Merged: ASA Staff Shortage
Join Date: Nov 2000
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To those whinging about the training wage. Suck it up, do u think it is something new? Everyone else went through it too. The long term benefits outweigh the short term pain.
My 2 cents.
My 2 cents.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canberra, Australia
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Not whinging. Just saying that it is probably a factor in the low completion rates of training. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that would make great controllers but they might not be willing to give up their 80K plus salaries to do the training.
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Well I'm just a classroom high school teacher and I get just a little under that. Surely teachers aren't in the 'highly paid' category. I would assume there are public servants, police officers or defence personnel getting these sorts of salaries as well.
I would have thought that the skills and strengths required to successfully control air traffic would have allowed an individual to experience success in another profession beforehand.
I'm just saying that the best people who have the requirements for the job (ATC) are probably already using these skills to earn good money in their current profession. So that would limit the quality of people who apply for training.
I would have thought that the skills and strengths required to successfully control air traffic would have allowed an individual to experience success in another profession beforehand.
I'm just saying that the best people who have the requirements for the job (ATC) are probably already using these skills to earn good money in their current profession. So that would limit the quality of people who apply for training.
Mr Twister has a very good point ....
Why would someone, give up $80k, and around 10 weeks holidays per year, to :
You'd really want to have the need to push tin to take that on.
Most people would rather work to live ... not live to work !
Why would someone, give up $80k, and around 10 weeks holidays per year, to :
- Earn $35k ... with a hope of reaching $120k in many years time
- Go through the stress of 12 months training
- Probably leave his family behind
- Be posted to God know's where
- Work shift work
- Have a fair chance of getting health problems
- Work under a bunch of alleged nincompoops
- Be shattered by bad morale
- Fight for annual leave
- Be called in on most days off
You'd really want to have the need to push tin to take that on.
Most people would rather work to live ... not live to work !
I'm just saying that the best people who have the requirements for the job (ATC) are probably already using these skills to earn good money in their current profession
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I was one of older out of the paper guys on AB3 95-96, in general for that course the older students faired much better than the younger guys. Of the 8 guys that made it to field training in BN; 3 of the 4 of us that rated were over 28 years old.
I'm with peuce, been through the giving up of lucrative job to go to ATC it took nearly 5 years to make up the loss. I went from 70K+ in 1995 to 22K training wage and my 1st year Journeyman salary was only 42K after 18 months training.
Its been fun but its also cost me 2 marriages and a new house
I'm with peuce, been through the giving up of lucrative job to go to ATC it took nearly 5 years to make up the loss. I went from 70K+ in 1995 to 22K training wage and my 1st year Journeyman salary was only 42K after 18 months training.
Its been fun but its also cost me 2 marriages and a new house
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Reference the Learning Academy:
A potential crisis is most definitely looming.
If you are a locally based controller I would recommend that you go and visit and see why your roster cant be improved by some new talent:
Points to Note regardless:
Poor morale amongst staff and some students.
Experienced instructors being paid less than new appointees with less experience
Non field current Instructors being paid less than some "experienced" students!
Too much emphacis on the Process i.e. goal appears to be RTO Compliance and Cost Effective training (save money ) rather than the Task (to create understanding and eventually put licensed bums on seats. E.g. the Academy uses one instructor on two students doing two different tasks simultaneously: DTI and Radar and Approach and Departures and SMC and Tower, rather than one on one as per almost all International ANSP's. Consequently there is no freezing of exercises and very little actual teaching done. So many errors and poor technique go unnoticed and some bad habits are learned and reinforced uncorrected as the Instructor focuses on the weaker student! Exams can be and are sometimes jagged ! In some cases, students worthy of failing - pass and the buck is moved on to the OJTI - hence the high field chop rates.
Sadly the list of inefficiencies goes on and on.
SP
PS: Instructors are no longer Instructors - Now called Delivery Specialists!
A potential crisis is most definitely looming.
If you are a locally based controller I would recommend that you go and visit and see why your roster cant be improved by some new talent:
Points to Note regardless:
Poor morale amongst staff and some students.
Experienced instructors being paid less than new appointees with less experience
Non field current Instructors being paid less than some "experienced" students!
Too much emphacis on the Process i.e. goal appears to be RTO Compliance and Cost Effective training (save money ) rather than the Task (to create understanding and eventually put licensed bums on seats. E.g. the Academy uses one instructor on two students doing two different tasks simultaneously: DTI and Radar and Approach and Departures and SMC and Tower, rather than one on one as per almost all International ANSP's. Consequently there is no freezing of exercises and very little actual teaching done. So many errors and poor technique go unnoticed and some bad habits are learned and reinforced uncorrected as the Instructor focuses on the weaker student! Exams can be and are sometimes jagged ! In some cases, students worthy of failing - pass and the buck is moved on to the OJTI - hence the high field chop rates.
Sadly the list of inefficiencies goes on and on.
