RAAF ATC Staffing Levels

[BurglarsDog]

Offers:

Brisbane 5
Melbourne 11
Sydney 1

DogGone

[C-change]

I know the Syd spot is for TWR but are those other numbers for TMA/TWR or enroute?
Only a rumour but I did hear on the grape vine there was a suggestion of running a short en-route course for 16 in Sep. Timings look about right considering Blue suites must give 90 days notice.

Track Coastal,

Having said that shouldn't virgindriver, RENURPPand Capt Grumpy expect a quality service?

You bet, couldn't agree more but the service will not improve when people have a shot at the indiviuals trying their best. Take it up with management or go higher.

For the aviators;
Where I work, we have lost three staff in the last year, that haven't been replaced. Their combined global ATC experience was 68yrs. We now run limited hrs and we hate going CTAF when our customers are still flying but if we go overtime and there is an incident or worse, guess where we go.

I think some of the aviators out there need to understand the average time in the seat for RAAF staff these days is approx 3-4 years, some bases are less.

If it was an airline it would run something like this.

Pilot gains PPL on PA28's and does commerical in nine months.
Next six months spent on SF34's and clock up 100-200hrs IF.
Then jump into the left set, check out as CAPT and start teaching next lot of FO's.
3-4 yrs later RPT guys are offering the big bucks to jump ship as their own RPT staff are headed OS to earn even bigger bucks.

Problem is back at the SF34 stage were inexperience is teaching the new staff and it goes on and on and we end up in the postion where in now.

If the aviators want things to improve, then get on our side and put pressure on the Pollies, management of ASA and Defence. They will only change if the are forced to.
There is nothing to stop us from having a national ATC system. Only then will it stop the drain and allow some experience to stay in one place for a while. It will eventually lead to a better service.

PS, someone asked why DN and TVL stay Military. Its where the war will be fought from if it ever happens. If DN falls to the bad guys, you pull back to Tindal. Next time you land at TVL and roll to the end of RWY 01, have a look at the massive OLA complex off to the left. Defence won't ever let them go.

[Pera]

Renurpp,

ATSB wouldn't investigate a level bust. What a waste of resources. An ESIR or ASOR should have been raised and ATSB should have been notified, but it's not going to make it to their website.

For the record, I have no idea if the 'alleged' level busts took place.

Pera.

[Delay Approved]

At the risk of this thread drifting even further I think RENURPP is in need of some education regarding the incident reporting system.

<DRIFT>
Military ATC don't submit ASIRs to the ATSB, instead they internally submit an ASOR (Aviation Safety Occurrence Report) which is the equivalent of an AsA ESIR.

In the event of a minor incident consistent with the description of an ATSB category 5 event (like a level bust where there is no confliction with other traffic or loss of separation) there will not be any investigation of the incident by either the Military or ATSB and accordingly there will not be an investigation report. The event will be recorded in the database for statistical purposes only.

In such events you should be informed of the incident at the time on the radio or preferably given the old 'please contact approach on landing', however this unfortunately doesn't always happen particularly if the controller is busy at the time.

I can't comment whether or not the level busts occurred because I don't know, but i can assure you that there would be no ASIR, nor would one be required, there would be no investigation report and you certainly won't find anything on the ATSB website - that doesn't mean that it didn't happen and doesn't mean that they weren't reported.

I apologise for further drifting this thread.
</DRIFT>

Back on topic - I wonder how long it will be before we see another retention benefit being offered. I know I would sign on for another year if I were offered a deal similar to that recently offered to pilots - but I'm not holding my breath.

[Track Coastal]

This is one of the most 'contructive' threads dealing with the RAAF ATCs 'problems' I've seen. A lot of good stuff looking at the 'why' and 'how' as opposed to the 'what' [happened the last time I was stuffed around].

Great post C-change. Question...why can't Airservices staff those bases even if they stay military assets? The navaids are Airservices maintained so why not the voices on the radio?

As an example RAF Gibraltar is run by NATS ATC (Britain's ASA equiv). Numerous RAF bases in Britain have civvy controllers and Skyguide staffs the Swiss bases.

[RENURPP]

Delay Approved,

You are correct, i am not fully aware of the requirements for ATC reporting of occurrences.


1) Are you able to suggest which document covers when ATC reports are required and how, and who they are submitted to.

2) I am certainly not aware of any "level busts"through any form of contact. I suspect it is rubbish.

