Merged: ASA Staff Shortage
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ER_BN Does any AUS ATC maybe have a sinking feeling that we won the battle but lost the war??
we lose the war every goddamn time there is an EBA eg:
9/11.
Ansett Collapse
SARS
and now the GFC.
there's always a reason why the sky is falling and why we should take what's offered without upsetting the "fragile" industry.
Does anyone really beleive that AsA will use the breathing space afforded by a temporary downturn in aviation activity to bolster ATC numbers? Here we are, 1/3rd of the way through 2009 - how many of the "100 trainees per year" have we seen in the field?
Just Unlucky
UV,
We could all get a victim complex if we were that paranoid...
I'm thinking Civil Air is the Greg Norman of the Union movement??
As for staff numbers me thinks the managers will assume the reducing traffic numbers and new technology will save them from the outcome of the ATC training debacle??
Funny thing about new technology, even when it works it usually requires excellent training to achieve all the benefits??
Whoops!
We could all get a victim complex if we were that paranoid...
I'm thinking Civil Air is the Greg Norman of the Union movement??
As for staff numbers me thinks the managers will assume the reducing traffic numbers and new technology will save them from the outcome of the ATC training debacle??
Funny thing about new technology, even when it works it usually requires excellent training to achieve all the benefits??
Whoops!
Minister has apparently signed off on the deal today.
The word is that there will be some very significant increases in remuneration in the areas that really needed them to retain people - think regional areas, GAAP and also the lower ends of the payscales.
I would say in normal circumstances it would be a good deal overall - in the current breathless commentary of gloom and doom, it is probably an excellent outcome. Have no doubt - there will be questions about it's 'perceived' generosity from political and ignorant quarters.
For those already on the top experience pay levels, it is nothing special.
Well done and well played Civil Air.
(One other thing - this agreement when ratified will not solve the staffing problems. Something else will have to now be blamed. Got it yet Sen. McGuaran?)
The word is that there will be some very significant increases in remuneration in the areas that really needed them to retain people - think regional areas, GAAP and also the lower ends of the payscales.
I would say in normal circumstances it would be a good deal overall - in the current breathless commentary of gloom and doom, it is probably an excellent outcome. Have no doubt - there will be questions about it's 'perceived' generosity from political and ignorant quarters.
For those already on the top experience pay levels, it is nothing special.
Well done and well played Civil Air.
(One other thing - this agreement when ratified will not solve the staffing problems. Something else will have to now be blamed. Got it yet Sen. McGuaran?)
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There is no doubt the current offer is a good deal... but one must ask why the turnaround? I know I am probably in that paranoid category... but come on... they spend millions of dollars on a team of "experts" to negotiate the CA only for TFN and the union to come up with a deal at the last minute... months overdue... achieving nothing that Airservices was after... but no one gets the sack???!!
WTF???
All I can say is that TFN may not be an astute CEO but he seems to be well versed in kissing someones behind.
As for the staffing shortages... yes they shall continue - but with Civil Air playing nice and no one drawing attention to the issue at least Airservices should be able to achieve some "productivity improvement" by sacking some of the Public Affairs team.
WTF???
All I can say is that TFN may not be an astute CEO but he seems to be well versed in kissing someones behind.
As for the staffing shortages... yes they shall continue - but with Civil Air playing nice and no one drawing attention to the issue at least Airservices should be able to achieve some "productivity improvement" by sacking some of the Public Affairs team.
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I think it is better than TFN had in mind at the start of this... do you really think that it is a bad deal?
I don't know... I guess I am a bit over the CA... what I want is some real solutions for some of the problems instead of all of the diversions. The real problems (in my opinion) are the F*'%wits that are running the place. The minister is not likely to sack people in the middle of the CA but I am holding out on a glimmer of hope that they will be sacked once it is done and dusted.
Surely someone must be waking up to TFN & co's crap? The CA was a stuff up... just to think that we got an email at the beginning from TFN saying that this time would be different and all the other CA processes were crap... well done TFN! You have managed to elevate this process to a whole new level of crapness. Then we get his rubish about the shortages being fixed in August... whoopsies again. Was it JH or CF that fed you that rubbish? Then the Training "Academy" fails minimum standards in an audit... ah well... it doesn't really matter if you have TRAINED ATCs does it? As long as the numbers are there for you to quote at Senate Estimates.... and then, after all of that time and all of those people working on the CA for a year... TFN has to roll up his sleaves and do it himself.
