Merged: ASA Staff Shortage
Pardoned PPRuNer
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BNAPP,
I don't know how many finally checked out - the point is they needed
1) A great deal of retraining
2) A great deal more retraining
This says more about the course they were (weren't?) given than about the people themselves.
Nobody is questioning the people and their abiltity the point is the instruction or lack there of that they were given in the first place is the problem. The course they received in Bath was not fit for purpose and that is a fact.
.....Adjusts hat to left a bit more....
TT
oh and lol at Lestump
I don't know how many finally checked out - the point is they needed
1) A great deal of retraining
2) A great deal more retraining
This says more about the course they were (weren't?) given than about the people themselves.
Nobody is questioning the people and their abiltity the point is the instruction or lack there of that they were given in the first place is the problem. The course they received in Bath was not fit for purpose and that is a fact.
.....Adjusts hat to left a bit more....
TT
oh and lol at Lestump
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Children, children, control yourselves; this is all very interesting - past attempts to outsource etc by the suits. 'Exalted one, I have a clever idea;' 'No, no, I have a more clever idea, giver of corporate credit cards, let me brown nose.' Happens in every endeavour, not just aviation.
The classic that I remember was an ad that appeared in the national daily a number of years ago. Memory is fading, but the essence was that Airservices had a clever idea (to cut costs) and put out an EOI for a 'private provider of ATC training.' Allegedly, and according to this cunning plan of which Black Adder would be proud, students would pay their own way, thus giving the private provider income. Then, according to the need at the time, Airservices would employ the graduates, but not necessarily all of the graduates; only the ones they wanted at the time.
So, hey presto! problem solvered - no need for an expensive, pesky 'Learning Academy' and no need to invest money in training. The students would pay for themselves to gain the privelege of then being considered for employment.
Naturally, this scheme never saw light of day after the ad was published. However, the idiot that thought it up is probably still employed and earning a shed-load more than the people who actually do the job.
Who are these mugs that come up with these ideas and what do they get paid?
It costs the rest of us.
The classic that I remember was an ad that appeared in the national daily a number of years ago. Memory is fading, but the essence was that Airservices had a clever idea (to cut costs) and put out an EOI for a 'private provider of ATC training.' Allegedly, and according to this cunning plan of which Black Adder would be proud, students would pay their own way, thus giving the private provider income. Then, according to the need at the time, Airservices would employ the graduates, but not necessarily all of the graduates; only the ones they wanted at the time.
So, hey presto! problem solvered - no need for an expensive, pesky 'Learning Academy' and no need to invest money in training. The students would pay for themselves to gain the privelege of then being considered for employment.
Naturally, this scheme never saw light of day after the ad was published. However, the idiot that thought it up is probably still employed and earning a shed-load more than the people who actually do the job.
Who are these mugs that come up with these ideas and what do they get paid?
It costs the rest of us.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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I would have to say that the "delivery specialists" are doing the best they can with what they have. Never once during my course did we have any reason to doubt their commitment, professionalism and devotion to our training. What needs to be reviewed however is the training package itself. I was pretty confident as an ATC after leaving the college (i was woefully mistaken!) it wasn't until the 3 or 4th sim run that the penny dropped...... The level of ATC capacity the learning academy gets you to once you are out the door is no-where near adequate. Of those of us that rated out of my course, the step up required was phenomenal.
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dsham, the discrepancy between the academy and the 'field' has always been there unfortunately. It's the difference between generic ATC and airspace specific ATC. Trainees come from the academy under the impression they are 90% there when in reality their training is only about 50% complete - it's just that the second 50% is done in 2 or 3 months not 6. I agree the package needs reviewing though...apparently so do CASA....
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Incoming!!
Can't help myself...
Generic ratings work well here in Ireland. (see my previous posts on this subject about 20 pages back to save the indignant squeals)
The training school in Ireland (still called that here) preps you to about 130% of busiest traffic expected...ergo when you sit in, it's actually easier than the sim. Except for the pilots not listening etc in the real world.
Most of those chopped departed in the sim, not the real world.
Generic ratings work well here in Ireland. (see my previous posts on this subject about 20 pages back to save the indignant squeals)
The training school in Ireland (still called that here) preps you to about 130% of busiest traffic expected...ergo when you sit in, it's actually easier than the sim. Except for the pilots not listening etc in the real world.
Most of those chopped departed in the sim, not the real world.
Pardoned PPRuNer
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Stone Him Stone Him
DD there is no need for that sort of can do attitude here!
There is no way that would work here in Aus....because well we don't do it now so there.....
Can I share the shelter with you?
TT
There is no way that would work here in Aus....because well we don't do it now so there.....
Can I share the shelter with you?
TT
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I won't disagree with the experts, but is the exercise one of comparing apples to apples?