I am happy with a PM if you like.

[scran]

Track Coastal;

Is you question re ASA staffing the bases one of legality as against staff availability?

I doubt there is any legal impediement to ASA staffing them (forget the old Civilian in a war zone argument that was raised years ago...), but I wonder if ASA have the staff capacity to do so (given the supposed shortage that ASA also have).

Was it you who made the comment about going downhill after the "tactical focus" was generated by 41/44Wg? Love it

[Track Coastal]

Was it you who made the comment about going downhill after the "tactical focus" was generated by 41/44Wg? Love it

Yes, but alas I'm not Dr Wernher von Braun reincarnated. It was pretty darn obvious that the core skills of separating in a safe, orderly and expeditious manner were going to get a back seat.

but I wonder if ASA have the staff capacity to do so (given the supposed shortage that ASA also have).

If we closed SATC (two ATC schools operate currently - duplication); All went to TAAATS (two ATC systems - duplication of support staff and compatibility); and, moved Darwin, Tindal, Townsville and Willy APP to BN centre, and Nowra and East Sale to ML Centre (as civs all and sundry) it may be viable and the staff continuity and stability will pay off in a few years (think of the supervisor duplication at all those units).

Question scran...when you got promoted in the early 90s how many WGCDR slots were there (and there was 1 GPCAPT) then? How many WGCDRs and GPCAPTs now (post 44/41WG and 'going green')?

[Quokka]

forget the old Civilian in a war zone argument that was raised years ago...

Always was a nefarious argument. Nothing precludes the controllers involved from being employed as Defence Civilians, therefore, no legal impediment. Throughout military history, civilians have been employed in specialist positions and deployed to combat areas whilst performing their duties as civilian specialists. This is nothing new to Armed Conflict.

However, I would find some comfort if the selection of such individuals were made by the ADF and not by Airservices Australia, having seen some disturbing breaches of security on VHF frequencies by civilian controllers with somewhat arrogant and gleefull disregard for the consequences to Defence personnel. The same controllers who treat their own colleagues with previous Defence employment somewhat differently to those without a history of employment in the ADF.

An e-mail to an Airservices Line Manager, written in appropriate business language with a short explanation of OPSEC and a very polite request was met with the response... "we don't have to comply with OPSEC".

[scran]

Question scran...when you got promoted in the early 90s how many WGCDR slots were there (and there was 1 GPCAPT) then? How many WGCDRs and GPCAPTs now (post 44/41WG and 'going green')?




Well, for "ATC" WGCDR positions (CE positions that had to be a ATC officer) I think it was 4 - COSATC, HQ Air Command (the old CATCO position), DD-ATS in Russell (Deputy Director within AFHQ) and the DD-Airspace Design/Defence Liaison Officer position at ASA in Canberra.

Mind you, Myself and Shartz promoted the same year (1995 promotion list) made it about 6 or 7 wearing the rank as against the 4 CE positions. Now, 41WG (as we were part of then) stood up around 1994 or so didn't it (I am 1 of only 2 ATC's that I know who NEVER served in either 41 or 44WG)? Part of the transition was creating the WGCDR Position at Willy, but there was a 2 year or so retention of the HQAC slot for some reason. Anyway - there was NO GPCAPT position for ATC (it was a general list position - OC41WG) with the first OC41WG being an Air Defence Officer, then we had two or three pilots (including the recently departed DCAF) as the OC - it wasn't till 44WG stood up that there was any "slot" for an ATC GPCAPT (and then I assume it would be in competition - if no-one was considered suitable for promotion they would have used a NAV or PLT to fill it) - around 1998/99 or so I think.

The other part, lets see - its about 1 GPCAPT & 7 WGCDR isn't it?

GPCAPT - OC 44WG

WGCDR - COSATC, XO 44, SATCO DAR, SATCO TVL, DD-ATS, DD-ATM/JCAM1 and uummm....



Remember - I ain't spoke to a live aircraft since I finished at SATCO PEA 1992........

[C-change]

PPruner, can't shed any light on your actual arrival mate as I have never worked in DN and never wanted to either. Sorry you probably like it up Nth but its too bloody hot.

I cannot recall having these issues in an AsA controlled airport ever. It is certainly not the first time in Darwin that I have been flying a route contrary to the ATCers understanding. i.e. issued a clearance by one organisation and the other not being aware.