But it is OK people... now that TFN has an "excellent" relationship with the minister we will have everything swept under the rug. Well done team... maybe Caroline Flemmming can put together a nice little PowerPoint number to tell us all how much better off we are...
So in terms of the CA package... it's better than we have had under the past CAs. Last CA we had a 4% flat increase per year... this one we get more than that plus somepeople will get a bump into the new structure. At the end of the day the CA team have achieved nothing but waste everyone's time and S*%t people off and if they had pulled their heads out of their rears last year we would have had this result before christmas.
I don't know... I guess I am a bit over the CA... what I want is some real solutions for some of the problems instead of all of the diversions. The real problems (in my opinion) are the F*'%wits that are running the place. The minister is not likely to sack people in the middle of the CA but I am holding out on a glimmer of hope that they will be sacked once it is done and dusted.
Surely someone must be waking up to TFN & co's crap? The CA was a stuff up... just to think that we got an email at the beginning from TFN saying that this time would be different and all the other CA processes were crap... well done TFN! You have managed to elevate this process to a whole new level of crapness. Then we get his rubish about the shortages being fixed in August... whoopsies again. Was it JH or CF that fed you that rubbish? Then the Training "Academy" fails minimum standards in an audit... ah well... it doesn't really matter if you have TRAINED ATCs does it? As long as the numbers are there for you to quote at Senate Estimates.... and then, after all of that time and all of those people working on the CA for a year... TFN has to roll up his sleaves and do it himself.
But it is OK people... now that TFN has an "excellent" relationship with the minister we will have everything swept under the rug. Well done team... maybe Caroline Flemmming can put together a nice little PowerPoint number to tell us all how much better off we are...
So in terms of the CA package... it's better than we have had under the past CAs. Last CA we had a 4% flat increase per year... this one we get more than that plus somepeople will get a bump into the new structure. At the end of the day the CA team have achieved nothing but waste everyone's time and S*%t people off and if they had pulled their heads out of their rears last year we would have had this result before christmas.
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August 168th today and counting
everyonefedup,
Whilst I agree with some of the sentiment, the fact is that the Civil Air negotiators have done a fantastic job in an implacably hostile industrial climate. A deal last year would only have happened if one of the parties had caved in. The perseverance of Civil Air is written in the final document. Airservices only had to stall to be winning in delayed salary increases.
Such is the legacy of Workchoices and it hasn't changed enough by a long way.
The next question is when are Airservices going to address the operational viability of the system? The "Learning Academy" simply isn't cutting even to CASA's auditing against Airservices own standards and we're still short of people before we even start looking at ambitious think tank stuff.
DNC
Whilst I agree with some of the sentiment, the fact is that the Civil Air negotiators have done a fantastic job in an implacably hostile industrial climate. A deal last year would only have happened if one of the parties had caved in. The perseverance of Civil Air is written in the final document. Airservices only had to stall to be winning in delayed salary increases.
Such is the legacy of Workchoices and it hasn't changed enough by a long way.
The next question is when are Airservices going to address the operational viability of the system? The "Learning Academy" simply isn't cutting even to CASA's auditing against Airservices own standards and we're still short of people before we even start looking at ambitious think tank stuff.
DNC
DNC rightly returns this thread to it's topic. The CA is pretty much done now - some good increases in Salary & Cond's where Civil Air argued successfully they are needed the most - entry & intermediate level to recruit and retain people.
But this does not, and will not, solve the immense staffing problems anytime soon.
And the phoney excuse of blaming controllers for a non-existent industrial campaign by a few bonus driven executives, and some complicit and ignorant political ideologues has just dissappeared. But the airspace closures have not, and will not for some time.
Perhaps the management of QF, VB etc. who seemed to have played along with the charade will now be asking why the SY PRM shifts still can not be staffed, and why the consequent cumulative delays during periods of low cloud and vis? Why the ground delays for sectors that can not fully staff their positions in the middle of the day? Why the promises of full staffing by Aug 08 have not happened? Will we see Sen McGuaran now lambasting those who are really to blame they way he threw punches at the Air Traffic Controllers from behind the protected comfy seats of Senate Estimates?
But this does not, and will not, solve the immense staffing problems anytime soon.
