VBA Multiple EBA Woes
"Now those same people are trying to shaft us for the position they didn't initially want"
Incorrect.
When Vb announced its Vaus plans, almost every driver was keen to get in on the action.
It was the conditions, not the position that they didn't want.
Even still there is no ill will or feelings towards the Vaus pilot group that I know of. Its just that on top of everything thats gone on with the whole mess, now some Vaus people are toting the "they're taking OUR upgrades" Bull****e.
Best of luck to all, but now you might have learned the hard way, that if management told you that tomorrow the sun would rise, you might do well to second guess that.
Welcome to the egalitarian, 'we are all equal', no seniority, Virgin Blue Group.
Incorrect.
When Vb announced its Vaus plans, almost every driver was keen to get in on the action.
It was the conditions, not the position that they didn't want.
Even still there is no ill will or feelings towards the Vaus pilot group that I know of. Its just that on top of everything thats gone on with the whole mess, now some Vaus people are toting the "they're taking OUR upgrades" Bull****e.
Best of luck to all, but now you might have learned the hard way, that if management told you that tomorrow the sun would rise, you might do well to second guess that.
Welcome to the egalitarian, 'we are all equal', no seniority, Virgin Blue Group.
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Knowall..Ten years mate since i learnt to fly to get on a jet cause i wasnt prepared to sell my sole or anyone elses just to do it!! And apart from that my main concern is how much i will earn and how many days off i get,i couldnt give a sh*t what i fly. And the 1000 hours i was referring to was 1000 hours of VB time to go across as an FO to V..the 1000 total i was referring to was for the CFO positions for anyone to apply which im led to believe certain special ones didnt even have that when they started there co pilot endorse with V to be a CFO..Since they were prepared to sell there soles to be there i dont see any problem with them being made to wait 4 or 5 years for an upgrade just as all the guys and girls at QF have to that start as second officers..You dont hear them crying about how long for there FO slot..Oh thats right they dont need to cause they can live off there wages unlike the V CFOs..
Sit and wait like eveyone else..How long has V been about and you are already crying about your upgrade...
Chook is 100 percent on the money..It wasnt the positions Vb people didnt want it was the pathetic terms and conditions..
I hope V goes really well and if it does before everyone knows it there will be alot of movement of seats eveywhere.Until then its a matter of sitting and waiting to see what happens with the whole VB group,interesting times ahead i think for all those involved..If V does do well hopefully the T and Cs will change the only problem is they started at a pretty dismal point so it will be a while before they are on par with other carriers out there.. One thing that must happen is all Virgin Group pilots need to be in the one union!!
Sit and wait like eveyone else..How long has V been about and you are already crying about your upgrade...
Chook is 100 percent on the money..It wasnt the positions Vb people didnt want it was the pathetic terms and conditions..
I hope V goes really well and if it does before everyone knows it there will be alot of movement of seats eveywhere.Until then its a matter of sitting and waiting to see what happens with the whole VB group,interesting times ahead i think for all those involved..If V does do well hopefully the T and Cs will change the only problem is they started at a pretty dismal point so it will be a while before they are on par with other carriers out there.. One thing that must happen is all Virgin Group pilots need to be in the one union!!
Last edited by Beeroclock; 16th Sep 2009 at 08:14.
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There are dozens of Longhaul experienced captains in VB
Missing the point Vorsicht. Current debate concerns command and FO slots into the future. The cruise FOs now realize that they are probably stuck in the highchair for a fair while, and shiny plane syndrome has worn off. Sydney can't be much fun on 55k a year.
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I dunno Vorsicht, CASA seem to do whatever QF and VB tell them these days...... Kinda like being married I guess!!! Still I guess my earlier question of how long before the whining starts is now answered.
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Couldn't agree more with last comments. Major issues at hand are career progression for CRFO's and F/O's and salary increase for CRFO's. The money they are on is appalling.
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This Whole thing is quite the laugh. All who are really in the industry know this is the WORST 777 long haul conditions in the modern western world (airlines)
The VB drivers make significantly more money, (just got a 3% pay rise July 1 and will again next year and the next year after that, thats more the 18G base difference alone), have more guaranteed days off, have overtime, have payment in replace for coming in on a day off. All which VA drivers get none of. All the VB drivers could have gone over to VA but didn't when they looked at the S&*%t conditions. The only ones who did (about 6 Capts) all openly admit they are getting around $2000 less a month (particularly the 2 checkies who are losing more) plus the loss for commuting on top of that.
The Fo and CFO positions are made up primarily of stary eyed shiny jet wanna be's who have not got into most other airlines. I know a dozen or so CFO's who even missed out on VB, but took this from their GA jobs.
