Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels
Join Date: May 2002
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Singa,
ASA are desperate, I think the real reason that they have gone cold on the O/S recruitment is the knockbacks they have been getting.
O/S controllers, who are displacing themselves and maybe families, can do a hell of a lot better elsewhere.
They have just substantially upped their offers to entice RAAF (our airforce) controllers over.
I doubt you would get Adelaide but I wouldn't be shy in contacting them and letting them know of your interest.
ASA are desperate, I think the real reason that they have gone cold on the O/S recruitment is the knockbacks they have been getting.
O/S controllers, who are displacing themselves and maybe families, can do a hell of a lot better elsewhere.
They have just substantially upped their offers to entice RAAF (our airforce) controllers over.
I doubt you would get Adelaide but I wouldn't be shy in contacting them and letting them know of your interest.
Join Date: Oct 2005
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I'm currently an ATC with ASA, having moved to Australia from overseas. At the time I was recruited (as an ab-initio), I was living in Australia as a Permanant Resident. As I recall, all I needed to do was demonstrate that I had the right to live and work in Australia to meet that part of the selection criteria.
I would have thought that if you obtained permanant residency in your own right (rather than being sponsored in some fashion by ASA - assuming they may do such a thing) then you'd be in a stronger position to negotiate your entry payscale and location with ASA as an overseas controller.
Migration information can be found at Workers - Visas & Immigration
I would have thought that if you obtained permanant residency in your own right (rather than being sponsored in some fashion by ASA - assuming they may do such a thing) then you'd be in a stronger position to negotiate your entry payscale and location with ASA as an overseas controller.
Migration information can be found at Workers - Visas & Immigration
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Thanks for answers,but those answers open new door,and since asa web site is not precise at some places we would like to ask:
1.apart from Brisbane and Melbourne centre is there any other unit with app/rdr facility? Here in Europe we have a lot of units where twr/app/rdr is located at the tower building. This question for us is important because people are multi rated and no one wants to be just twr atco for ages. We believe that there is huge salary difference between units and twr atcos and app/rdr atcos.
2.What could be a salary(net) for direct entry twr atco,provided that such possibility exists?
Thanks,
1.apart from Brisbane and Melbourne centre is there any other unit with app/rdr facility? Here in Europe we have a lot of units where twr/app/rdr is located at the tower building. This question for us is important because people are multi rated and no one wants to be just twr atco for ages. We believe that there is huge salary difference between units and twr atcos and app/rdr atcos.
2.What could be a salary(net) for direct entry twr atco,provided that such possibility exists?
Thanks,
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Melbourne
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There are many towers and/or approach cells accross australia. Quick list: Perth, Adelaide, Alice Springs, Hobart, Launceston and more.
The problem is that many of the jobs at centres outside of Melbourne and Brisbane are popular...not everyone wants to live in those 2 places!
The salaries vary. There is very little difference between the pay for an approach controller and a tower controller at a major city aerodrome. Tower controllers at smaller cities (eg Launceston) can earn less though.
As far as what kind of salary you can expect if you get here. Well, you would probably have to negotiate that if you get offered a position. I beleive ASA have recently had to offer the international recruits a higher than normal starting pay just to attract them. I imagine if you are a suitably qualified person with skills we need then you would have some leeway as to where your pay would start.
Also, be aware that we are currently in negotiations with ASA over pay and conditions for the next few years, so things may change a little in the next 6 months (hopefully!)
If you need more detail, PM me an email address and i'll email you the currrent agreement from work.
The problem is that many of the jobs at centres outside of Melbourne and Brisbane are popular...not everyone wants to live in those 2 places!
The salaries vary. There is very little difference between the pay for an approach controller and a tower controller at a major city aerodrome. Tower controllers at smaller cities (eg Launceston) can earn less though.
As far as what kind of salary you can expect if you get here. Well, you would probably have to negotiate that if you get offered a position. I beleive ASA have recently had to offer the international recruits a higher than normal starting pay just to attract them. I imagine if you are a suitably qualified person with skills we need then you would have some leeway as to where your pay would start.
Also, be aware that we are currently in negotiations with ASA over pay and conditions for the next few years, so things may change a little in the next 6 months (hopefully!)
If you need more detail, PM me an email address and i'll email you the currrent agreement from work.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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well, today was the 4th meeting between the union and AsA.
and lo and behold.....
AsA still has not tabled an offer.
2 and a 1/2 months into the so-called negotiation period. (and 1+1/2 months after the first actual meeting on the 12th May)
not sure what's been negotiated so far.
