Merged: ASA Staff Shortage
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Always changing
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blocka or someone else
Maybe you can answer what UndervaluedATC could only manage a poor excuse for.
If staff shortage is still the real problem why then has the Civil website airspace closure/staff shortage section been 1) removed from the front page of the website and 2) not updated for a month?
Is it just coincidence that the updates stopped and the front page changed around the time that Civilair and Airservices reached a deal on the Certified Agreement or was part of the deal to stop publicly exposing the problem.
If staff shortages are the real problem still, surely there is no harm in consistently exposing the flawed system - especially when the overwhelming opinion is that it will not get better quickly. Or was it just a tool to help in Certified Agreement negotiations only?
Maybe you can answer what UndervaluedATC could only manage a poor excuse for.
If staff shortage is still the real problem why then has the Civil website airspace closure/staff shortage section been 1) removed from the front page of the website and 2) not updated for a month?
Is it just coincidence that the updates stopped and the front page changed around the time that Civilair and Airservices reached a deal on the Certified Agreement or was part of the deal to stop publicly exposing the problem.
If staff shortages are the real problem still, surely there is no harm in consistently exposing the flawed system - especially when the overwhelming opinion is that it will not get better quickly. Or was it just a tool to help in Certified Agreement negotiations only?
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Melbourne
Age: 61
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The firefighters have voted their agreement up - 82% of the 81% who voted said yes... not that suprising since they got just about everything they wanted out of ASA.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Here
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Baileys,
You have a valid perspective but I don't think it's anything more than a reorganisation of the website. There are volunteers acting in temporary roles who, for many reasons, have not had the time at the moment to update and maintain the content on the page. It's nothing sinister, just give it time and you will hopefully see the important issues on there again. If you are a Civil Air member, why not ask your delegate or post on the member's forum to see what's happening?
The Certified Agreement process (including the PIA vote) over the last few months has taken up a huge amount of time for delegates and volunteers due to the need to communicate with Civil Air members and keep them updated on progress.
Everybody knows that the staff shortage is causing massive problems within ASA, but Civil Air only has limited resources to deal with this, ASA management tactics, the daily running of the Association and the Certified Agreement. The timing of all this may not look good (as I said, your sentiments are valid), but if/when the CA is finalised you should see resources currently being intensively expended on the industrial front being put back into the professional issues that Civil Air as the ATC Association has a major role in addressing.
Once the CA is signed, no-one truly believes that the staffing crisis will go away.
You have a valid perspective but I don't think it's anything more than a reorganisation of the website. There are volunteers acting in temporary roles who, for many reasons, have not had the time at the moment to update and maintain the content on the page. It's nothing sinister, just give it time and you will hopefully see the important issues on there again. If you are a Civil Air member, why not ask your delegate or post on the member's forum to see what's happening?
The Certified Agreement process (including the PIA vote) over the last few months has taken up a huge amount of time for delegates and volunteers due to the need to communicate with Civil Air members and keep them updated on progress.
Everybody knows that the staff shortage is causing massive problems within ASA, but Civil Air only has limited resources to deal with this, ASA management tactics, the daily running of the Association and the Certified Agreement. The timing of all this may not look good (as I said, your sentiments are valid), but if/when the CA is finalised you should see resources currently being intensively expended on the industrial front being put back into the professional issues that Civil Air as the ATC Association has a major role in addressing.
Once the CA is signed, no-one truly believes that the staffing crisis will go away.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Always changing
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like you say, regardless of the reason, the timing is bad and it looks really bad. Don't think I'm the only one who has noticed. I'm just the only one who has mentioned it here. It would be nice to see it all back up and running and highlighting the real problems.
Here to Help is on the money, from what I know.
Civil Air will hopefully now have more time and resources to devote to getting those who can make a difference and get answers (politicians, airlines, journalists(?)) from those promising 'staffing will be fixed by xxx' and also claiming that the staff shortages were some kind of industrial campaign.
The wool can be pulled over the eyes for only so long - surely?