(But you know what, there's nothing even wrong with that, as that is their prerogative and choice)
And thats the market they were aiming at to fill these positions.
The layovers are already down to 29 hours in LA and once the fiji and phuket returns start watch how non guaranteed days off disappear. (yes they only get 9 days off a calendar month) average at virgin B is 14 per 28 days.!
I laugh at the ones saying VB people are taking our jobs/upgrades or they took the risk like VB did 9 years ago. IT is 100% VB owned you dim whits !!!
And there lies the truth. I dont think anyone at VA is a bad person themselves etc, HOWEVER you all knew the terms and conditions when you joined, before you signed the contract. Cant whinge now. Don't be surprised when you are Fo's on the EMB in 5 years to get your TIME UP! with the promise of getting back to 777 asap.
PS the currently full flights are only because the MEL flights were cancelled for OCT and are now be rerouted to existing flights ex SYD and BNE.
The VB drivers make significantly more money, (just got a 3% pay rise July 1 and will again next year and the next year after that, thats more the 18G base difference alone), have more guaranteed days off, have overtime, have payment in replace for coming in on a day off. All which VA drivers get none of. All the VB drivers could have gone over to VA but didn't when they looked at the S&*%t conditions. The only ones who did (about 6 Capts) all openly admit they are getting around $2000 less a month (particularly the 2 checkies who are losing more) plus the loss for commuting on top of that.
The Fo and CFO positions are made up primarily of stary eyed shiny jet wanna be's who have not got into most other airlines. I know a dozen or so CFO's who even missed out on VB, but took this from their GA jobs.
(But you know what, there's nothing even wrong with that, as that is their prerogative and choice)
And thats the market they were aiming at to fill these positions.
The layovers are already down to 29 hours in LA and once the fiji and phuket returns start watch how non guaranteed days off disappear. (yes they only get 9 days off a calendar month) average at virgin B is 14 per 28 days.!
I laugh at the ones saying VB people are taking our jobs/upgrades or they took the risk like VB did 9 years ago. IT is 100% VB owned you dim whits !!!
And there lies the truth. I dont think anyone at VA is a bad person themselves etc, HOWEVER you all knew the terms and conditions when you joined, before you signed the contract. Cant whinge now. Don't be surprised when you are Fo's on the EMB in 5 years to get your TIME UP! with the promise of getting back to 777 asap.
PS the currently full flights are only because the MEL flights were cancelled for OCT and are now be rerouted to existing flights ex SYD and BNE.
Last edited by PammyAnderson; 16th Sep 2009 at 22:41.
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Gee Pammy, you're a beacon of light aren't you.
I know it's a bit tired, but you need to have a look at the guys who joined VB before you, started a successful airline and then fought for the conditions you now enjoy. I'm guessing you're not one of them.
I know it's a bit tired, but you need to have a look at the guys who joined VB before you, started a successful airline and then fought for the conditions you now enjoy. I'm guessing you're not one of them.
Vorsicht
I think Pammy has covered most aspects VERY well.
I tried to find a thread that started when V Aus was about to start up without success as I think it has fallen off the radar. Try to find it as it would be great reading.
(Found it)
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...ml#post4877285
In it you would find the starry eyed enthusiasm of youth just tapping their toes waiting for the 777 Command to be thrust upon them.
No one could tell them what real life is about to!
Oh! the overnights, the great cabin crew, the wonderful destination, the great time in LA 'scooting about' , the inability of V to fly them anywhere near their 1000 hour limit, the great crew rest and THE 777.
Economic reality has set in and it is not what they expected...but they were told!
You are correct the VB conditions did improve and $250K+ is not unheard of for a 737 Captain but it took a lot of resignations (mostly to the desert) and a whole lot of aircraft sitting on the ground without willing pilots to fly said aircraft to get to where we are today.
I struggle to see at this stage how the VAus pilot group will achieve the same improvements in a reasonable period of time.
Even allowing for some degree of cohesion amongst the pilot group (doubtful - as we now have the AFAP being challenged by VIPA,AIPA and an in-house VAus pilot association -what hope have they got!) the international job market has flattened considerably. The overseas jobs that enabled VB pilots to resign and create the industrial pressure on VB management are simply not available.
I wish them luck.
Unless you know Pammy 'intimately' then I would suggest that you stop 'guessing' anything as a lot of VB crew worked very hard to get where we are today.
I think Pammy has covered most aspects VERY well.
I tried to find a thread that started when V Aus was about to start up without success as I think it has fallen off the radar. Try to find it as it would be great reading.