AsA did say that CivilAir's vision document - which someone was happy enough to leak to the media with connotations that it was a claim (even though officially it is not) - quote " tells them nothing".
AsA then apparently went on to schedule further meetings where they wish to discuss "rostering flexibility" amongst other things.
just when I think my morale can't get any lower, this lack of good faith negotiation plunges it even further.
fortunately, my dissatisfaction has an inverse relationship with my morale.
and lo and behold.....
AsA still has not tabled an offer.
2 and a 1/2 months into the so-called negotiation period. (and 1+1/2 months after the first actual meeting on the 12th May)
not sure what's been negotiated so far.
AsA did say that CivilAir's vision document - which someone was happy enough to leak to the media with connotations that it was a claim (even though officially it is not) - quote " tells them nothing".
AsA then apparently went on to schedule further meetings where they wish to discuss "rostering flexibility" amongst other things.
just when I think my morale can't get any lower, this lack of good faith negotiation plunges it even further.
fortunately, my dissatisfaction has an inverse relationship with my morale.
Join Date: May 2002
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Something from what ASA are aiming at
Flexibility - specifically rostering and a desire to move to a fatigue based system.
Apologies to those whose knowledge of fatigue predictive tools is little or non-existent. Ours is based on past and future shift runs to predict your decision making abilities, but not how tired you are.
Using the ASA system ( which apparently the company who sold it to them aren't happy about, and told ASA they are using it incorrectly) leaves you with scenarios like this-
Controller rostered for a 7am-3pm shift the next day,then asked to cover for night shift that night 11pm-6am instead.This is on the back end of a run of shifts.
Fatigue was assessed by machine that he would just break the limit. The limit is 80. (80 what, I have no idea).. ASA have a habit of lopping 15 minutes here and there to get under magical limit. (This is one part of the reason that the designers are unhappy with ASA).
Controller works the shift, then the Supervisor notices that the 7am-3pm shift has not been deleted from the fatigue computer.
Out of interest he asks the machine to reassess the fatigue rating, wondering how high it will go. Drumroll. The machine has dropped the fatigue rating way DOWN, supervisor checks again and again, and can't work it out.At the top of fatigue then one hour break followed by a full shift and now he's LESS tired.
Sends off query to company that designed it.
Company sends back reply. Now, apparently based on this system your body clock 'resets' when the sun comes up.
So next time you've been up all night, just stay up until the sun comes up, and you'll be right. I've done it before and to a certain extent its true, but to build rosters based on that kind of logic to work constant 24/7 shifts is ridiculous.
Flexibility - specifically rostering and a desire to move to a fatigue based system.
Apologies to those whose knowledge of fatigue predictive tools is little or non-existent. Ours is based on past and future shift runs to predict your decision making abilities, but not how tired you are.
Using the ASA system ( which apparently the company who sold it to them aren't happy about, and told ASA they are using it incorrectly) leaves you with scenarios like this-
Controller rostered for a 7am-3pm shift the next day,then asked to cover for night shift that night 11pm-6am instead.This is on the back end of a run of shifts.
Fatigue was assessed by machine that he would just break the limit. The limit is 80. (80 what, I have no idea).. ASA have a habit of lopping 15 minutes here and there to get under magical limit. (This is one part of the reason that the designers are unhappy with ASA).
Controller works the shift, then the Supervisor notices that the 7am-3pm shift has not been deleted from the fatigue computer.
Out of interest he asks the machine to reassess the fatigue rating, wondering how high it will go. Drumroll. The machine has dropped the fatigue rating way DOWN, supervisor checks again and again, and can't work it out.At the top of fatigue then one hour break followed by a full shift and now he's LESS tired.
Sends off query to company that designed it.
Company sends back reply. Now, apparently based on this system your body clock 'resets' when the sun comes up.
So next time you've been up all night, just stay up until the sun comes up, and you'll be right. I've done it before and to a certain extent its true, but to build rosters based on that kind of logic to work constant 24/7 shifts is ridiculous.
Last edited by max1; 4th Jul 2008 at 00:38.
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The limit is 80.
but we're shift workers, and somehow tougher, so we're allowed to be twice as tired and still "be okay"
BTW, every roster I've ever worked/been involved in, all have tend to have an acquittal period (average out) of 6 to 12 weeks - and nearly every one gets close to the magical number of 80 at least once in the aforementioned period.
and thats before you work any overtime.
let alone, say 2 extra shifts (out of the 5) that I've been offered over the last two days.
undervaluedATC said
As they say in the classics, "I'm surprised you are surprised".
Delay tactics 101. Despite all the rherotic a leopard doesn't change its spots.