Civil Air will hopefully now have more time and resources to devote to getting those who can make a difference and get answers (politicians, airlines, journalists(?)) from those promising 'staffing will be fixed by xxx' and also claiming that the staff shortages were some kind of industrial campaign.
The wool can be pulled over the eyes for only so long - surely?
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Downunda
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Baileys,
As Here to Help pointed out, the Civil Air Website is run by a collection of volunteers. The amount of traffic through the site, and especially the forums, over the last 6 months has been unprecedented. Those people are now taking a well earned breather.
Additionally, Civil Air's VP - Communication, the person ultimately responsible for the success of the website, is stepping down at the end of this month after acting in the position for the previous 4 years. I know the new VP - Communication has some ideas about leveraging the current popularity of the website to raise the level of engagement of Civil Air Members, the profession generally and other interested parties (including yourself) to a new level. Please bookmark the Civil Air Website and check back from time to time (this applies to all with an interest in ATC - http://www.civilair.asn.au).
Rest assured, the issue of ATC shortages is ongoing. The website is only one tool we have to bring attention to this. Ultimately, we have to use all the tools at our disposal to firstly identify an effective way of addressing the shortage and then, perhaps the harder task, to convince our employers to accept that Civil Air, as a professional body with a vast amount of experience, is capable of making a valuable and relevant contribution.
I might also remind people generally that those acting on behalf of Civil Air to improve ATC in Australia are, unlike ASA management, doing so in there own time with no financial reward. It is hard to believe this employer, ASA, is not champing at the bit to embrace this level of commitment from its employees. Unfortunately, in my limited experience, ASA remains largely dismissive of Civil Air's efforts. This despite the fact that by the simplest measure, the ability to provide an uninterrupted ATC service to the Australian public, the current management has failed like no other ATC provider in Australian aviation history. A simple, stark fact that no amount of spin can avoid.
However, I am an optimist at heart and I believe there are a few in positions of influence, or on the fringes, that may give us some hope into the future. We shall see.
As Here to Help pointed out, the Civil Air Website is run by a collection of volunteers. The amount of traffic through the site, and especially the forums, over the last 6 months has been unprecedented. Those people are now taking a well earned breather.
Additionally, Civil Air's VP - Communication, the person ultimately responsible for the success of the website, is stepping down at the end of this month after acting in the position for the previous 4 years. I know the new VP - Communication has some ideas about leveraging the current popularity of the website to raise the level of engagement of Civil Air Members, the profession generally and other interested parties (including yourself) to a new level. Please bookmark the Civil Air Website and check back from time to time (this applies to all with an interest in ATC - http://www.civilair.asn.au).
Rest assured, the issue of ATC shortages is ongoing. The website is only one tool we have to bring attention to this. Ultimately, we have to use all the tools at our disposal to firstly identify an effective way of addressing the shortage and then, perhaps the harder task, to convince our employers to accept that Civil Air, as a professional body with a vast amount of experience, is capable of making a valuable and relevant contribution.
I might also remind people generally that those acting on behalf of Civil Air to improve ATC in Australia are, unlike ASA management, doing so in there own time with no financial reward. It is hard to believe this employer, ASA, is not champing at the bit to embrace this level of commitment from its employees. Unfortunately, in my limited experience, ASA remains largely dismissive of Civil Air's efforts. This despite the fact that by the simplest measure, the ability to provide an uninterrupted ATC service to the Australian public, the current management has failed like no other ATC provider in Australian aviation history. A simple, stark fact that no amount of spin can avoid.
However, I am an optimist at heart and I believe there are a few in positions of influence, or on the fringes, that may give us some hope into the future. We shall see.
Last edited by dabelstein; 23rd Apr 2009 at 01:00. Reason: typo
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Always changing
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the explanations. I'm sure others appreciate it too.
A slightly modified quote...