(Found it)
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...ml#post4877285
In it you would find the starry eyed enthusiasm of youth just tapping their toes waiting for the 777 Command to be thrust upon them.
No one could tell them what real life is about to!
Oh! the overnights, the great cabin crew, the wonderful destination, the great time in LA 'scooting about' , the inability of V to fly them anywhere near their 1000 hour limit, the great crew rest and THE 777.
Economic reality has set in and it is not what they expected...but they were told!
You are correct the VB conditions did improve and $250K+ is not unheard of for a 737 Captain but it took a lot of resignations (mostly to the desert) and a whole lot of aircraft sitting on the ground without willing pilots to fly said aircraft to get to where we are today.
I struggle to see at this stage how the VAus pilot group will achieve the same improvements in a reasonable period of time.
Even allowing for some degree of cohesion amongst the pilot group (doubtful - as we now have the AFAP being challenged by VIPA,AIPA and an in-house VAus pilot association -what hope have they got!) the international job market has flattened considerably. The overseas jobs that enabled VB pilots to resign and create the industrial pressure on VB management are simply not available.
I wish them luck.
Unless you know Pammy 'intimately' then I would suggest that you stop 'guessing' anything as a lot of VB crew worked very hard to get where we are today.
Last edited by ad-astra; 16th Sep 2009 at 22:41.
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Alot of hoo haa on this thread about V Australia, dont believe they are in EBA negotiations so lets get back on topic to CC GC and Engineers who are in EBA negotiations
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Actually I don't think they have an EBA at all at VAUS as they voted the one and only one down so perhaps we can add them to the list of workgroups without a valid EBA.
My understanding is they all have contracts that they signed but they voted down a joint FC and CC agreement which was probably always going to go that way.
Time for a new genius in the HR department me thinks. Sabotage is a word that springs to mind.
Perhaps we will all be in limbo until the new CEO takes over next year.
In the mean time "the people who love their jobs" will keep the smiles up in the cabin, complain to any who will listen and will post nasty comments on the various websites, blogs, social apps out there.
All of which can't be good for business.
My understanding is they all have contracts that they signed but they voted down a joint FC and CC agreement which was probably always going to go that way.
Time for a new genius in the HR department me thinks. Sabotage is a word that springs to mind.
Perhaps we will all be in limbo until the new CEO takes over next year.
In the mean time "the people who love their jobs" will keep the smiles up in the cabin, complain to any who will listen and will post nasty comments on the various websites, blogs, social apps out there.
All of which can't be good for business.
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I may be a bit confused, which is not unusual, but can someone explain
After all if VB pilots taught VA management a lesson and didn't come to VA, then there would be promotional prospects for VA pilots and a lever to improve conditions for all at VA.
Obviously there are some very junior CRFOs and at least 1 very junior FO and something will need to be done for them. Lufthansa, BA, SA, BA, QF et al all employ cadets so having 10K of heavy jet prior to joining is not the only path
wirgin blew I hope I haven't been nasty, just conversing with my fellow professional.
Given that there is no longer an oversupply of pilots at VB (if there ever was),
VB has dropped capacity by more than the market drop and has had a significant rise in LF (although a reduction in yield),
That there is a general opinion that the market will improve over the next 12 months and that there appears to be a reasonable number of upgrades within VB over the next 12 months due to attrition (so no further contraction of pilot requirements).
Why there is such a push for VA CRFOs and FO to go to VB to get experience (that a large portion don't require) for an upgrade to make way for VB pilots in VA? After all general consensus in this thread is that under the current T &Cs VA is not worth the effort.VB has dropped capacity by more than the market drop and has had a significant rise in LF (although a reduction in yield),
That there is a general opinion that the market will improve over the next 12 months and that there appears to be a reasonable number of upgrades within VB over the next 12 months due to attrition (so no further contraction of pilot requirements).
After all if VB pilots taught VA management a lesson and didn't come to VA, then there would be promotional prospects for VA pilots and a lever to improve conditions for all at VA.
Obviously there are some very junior CRFOs and at least 1 very junior FO and something will need to be done for them. Lufthansa, BA, SA, BA, QF et al all employ cadets so having 10K of heavy jet prior to joining is not the only path
wirgin blew I hope I haven't been nasty, just conversing with my fellow professional.
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Wirgin Blew - an EBA was presented for us to vote on. The document presented was not 'bargained' it was basically take it or leave it but if you take it your locked in until 2012.
As most people realised the industrial landscape was due to change on 1st July 2009 with the reintroduction of enterprise bargaining. Thankfully the vote was a 95% No.
Hopefully now we can all start negotiating for better conditions.