AsA still has not tabled an offer
Delay tactics 101. Despite all the rherotic a leopard doesn't change its spots.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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.05
Sorry, I'm gonna quote you
You have a decision to make - go to work or stay at home and drink a six pack
I know which way I would rather have my abilities impaired!
Don't quote me but I thought 80 was the equivalent to .05
I know which way I would rather have my abilities impaired!
Grandpa Aerotart
Guys FAID is the greatest scam ever inflicted on workers.
I once had the great misfortune to be the CP of an international corporate jet operation and had to deal with CASA at a time when they had the hots for FAID as an alternative to CAO 48 and sundry dispensations. One of the morons from the university of south Australia who had dreamt this **** up in a lab to address fatigue in long distance truck drivers was then working for CASA as a 'consultant'
Having taken a great deal of time to get my head around it and after not insignificant expense on the part of my company for the computer program I determined it was a monumental WOFTAM about the same time as CASA took fright at the concept...not long after I told them we'd be happy continuing with CAO 48 thank you very fecking much.
I take some pride in the faint possibility that some of my more 'direct' observations on FAID made in phone conversations to CASA (including said moron) at the time may have contributed to their level of discomfort and it's subsequent fall from favor.
The great failing of FAID is it takes no account of 'life' in its calculation of fatigue, there is only 'work' and 'non work'. 'Work' attracts a fatigue score and 'non work' does not. 'Non work' assumes you are existing in a stress free bubble immune from 'life' when ever you're not doing 'work'. It assumes you never mow the lawn, run around paying bills, drive the kids to school, play sport (forget cardiovascular health - that would attract a BIG FAID score), argue with the wife...etc.
It is the sort of ****e that could only be dreamed up by a academic in a lab.
The only way FAID could ever hope of spitting out a reasonable answer would be if EVERYTHING you do, or don't do - think not get decent sleep in the middle of the day, in every 24 hr period was assigned a score and entered into the program...wouldn't that go down a treat with AsA?
According to our FAID software we could operate Singapore (our base) to Kathmandu return single crew and stay under 80. I did that trip many times with two crew and we all arrived home knackered...it was often an 18 hour duty (starting at some dumb time of night) filled with bad weather and much stress dealing with 3rd world officialdom of the worst kind.
FAID is a scam.
I once had the great misfortune to be the CP of an international corporate jet operation and had to deal with CASA at a time when they had the hots for FAID as an alternative to CAO 48 and sundry dispensations. One of the morons from the university of south Australia who had dreamt this **** up in a lab to address fatigue in long distance truck drivers was then working for CASA as a 'consultant'
Having taken a great deal of time to get my head around it and after not insignificant expense on the part of my company for the computer program I determined it was a monumental WOFTAM about the same time as CASA took fright at the concept...not long after I told them we'd be happy continuing with CAO 48 thank you very fecking much.
I take some pride in the faint possibility that some of my more 'direct' observations on FAID made in phone conversations to CASA (including said moron) at the time may have contributed to their level of discomfort and it's subsequent fall from favor.
The great failing of FAID is it takes no account of 'life' in its calculation of fatigue, there is only 'work' and 'non work'. 'Work' attracts a fatigue score and 'non work' does not. 'Non work' assumes you are existing in a stress free bubble immune from 'life' when ever you're not doing 'work'. It assumes you never mow the lawn, run around paying bills, drive the kids to school, play sport (forget cardiovascular health - that would attract a BIG FAID score), argue with the wife...etc.
It is the sort of ****e that could only be dreamed up by a academic in a lab.
The only way FAID could ever hope of spitting out a reasonable answer would be if EVERYTHING you do, or don't do - think not get decent sleep in the middle of the day, in every 24 hr period was assigned a score and entered into the program...wouldn't that go down a treat with AsA?
According to our FAID software we could operate Singapore (our base) to Kathmandu return single crew and stay under 80. I did that trip many times with two crew and we all arrived home knackered...it was often an 18 hour duty (starting at some dumb time of night) filled with bad weather and much stress dealing with 3rd world officialdom of the worst kind.
FAID is a scam.
Join Date: May 2002
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Chimbu,
I'm reasonably certain that is the one we have, unfortunately ATC don't have regulated hours under CAO 48 , and CASA have been quite happy for our rosters to operate under our Principle Of Rostering (POR's).
It is these PORs that ASA would like to get rid of. They are not that restrictive .
They allow among other things, for a return to work after only an 8 hour break, and that 10 shifts in a row can be worked. Through Facilitative Arrangements shift lengths of 15 hours have been worked. They mandate that you must get at least a 20 minute break in a 7 hour shift, except if you work in a remote single person operation e.g. regional towers, where you are on your own.FAID tends to give all these things a big tick.