"People who were driving a school bus blindfolded (and crashed it) should never be given a new bus. The Airservices Management establishment lost it's legitimacy with the failure of the system. It is irresponsible and foolish to put our trust in the ability of such experts to get us out of this mess. Instead, find the smart people whose hands are clean"
and
"Do not let someone making an “incentive” bonus manage a nuclear plant – or your financial risks. Odds are he would cut every corner on safety to show “profits” while claiming to be “conservative”. Bonuses do not accommodate the hidden risks of blow-ups. It is the asymmetry of the bonus system that got us here. No incentives without disincentives: capitalism is about rewards and punishments, not just rewards"
~ Nassim Taleb
A slightly modified quote...
"People who were driving a school bus blindfolded (and crashed it) should never be given a new bus. The Airservices Management establishment lost it's legitimacy with the failure of the system. It is irresponsible and foolish to put our trust in the ability of such experts to get us out of this mess. Instead, find the smart people whose hands are clean"
and
"Do not let someone making an “incentive” bonus manage a nuclear plant – or your financial risks. Odds are he would cut every corner on safety to show “profits” while claiming to be “conservative”. Bonuses do not accommodate the hidden risks of blow-ups. It is the asymmetry of the bonus system that got us here. No incentives without disincentives: capitalism is about rewards and punishments, not just rewards"
~ Nassim Taleb
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: way out west
Age: 77
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For anyone interested:
Emirates Aviation College have closed their ATM Training Section as of 5 days ago. Whilst an ersatz arrangement for the training of ME controllers and managers, its loss (??) will see the local operatives of the region necessarily scouring the world for "already rated controllers" to fill gaps.
Of course, the WFC will have an effect on their needs in the short-term. But when the bubble is sealed and re-inflates, needs will be met by dhirams/dollars/pounds/renmimbi/yuan to acquire "skill".
Hang in there: desert life ain't so bad, I'm told!!
However, an opportunity now arrives for a well equipped training organisation to home in on said "OPPORTUNITY"!!
A qualified organisation would have their lesson plans in order, their instructors at the ready, their simulators at 100% capacity, and their salesfolk on the move to less well organised regions for "recruiting of suitably qualified potential ATCs" for the next 5 years!!
Then there's the ASA Learning Academy!!!
GR
Of course, the WFC will have an effect on their needs in the short-term. But when the bubble is sealed and re-inflates, needs will be met by dhirams/dollars/pounds/renmimbi/yuan to acquire "skill".
Hang in there: desert life ain't so bad, I'm told!!
However, an opportunity now arrives for a well equipped training organisation to home in on said "OPPORTUNITY"!!
A qualified organisation would have their lesson plans in order, their instructors at the ready, their simulators at 100% capacity, and their salesfolk on the move to less well organised regions for "recruiting of suitably qualified potential ATCs" for the next 5 years!!
Then there's the ASA Learning Academy!!!
GR
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: A sand castle
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps this is part of the master plan for attracting and training new staff (even if they may be your grandmothers)
Flight Control lands Melbourne gaming studio a global hit - Articles
Flight Control lands Melbourne gaming studio a global hit - Articles
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Through the gate
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The very proactive team at Airways International NZ will already have a large part of that market covered no doubt
Overseas training was something that ASA "used to do" - but alas no longer it would seem.
Just as well, as one of the recent local conversion courses nearly had to be run from the gents toilets due to lack of a classroom! Fortunately the canteen turned out to be a better option!
SP
Overseas training was something that ASA "used to do" - but alas no longer it would seem.
Just as well, as one of the recent local conversion courses nearly had to be run from the gents toilets due to lack of a classroom! Fortunately the canteen turned out to be a better option!
SP
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UAE
Age: 63
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
plazbot
To be blunt, the **** we are geting in the field shows that the college ( what the fark it is now) is farming out every bum they can. The CSS types are passing many who would normally pass. The hand overs I am getting from trainees and newly rated players take me 20 minues to get over.
Whoever said that it is not their fault is absolutely 100% correct. If they are checked out and working then the "blame" for their lack of knowledge/skills/whatever rests squarely with the controller that checked them out on the position.
As for the CSS thing passing many who would normally pass? NFI what that is about.
Go-rownd...that has been tried many a time in different parts of the world, with varying degrees of disaster.