As I understand it, the Irish do an outstanding job in taking care of over-flyers, but do not have the same scenario as here. It seems to me, and no disrespect DD, that generic ratings would work over the North Atlantic, but does the same philosophy apply to terminal control. Could you do Dublin Approach one day and Belfast the next?
Plus, this is a big country. One may be able to memorise all the reporting points etc in a small country, but how does that translate to here? How do our controllers get totally confident with, say STARS, in one part of the country and then be expected to know the goods miles away.
I am from the unwashed, so that may be a dumb-ass question. But I just cannot see how a controller can have a generic qulification for WA that allows him/her to safely separate in FNQ.
Maybe I've got the concept wrong.
As I understand it, the Irish do an outstanding job in taking care of over-flyers, but do not have the same scenario as here. It seems to me, and no disrespect DD, that generic ratings would work over the North Atlantic, but does the same philosophy apply to terminal control. Could you do Dublin Approach one day and Belfast the next?
Plus, this is a big country. One may be able to memorise all the reporting points etc in a small country, but how does that translate to here? How do our controllers get totally confident with, say STARS, in one part of the country and then be expected to know the goods miles away.
I am from the unwashed, so that may be a dumb-ass question. But I just cannot see how a controller can have a generic qulification for WA that allows him/her to safely separate in FNQ.
Maybe I've got the concept wrong.
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I don't see any problem with Diving Duck posting his experiences on this thread what so ever. If anything it exposes the pureness of the topic as he is an ex OZ ATC who if I recall correctly has worked OZ, ME, Canada and now Ireland (not in that order). OZ ATC can't keep those who already have a job here let alone attract appropriate new blood.
I myself won a gig in Canada but the awesomeness that is Australia (real life) saw me knock it back and just go to work to get my pay packet and no more. There are many many like me. Not only is there an issue with those leaving but many who 'back in the day' would be stepping up and progressing the profession/business just don't care anymore. Shame really. Disengaged? Man, I am the Enterprise at warp factor minus 10000.
I myself won a gig in Canada but the awesomeness that is Australia (real life) saw me knock it back and just go to work to get my pay packet and no more. There are many many like me. Not only is there an issue with those leaving but many who 'back in the day' would be stepping up and progressing the profession/business just don't care anymore. Shame really. Disengaged? Man, I am the Enterprise at warp factor minus 10000.
Join Date: May 2002
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TrafficTraffic,
Re- Generic Arrivals Ratings
Have you now read the paper on what is proposed ?
I value your input and am hoping you can constructively input on the 'vision' of generic arrivals ratings in the BN FIR.
Specifically STARs, Restricted Areas, Frequency transfers, and standard level assignments into SY, WLM,Gold Coast ,BN,MCY, TL,CS,DN,etc.
Please stick to what is achievable now, or in the immediate future(seeing we have already transitioned to SDE airspace). Please don't use motherhood statements about future technology, future standardisations, or FUA (flexible usage of airspace) none of which are actually yet in existence.
It seems disingeuous to move people around and then work out there are no tools, no plans and not enough people to do the new job. Fail to plan, plan to fail.
Re- Generic Arrivals Ratings
Have you now read the paper on what is proposed ?
I value your input and am hoping you can constructively input on the 'vision' of generic arrivals ratings in the BN FIR.
Specifically STARs, Restricted Areas, Frequency transfers, and standard level assignments into SY, WLM,Gold Coast ,BN,MCY, TL,CS,DN,etc.
Please stick to what is achievable now, or in the immediate future(seeing we have already transitioned to SDE airspace). Please don't use motherhood statements about future technology, future standardisations, or FUA (flexible usage of airspace) none of which are actually yet in existence.
It seems disingeuous to move people around and then work out there are no tools, no plans and not enough people to do the new job. Fail to plan, plan to fail.
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I know this might be a bit off thread as far as ATC goes however I am applying for a position with Airservices Australia in their facilities management area as a maintenance planner.
Can anyone give me any feedback on that area of ASA?
Can anyone give me any feedback on that area of ASA?
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Hey Nummy,
Forget maintenance - no future. As to 'Maintenance Planning' and 'Airservices Australia' in the same sentence - oxymoron if ever there was one, amigo!!
Try becoming an ATC...
....no, no, better still.....try becoming an ATC instructor!
No, no, no......wait....better still.....apply for a job as an ATC Line Manager!!!!
Much better paid, not too much work, plenty of time to check stocks, fish through E-Bay, write personal e-mails, compose sciolistic messages for pprune....
Tootle Pip!
Forget maintenance - no future. As to 'Maintenance Planning' and 'Airservices Australia' in the same sentence - oxymoron if ever there was one, amigo!!
Try becoming an ATC...
....no, no, better still.....try becoming an ATC instructor!
No, no, no......wait....better still.....apply for a job as an ATC Line Manager!!!!
Much better paid, not too much work, plenty of time to check stocks, fish through E-Bay, write personal e-mails, compose sciolistic messages for pprune....
Tootle Pip!