And the phoney excuse of blaming controllers for a non-existent industrial campaign by a few bonus driven executives, and some complicit and ignorant political ideologues has just dissappeared. But the airspace closures have not, and will not for some time.
Perhaps the management of QF, VB etc. who seemed to have played along with the charade will now be asking why the SY PRM shifts still can not be staffed, and why the consequent cumulative delays during periods of low cloud and vis? Why the ground delays for sectors that can not fully staff their positions in the middle of the day? Why the promises of full staffing by Aug 08 have not happened? Will we see Sen McGuaran now lambasting those who are really to blame they way he threw punches at the Air Traffic Controllers from behind the protected comfy seats of Senate Estimates?
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One thing I was disappointed with in this new CA is the still woefully low salary trainees at the 'Learning Place' get. If they want to attract the people they say they want - smart, mature and life-experienced - they will have to lift their game. I know that the Civilair position on this in the log of claims was a big increase to the trainee wage for that very reason. Pity it didn't agreed upon.
Cheers,
NFR.
Cheers,
NFR.
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fedup
I would love to know how the Civil Air negotiating team could have achieved this result last year. That is a pipe dream !!!!!!
The opposition only started negotiating in 2009 WHEN THEY GOT A KICK UP THE DERIERRE from the Minister and a 95% yes vote for Industrial action.
At the end of the day the CA team have achieved nothing but waste everyone's time and S*%t people off and if they had pulled their heads out of their rears last year we would have had this result before christmas.
The opposition only started negotiating in 2009 WHEN THEY GOT A KICK UP THE DERIERRE from the Minister and a 95% yes vote for Industrial action.
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No Further Requirements,
Asked for and refused apparently. "The number of applicants is sufficient to Airservices' needs and there is no evidence that increasing the salary will improve the quality." anonymous SDL in BN
DNC
Asked for and refused apparently. "The number of applicants is sufficient to Airservices' needs and there is no evidence that increasing the salary will improve the quality." anonymous SDL in BN
Pay peanuts - get monkeys
fedup
I trust this is directed at the ASA CA "Negotiating" Team (CANT).
At the end of the day the CA team have achieved nothing but waste everyone's time and S*%t people off and if they had pulled their heads out of their rears last year we would have had this result before christmas.
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Don't sweat it Missy, I think he's on the beam.
Congratulations to the reps and members. Us outsiders who care don't know the outcome in full, but you've done yourselves proud through your reststraint, fortitude and professionalism. And that is a very sincere comment.
I don't know that you've got all you wanted, but the tenor of these posts seems to indicate that your reps didn't bend over and represented the members in a difficult environment.
As the Stones once said..'You don't always get what you waaant, but if you try sometimes, you get what you neeed!'
Congratulations to the reps and members. Us outsiders who care don't know the outcome in full, but you've done yourselves proud through your reststraint, fortitude and professionalism. And that is a very sincere comment.
I don't know that you've got all you wanted, but the tenor of these posts seems to indicate that your reps didn't bend over and represented the members in a difficult environment.
As the Stones once said..'You don't always get what you waaant, but if you try sometimes, you get what you neeed!'
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Congratulations to civilair and its members who have shown unity and restraint throughout the campaign.
As for the result I think it is being slightly undersold. With the flatter structure there are some VERY significant increases for a lot of levels.
I stand to be corrected on this but as I read it the structure transition in conjunction with the annual increases + annual level advances (gained by work performance to a satisfactory level) equates to increases of 30%+ over 3.5 years (depending on your present level of course) which is an extremely good result.
As for the result I think it is being slightly undersold. With the flatter structure there are some VERY significant increases for a lot of levels.
I stand to be corrected on this but as I read it the structure transition in conjunction with the annual increases + annual level advances (gained by work performance to a satisfactory level) equates to increases of 30%+ over 3.5 years (depending on your present level of course) which is an extremely good result.
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Sorry for the confusion people - my comments were directed at the ASA negotiating team. Like I said in my post... there is no doubt (in my mind at least) that the result that we have now is a good one and I think that Civil Air has done a great job in being professional. I guess I am just annoyed that ASA dragged its feet for so long, abused ATCs in the media, made promises that they haven't kept (August promise) and still they will continue to get their bonuses and awards.