Australia sent students to Bournemouth/Bath, ME countries have sent them to Bournemouth, Jordan, Qatar, Singapore and New Zealand. Almost without exception, the "bums on seats" mindset is still in evidence...guys that are plainly not suited are sent back with glowing reports, only for us poor bunnies in the field to have to deal with them.
Blockla...why are you on PPrune when you should be drinking?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Learning Academy was recently advertising for "Learning Assistants". I think they are referring to the artists formerly known as ATC Instructors. That should help things along.
Learning assistants is correct... they are there to help the trainee learn. This is of course the trainees responsibility. If there were training assistants then the instructor might be accountable for the training delivered, and we can't have that!! much better for the acquisition of the required knowledge to be entirly the trainee's responsibility. 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UAE
Age: 63
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TT
Hey TT,
I have ten thumbs...all opposing.
Anyway the instructors (a rose by any other name) should be "facilitators" surely??
I'm off to bed...just finished the last night shift and now have 3.5 days off...no call ins naturally...cause I didn't put down for them this weekend
I have ten thumbs...all opposing.
Anyway the instructors (a rose by any other name) should be "facilitators" surely??
I'm off to bed...just finished the last night shift and now have 3.5 days off...no call ins naturally...cause I didn't put down for them this weekend
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Mae Sai
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not so fast with those rocks there, dd.
Australia only sent two courses of twelve to Bath. Of those, I understand 11/12 and 10/12 checked out upon return. Seems to be somewhat higher than the locally trained pass rate? Speaking for Sydney, we got six of the twenty-four and all of them checked out and have proved themselves to be competent or better. Perhaps you are suggesting that this happy result was just a function of our exceptional OJTI?
Australia only sent two courses of twelve to Bath. Of those, I understand 11/12 and 10/12 checked out upon return. Seems to be somewhat higher than the locally trained pass rate? Speaking for Sydney, we got six of the twenty-four and all of them checked out and have proved themselves to be competent or better. Perhaps you are suggesting that this happy result was just a function of our exceptional OJTI?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UAE
Age: 63
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adamastor
A fairly skilled rock thrower I am...
I vividly remember the master race when they arrived back in Oz after their "AsA World Tour" as their course t-shirt went.
Although I thought that there were 50 of them, and almost all crashed and burned on first contact...then they were sent for re-education and then about 25 or so passed?
If incorrect I stand humbly apologetic...although I still remember the tw@t that came to visit us for a short time on Byron group
It seemed all he learned in Bath was that he already knew more than all the rest of us actually doing the job.
I left shortly thereafter to ply my inadequate skills offshore, that would have been around late 1997.
I vividly remember the master race when they arrived back in Oz after their "AsA World Tour" as their course t-shirt went.
Although I thought that there were 50 of them, and almost all crashed and burned on first contact...then they were sent for re-education and then about 25 or so passed?
If incorrect I stand humbly apologetic...although I still remember the tw@t that came to visit us for a short time on Byron group
It seemed all he learned in Bath was that he already knew more than all the rest of us actually doing the job.I left shortly thereafter to ply my inadequate skills offshore, that would have been around late 1997.
Pardoned PPRuNer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: GlassGumtree
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Me Thinx Mr Stanley does speaketh the truth....
Complete retraining done in the field by (yes exceptional) OJTIs I think was the key to success for the Bath Babes....
TT
asif - 10 opposable thumbs that would make you the missing link..
Complete retraining done in the field by (yes exceptional) OJTIs I think was the key to success for the Bath Babes....
TT
asif - 10 opposable thumbs that would make you the missing link..
Bath TMA1 : all SY trainees checked out, and one in CS checked out.
After a re-streaming course, another 6 of the remaining 7 checked out.
There were only two courses to Bath. TMA2 had similar outcome.
So 'methinx' somebody above is speaking out of their hat.
After a re-streaming course, another 6 of the remaining 7 checked out.
There were only two courses to Bath. TMA2 had similar outcome.
So 'methinx' somebody above is speaking out of their hat.