This sort of statement comes up every so often and its a direct result of staff stability. In ASA, some controllers have been at the same group for 15 + yrs. They almost invented the wheel at some of these groups. You can't buy that sort of experience it takes time.
The RAAFies have other ADF responsibilites on top of ATC and are required to constantly move around the country. When you get, at best, 3 yrs in a location it makes it bloody hard to obtain and keep that "corporate knowledge". I prefer to call it experience.
Your correct,the SATCO can't do a lot about overall stability, they're the local management not CDF but still call them about the above arrival. They can play back the tapes and all may learn something from it.
Please remember that person may have pulled several doggos, missed out on leave for the last few months, been thrown in the deep end etc.

You need to take things higher to the pollies if you want real change.

Track Coastal

Question...why can't Airservices staff those bases even if they stay military assets? The navaids are Airservices maintained so why not the voices on the radio?

Other than staff numbers, different ATC computer systems, security clearances, nothing at all. All of these dramas can be overcome. Defence has APS working in every area of Defence including ATC. What stops it from happening is a failure of both organisations to recognise each others ATC Qual's, (happening very slowly) and people not wanting to let go of their power. Some have built career's out of the current structure.
This type of agreement was attempted with project Genesis but failed for a whole number of reasons, one being, the current APS staff at the southern bases could not be garunteed from being made redundant if ASA was to take over, how silly is that. ASA wanted to pick and choose who they wanted.
It will only ever change from the current system if it is directed from the ministers.

I personally don't think it will ever happen which is a shame. With a bit of lateral thinking everyones aims could be acheived, staff could stay put and gain some experience and the end users would get a better service.

But the way fuel prices are heading, we could all be looking for other jobs soon anyway.

[celeritas]

Truly the demise of RAAF ATC was the thinking that everyone in the category had to be tactically focused. They would have been better off having a small cadre of Tactical ATC (based out of TN and Willy); and the rest should have been defence civilians/AsA employees.
I pity the coalface guys and gals still there (RAAF) as it seems that little has changed.
Scran, surely your no still stomping aroung the halls @ Russell!? Wasn't there also the WGCDR position @ Training Command back in the early 90's?

[scran]

Celeritas:

You may be correct about the early 90's - there was probably a CATCO Training Command position.

No -I'm not stomping around the halls of Russell!!

I left Russell end of 2003 fro a two year posting to Sydney (Potts Point) then in Feb 2006 postd to a position in Strategy Group .

Resigned Easter 2007 and now work for the Federal Police.

[goaround121]

Townsville gripes

virgindriver
RE your issues:
1. use correct phraseology, especially the sequence of instructions – No excuse, many controllers in training, RAAF has a posting cycle whereby once personnel become proficient they get moved on to another location or discharge for the greener pastures of AsA. RAAF controllers also have to be multi-rated in TWR and APR and don’t get the ability to consolidate.

2. not giving us more than 3 instructions at once – where is that written down that you are only to issue no more than 3 instructions at once, come on there are two of you up front.

3. ILS operational but can't descend below 2000 till 6 DME? Still haven't found that NOTAM – you have this procedure mixed up, the not below A020 till 6 DME is to keep you clear of R768A SFC-A020 H24 (check ERSA) on a visual approache and not to do with the ILS.

[virgindriver]

3. ILS operational but can't descend below 2000 till 6 DME? Still haven't found that NOTAM – you have this procedure mixed up, the not below A020 till 6 DME is to keep you clear of R768A SFC-A020 H24 (check ERSA) on a visual approache and not to do with the ILS.

Not when you are tracking via the LLZ... I think that was a stuff up by ATC on the day. Even my ex miltiary offsider said so.

2. not giving us more than 3 instructions at once – where is that written down that you are only to issue no more than 3 instructions at once, come on there are two of you up front.

Easy on the ground but not so when on approach in the air. Not written anywhere but up to 3 are the norm before it gets error prone. Any more than that and 2 sets of instructions are the norm. EG you get a star clearance (which you get warning for) and after you have read that back then you typically get "and for sequencing..."

It's different when you are sitting on the ground with pen and paper ready compared to juggling that with a/c operations airborne. I realise TL is probably a training base for ATC and not many there would have actual flight time to see both sides, C152 aside.

Perhaps Grumpy would like to add something else constructive?

[max1]

Agree with virgindriver, as an ATC, I try not to overload pilots with multiple instructions at critical phases of flight.
You learn that all you end up doing is having to repeat yourself and add to your workload.Especially those from a non-english speaking background.
Oh for the good old days when we used to put trainees on famil flights.