The staffing shortage is going to get worse - with the training college is disarray we will be in a very bad place in a years time. I just wish that the Exec & Board would stand up and start taking some accountability.
The staffing shortage is going to get worse - with the training college is disarray we will be in a very bad place in a years time. I just wish that the Exec & Board would stand up and start taking some accountability.
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where is wellconcerned now?? Ha? Ha?
on another note the staffing crisis is still going on, i'm on my 8th shift in a row today, then a 10 hour turnaround as I have to come in early tommorow to fill another gap.
on another note the staffing crisis is still going on, i'm on my 8th shift in a row today, then a 10 hour turnaround as I have to come in early tommorow to fill another gap.
I stand to be corrected on this but as I read it the structure transition in conjunction with the annual increases + annual level advances (gained by work performance to a satisfactory level) equates to increases of 30%+ over 3.5 years (depending on your present level of course) which is an extremely good result.
It is apparent to see now why the detail was kept 'in house' until approved. The right wing idiots would have screamed aloud and created these as 'headline' figures - without knowing the details and the facts. (Think McGuaran, assisted by his mates trolling here who can't get over the fact they are no longer in government)
For those at the top of the seniority, it is a nothing as spectacular - but Civil Air is an association - not a bunch of individuals clambering for an AWA based on non-existent untested productivity claims. (The strength of these remaining AWA contracts will become apparent in time)
The Acid test now is on the Executive to stem the airspace closures, service reductions etc. and to help the airlines stop bleeding money through delays. Who will call them to account?
In the phoney war of spin throughout the CA process, the appeal has been to 'think about' & 'help out' our customers - the best help they could get right now would be a fully staffed, fully delivered service.
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Well, well, well.
A couple of controllers get a massively disproportionate rise from the EBA and you all go around like headless chooks patting yourselves and your incompetent negotiating team on the back!
The truth is, as I indicated previously, that the vast majority of controllers have been given a payrise that is way less than the cost of living when adjusted for the amount of time it's taken to negotiate the EBA - and the amount of time that has elapsed since the last EBA expired.
One can only assume that your next EBA negotiation will be managed just as badly - so in fact you will have achieved an average amortised pay rise of around 2.6 or 2.7 per cent per annum - WELL DONE - not!
Management at Airservices must be rolling on the floor with laughter at the fact that they got away with paying you less through negotiation than they might have been prepared to give you if you didn't bother negotiating! And not having to pay any rise for a year and a half since expiry of the last EBA is money in the bank for them. Watch who gets a big fat bonus for engineering that outcome - got to be worth 10-15% performance pay for at least 5 or 6 managers!
Well done to CivilAir's negotiating team - I don't think so. If I was one of the very few that got a good outcome I would become a life member of the union - and pay my fees for the next 20 years up front. But if I was one of the vast majority who have been screwed by this EBA - I would resign from the union, and use the fees to supplement my 'less than CPI' rise.
Go on - throw some spleen back at me - but look carefully at what you have accepted and say it isn't so that you've effectievly gone backwards.
A couple of controllers get a massively disproportionate rise from the EBA and you all go around like headless chooks patting yourselves and your incompetent negotiating team on the back!
The truth is, as I indicated previously, that the vast majority of controllers have been given a payrise that is way less than the cost of living when adjusted for the amount of time it's taken to negotiate the EBA - and the amount of time that has elapsed since the last EBA expired.
One can only assume that your next EBA negotiation will be managed just as badly - so in fact you will have achieved an average amortised pay rise of around 2.6 or 2.7 per cent per annum - WELL DONE - not!
Management at Airservices must be rolling on the floor with laughter at the fact that they got away with paying you less through negotiation than they might have been prepared to give you if you didn't bother negotiating! And not having to pay any rise for a year and a half since expiry of the last EBA is money in the bank for them. Watch who gets a big fat bonus for engineering that outcome - got to be worth 10-15% performance pay for at least 5 or 6 managers!
Well done to CivilAir's negotiating team - I don't think so. If I was one of the very few that got a good outcome I would become a life member of the union - and pay my fees for the next 20 years up front. But if I was one of the vast majority who have been screwed by this EBA - I would resign from the union, and use the fees to supplement my 'less than CPI' rise.
Go on - throw some spleen back at me - but look carefully at what you have accepted and say it isn't so that you've effectievly gone backwards.