SP
PS: Instructors are no longer Instructors - Now called Delivery Specialists!
Last edited by Saliantpoint; 21st Apr 2009 at 11:04. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Jul 2003
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To be blunt, the **** we are geting in the field shows that the college ( what the fark it is now) is farming out every bum they can. The CSS types are passing many who would normally pass. The hand overs I am getting from trainees and newly rated players take me 20 minues to get over.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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tobzalp - i am one of the "****" out of the college - I believe that a rating is a rating, we would not be rated if we DIDNT deserve it.... I don't know about the checkie on your group but mine has a no bull**** approach, you make the grade or you are out...... you were new once too you tool...
that is what is killing this place, sure people out of the college aren't getting the best training, but they are all putting in 100%, we need to encourage them and provide the best support possible.....
that is what is killing this place, sure people out of the college aren't getting the best training, but they are all putting in 100%, we need to encourage them and provide the best support possible.....
Join Date: Oct 2002
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dsham,
I think the complaint isn't about the trainees who do rate; despite the (poor) quality of trainees the 'academy' is turning out into the field checkies wont rate you if you cant do the job. Its the number of trainees that aren't getting rated that is the concern. In the past, these people were weeded out in selection/on course, with a pretty good pass rate OJT. Now it seems it's up to the checkies to weed them out (after an extra 6 months or so of training
).
I think the complaint isn't about the trainees who do rate; despite the (poor) quality of trainees the 'academy' is turning out into the field checkies wont rate you if you cant do the job. Its the number of trainees that aren't getting rated that is the concern. In the past, these people were weeded out in selection/on course, with a pretty good pass rate OJT. Now it seems it's up to the checkies to weed them out (after an extra 6 months or so of training
).
Join Date: Jul 2001
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WC
What a load of bollox having spent some 6 years on the executive I can categorically refute that.
{RANT ON} In my experience the people that get the sh!ts with Civil Air, had a sook about a particular topic and then when either the cause wasn't championed or was rejected by the majority or simply the fight was lost, blamed the union for not winning, like it was the unions fault that they lost, or had no mechanism for change or otherwise were not prepared to spend significant money on an individual cause with little or no benefit to the membership.
There were many people who have left and rejoined etc. for various reasons, but blaming the union for not achieving the goals of everyone is often the easy out; almost always ultimately ASA is responsible for your gripe, not the union; but they are an easier target.
Many things in the CA/EBA etc are not at the unions request, but the employers.
As for an individual achieving a better outcome than the collective, well I'd like to see that; why are non members not going down stairs requesting an individual AWA and not scabbing off the paying members (agreement); because they know what they would get...
{Rant off}
RE: Training, it sounds horrible and it is.
I have many mature friends that would make excellent controllers but have no capacity to surrender their current salaries for an ATC training wage or are prepared to suffer the concept of being sent somewhere else.
Being now August 265 (or something like that), it isn't surprising that things aren't fixed; you need to suffer more pain; ie cut off the leg to keep the patient alive. But the leg will grow back... It is going to hurt.
Some rosters need to be in the short term sacrificed and/or traffic restricted (maybe the GFC downturn naturally helps) to free up human resources to get a)quality trainees, b)more trainees through. Wasting money on new rostering tools to save just a wee bit is just doing something, but nothing positive or productive; but they can claim they are trying...
CivilAir does not represent the vast majority of controllers - it represents the few militant reps who think they know what controllers want - but really aren't attuned to the day-to-day concerns of the 'rank and file'.
{RANT ON} In my experience the people that get the sh!ts with Civil Air, had a sook about a particular topic and then when either the cause wasn't championed or was rejected by the majority or simply the fight was lost, blamed the union for not winning, like it was the unions fault that they lost, or had no mechanism for change or otherwise were not prepared to spend significant money on an individual cause with little or no benefit to the membership.
There were many people who have left and rejoined etc. for various reasons, but blaming the union for not achieving the goals of everyone is often the easy out; almost always ultimately ASA is responsible for your gripe, not the union; but they are an easier target.
Many things in the CA/EBA etc are not at the unions request, but the employers.
As for an individual achieving a better outcome than the collective, well I'd like to see that; why are non members not going down stairs requesting an individual AWA and not scabbing off the paying members (agreement); because they know what they would get...
{Rant off}
RE: Training, it sounds horrible and it is.
I have many mature friends that would make excellent controllers but have no capacity to surrender their current salaries for an ATC training wage or are prepared to suffer the concept of being sent somewhere else.
Being now August 265 (or something like that), it isn't surprising that things aren't fixed; you need to suffer more pain; ie cut off the leg to keep the patient alive. But the leg will grow back... It is going to hurt.
Some rosters need to be in the short term sacrificed and/or traffic restricted (maybe the GFC downturn naturally helps) to free up human resources to get a)quality trainees, b)more trainees through. Wasting money on new rostering tools to save just a wee bit is just doing something, but nothing positive or productive; but they can claim they are trying...