[C-change]

Virgin Driver, sorry, bit unsure what your arrival was and just trying to clarify, hope I'm not sounding too picky but were you on a VSA tracking via the LLZ, or were you conducting a LLZ approach?

Also its been a while since I worked there but does the 9nm final for VSA and Satco for ILS still happen ? I always thought that for consistency why not track all to Satco. Your thoughts ?

Also, part of the problem with multiple ATC instructions comes from lack of understanding on behalf of ATC's. There is very little, to almost no flying experience amongst ATC and a lot of the Training Officers out there do not understand the work load on arrival or on ILS etc. This unfortuneately gets passed onto trainee's.

Was involved in a very good "love in" as it was called with the F111 crews a few years back at AMB. ATC went to sqn and walked through brief, mission plan, pre flight and watched HUD tape of the sortie. Very informative day esp cockpit workload. Did the reverse and cranked up the ATC Approach sim and let the Knuks vector a sequence with all the internal coord etc.

Great day had by all, pity it can't happen more often.

[Capt.Grumpy]

Perhaps Grumpy would like to add something else constructive?

Sorry about the delay but have been away on 4 day trip.
Unfortunately I don't diary the litany of TL "incompetence" but will try to pluck some out of the air. My company flies into TL at least six times a week and has done this for at least the last twenty years or so (I have been flying into it for the fifteen years I have been with the company).
The latest was about 10 days ago. In the morning from start of taxi until line up 23 mins. That same afternoon from taxi until line up 27 mins. Come on fellas, not good enough. No more than 3 arrivals both times. Put TCAS onto max range to see what was coming and bugger all.
Routinely held at holding point Alpha one (called ready) while an aircraft on approx 8-9 mile final is then cleared to land. TCAS shows nothing to the east in the direction of departure.
We don't have the problems at Cairns, Mackay, Rockhampton or Brisbane that we regularly have at Townsville. All the other blokes in my company are of the same opinion as myself. I have canvassed the opinions of mates with Virgin and Sunnies and they all agree, Townsville is not good.
Last year enroute from Mackay to Townsville we were cleared to 7000' (VFR conditions). We were told that traffic was another aircraft on a reciprocal track at 6000'. Sure enough the TCAS confirmed this. The other aircraft traced down the TCAS screen towards us. There was no other aircraft within a 15 mile radius of us. The other pilot remarked at the time "fcuk, don't these clowns know what a vector is". Consequently we ended up over the top of the airfield at 7000' and had to do a spiral descent onto 01 . Fcuking pathetic.
These are but a few instances that I can think of off the top of my head but there are many more. When a few years ago it was announced that TL controllers were going to Iraq to train the controllers at Baghdad airport, this created much mirth at my workplace about the poor bloody Iraqi's. This turned to some dread when we realized that it probably meant the B team was being left in charge at TL.
I'm sure the guys at TL are wonderful blokes, kind to their mothers and like cats and small dogs, it's just as ATCO's they're not real good.

ps, just remembered , on the odd occasion Caribou, C130 and B350 crews transit through our base at Cairns. One of the blokes I work with asked a Caribou crew what they thought of TL ATC and if they were stuffed around like the rest of us. The answer and I quote "they're ****"

[virgindriver]

Hi C-Change. 9 mile finals still happen in TL. Any track shortening is good as far as I am concerned.

TL ATC- they are far from incompetent but there are better. I never have any hassles with CBR ATC.

I am far from perfect myself but since some suggestions were sought on TL ATC I offered my thoughts, however nit picky they may be. I know others share my views.

[goaround121]

Capt Grumpy, one clarification the RAAF did send controllers to Iraq, not just from TL but RAAF ATC wide.

As for track shortening, all arrivals for 01 are now tracked to SATCO as a TMP, the 9NM final is rarely used, you could always ask for it if visual approach is on the ATIS unless the cloud near final may lead to you calling visual late.

All bases train, the sausage factory is continually pumping them out, once they get proficient it’s time to move them on. Also clogging up the sky are Caribou, SF34 and SW4, Army helicopters and local lighties all training as well which might add to your delays. TL is not a capital city so the priorities are a little different.

Late last year how they treated runway 01 and 07 changed because of an incident, they now have to be treated as crossing runways.

virgindriver, were you held up because of EMQ helicopter into the hospital?