us for the position they didn't initially want. The risk to VB is only in a disorderly shutdown in the climate of the recent past. We took the risk when times were good and VB could have sold the aircraft on before delivery leaving us high and dry. Those times will return sooner than most realize. I would have thought that the major shareholders were the ones who took the risk and in doing so risked your and now my job. The recent equity raising was over subscribed, so obviously some have confidence in the future. As I said before loads have been really good. Apparently almost every seat in October has been sold