As most people realised the industrial landscape was due to change on 1st July 2009 with the reintroduction of enterprise bargaining. Thankfully the vote was a 95% No.
Hopefully now we can all start negotiating for better conditions.
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ad-astra
VB pilots just took advantage of favourable market conditions. If you think favourable market conditions are never going to return then you need to go and read a few books every other cyclical industry in the world. The challenge is to try and have the EBA negotiations coincide with the favourable market conditions. VB pilots hit the jackpot last time, only time will tell if it will happen again. One thing is certain, the pilot shortage that all too briefly finally arrived, will come again, but next time it will be worse.
If you think VA and VB F/O's aren't going to start resigning again in droves sometime in the future then you do not understand human nature. There will always be another Emirates or Cathay enticing frustrated and ambitious pilots to far parts of the earth in search of the elusive big jet command and bucket of gold. Human nature and the 'grass is greener' syndrome will always make it so. Next time i would guess it will probably somewhere in China.
So if once again the market turns in our favour and the timing is right, then conditions will probably improve, regardless of whether it is VIPA or the AFAP negotiating. If the market stays as it is, or gets worse, then conditions will get worse. It is as simple as that.
If you think VA and VB F/O's aren't going to start resigning again in droves sometime in the future then you do not understand human nature. There will always be another Emirates or Cathay enticing frustrated and ambitious pilots to far parts of the earth in search of the elusive big jet command and bucket of gold. Human nature and the 'grass is greener' syndrome will always make it so. Next time i would guess it will probably somewhere in China.
So if once again the market turns in our favour and the timing is right, then conditions will probably improve, regardless of whether it is VIPA or the AFAP negotiating. If the market stays as it is, or gets worse, then conditions will get worse. It is as simple as that.
Vorsicht
How does
"I struggle to see at this stage how the VAus pilot group will achieve the same improvements in a reasonable period of time."
Become
"If you think favourable market conditions are never going to return then you need to go and read a few books every other cyclical industry in the world"
And
"If you think VA and VB F/O's aren't going to start resigning again in droves sometime in the future then you do not understand human nature."
Whew!
We are in agreement in the following
"So if once again the market turns in our favour and the timing is right, then conditions will probably improve, regardless of whether it is VIPA or the AFAP negotiating. If the market stays as it is, or gets worse, then conditions will get worse. It is as simple as that."
Lots of 'you' in your posts......!
Play the ball not the man.......!
How does
"I struggle to see at this stage how the VAus pilot group will achieve the same improvements in a reasonable period of time."
Become
"If you think favourable market conditions are never going to return then you need to go and read a few books every other cyclical industry in the world"
And
"If you think VA and VB F/O's aren't going to start resigning again in droves sometime in the future then you do not understand human nature."
Whew!
We are in agreement in the following
"So if once again the market turns in our favour and the timing is right, then conditions will probably improve, regardless of whether it is VIPA or the AFAP negotiating. If the market stays as it is, or gets worse, then conditions will get worse. It is as simple as that."
Lots of 'you' in your posts......!
Play the ball not the man.......!
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Bit touchy dude, all that those bold words. What does it all mean?
The implications in your posts were clear. I was just pointing out,yet again, that VA guys are only doing what their VB brethren did before them, and copping much of the same heat from the usual suspects in the peanut gallery.
I find it amusing to the max, having watched the VB startup from the sidelines, and read the comments then of what a bunch of losers VB pilots were to accept such poor conditions and generally undermine the noble profession of aviation in Australia. Now we have (some) VB guys assuming the moral high ground and pointing the finger at VA guys with the usual 'told you so' or 'not our fault if you didn't listen', whilst staking their claim to 777 slots, should they decide to lower themselves far enough to accept such a lowly position, or if in the unlikely event that the company eventually raises the conditions to a level that is worthy of their esteemed service.
One things for sure, it'll all work out in the wash.
The implications in your posts were clear. I was just pointing out,yet again, that VA guys are only doing what their VB brethren did before them, and copping much of the same heat from the usual suspects in the peanut gallery.
I find it amusing to the max, having watched the VB startup from the sidelines, and read the comments then of what a bunch of losers VB pilots were to accept such poor conditions and generally undermine the noble profession of aviation in Australia. Now we have (some) VB guys assuming the moral high ground and pointing the finger at VA guys with the usual 'told you so' or 'not our fault if you didn't listen', whilst staking their claim to 777 slots, should they decide to lower themselves far enough to accept such a lowly position, or if in the unlikely event that the company eventually raises the conditions to a level that is worthy of their esteemed service.
One things for sure, it'll all work out in the wash.