ASA consider these things restrictive and archaic, and would like to roster split shifts i.e. work 5-9am to cover the peaks, then return and work 4-8pm that evening and count it as one shift.
We have been to CASA to regulate hours but this is in the 'TOO HARD' basket and they are content for ASA to self regulate (sound familiar), and I am loathe to think what timeframe would be involved if ASA got rid of PORs and we then relied on CASA to implement regulated hours for us.
You are right , FAID is a scam.
I'm reasonably certain that is the one we have, unfortunately ATC don't have regulated hours under CAO 48 , and CASA have been quite happy for our rosters to operate under our Principle Of Rostering (POR's).
It is these PORs that ASA would like to get rid of. They are not that restrictive .
They allow among other things, for a return to work after only an 8 hour break, and that 10 shifts in a row can be worked. Through Facilitative Arrangements shift lengths of 15 hours have been worked. They mandate that you must get at least a 20 minute break in a 7 hour shift, except if you work in a remote single person operation e.g. regional towers, where you are on your own.FAID tends to give all these things a big tick.
ASA consider these things restrictive and archaic, and would like to roster split shifts i.e. work 5-9am to cover the peaks, then return and work 4-8pm that evening and count it as one shift.
We have been to CASA to regulate hours but this is in the 'TOO HARD' basket and they are content for ASA to self regulate (sound familiar), and I am loathe to think what timeframe would be involved if ASA got rid of PORs and we then relied on CASA to implement regulated hours for us.
You are right , FAID is a scam.
I'm in one of those moods
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... All 100% spot on Chuck!
.
.... drum roll
.
CASA will not (apparently) regulate ATC duty times as they believe:-
.
"AsA is a mature organisation with systems to match, and therefore they do not need to intervene"
.
... oh well, the paper trail is there highlighting the failings for when the inevitable occurs"
.
Edit
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.... pollogies Max ... posted same time as you!
.
.... drum roll
.
CASA will not (apparently) regulate ATC duty times as they believe:-
.
"AsA is a mature organisation with systems to match, and therefore they do not need to intervene"
.
... oh well, the paper trail is there highlighting the failings for when the inevitable occurs"
.
Edit
.
.... pollogies Max ... posted same time as you!
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Chimbu,
I agree wholeheartedly, the testing validation process is done in the main with university types; when I was at university I had a very different circadian rhythm than I do today; lifesytle, friends, parties vs working, families and household chores.
FAID is a part of the 'FMS'; but the other elements of the FMS don't kick in until you bust the magic FAID score.
FAID is not measured against 'task performed'; it is universal; the task of Melbourne Tower is very different to the task of Perth Approach; particularly in the wee small hours.
ASA is a joke, but they have someone, or something they can blame when it goes tits up, such is the safety culture at the moment.
The senates "beyond the midnight oil" report called for 'ATC Duty hours' yet 8 years later we have an inept regulator unable to process a simple regulation change guaranteeing safety as a higher priority than ASA's profit.
There latest excuse was that hours are contained in the (principles of Rostering" (POR) section of the Certified Agreement so it's not needed; yet the employer whilst giving us nothing so far has indicated it need more rostering flexibility; ie the PORs are up for grabs according to the employer.
The devil in me says give'm up and then wonder why the workers call in sick twice as much; however they want to change sickleave too.
I agree wholeheartedly, the testing validation process is done in the main with university types; when I was at university I had a very different circadian rhythm than I do today; lifesytle, friends, parties vs working, families and household chores.
FAID is a part of the 'FMS'; but the other elements of the FMS don't kick in until you bust the magic FAID score.
FAID is not measured against 'task performed'; it is universal; the task of Melbourne Tower is very different to the task of Perth Approach; particularly in the wee small hours.
ASA is a joke, but they have someone, or something they can blame when it goes tits up, such is the safety culture at the moment.
The senates "beyond the midnight oil" report called for 'ATC Duty hours' yet 8 years later we have an inept regulator unable to process a simple regulation change guaranteeing safety as a higher priority than ASA's profit.
There latest excuse was that hours are contained in the (principles of Rostering" (POR) section of the Certified Agreement so it's not needed; yet the employer whilst giving us nothing so far has indicated it need more rostering flexibility; ie the PORs are up for grabs according to the employer.
The devil in me says give'm up and then wonder why the workers call in sick twice as much; however they want to change sickleave too.
Valid comment Chimbu in relation to FAID and how experts think shift workers can work back of the clock and still be mentally fit.
Interesting bit on Sixty Minutes a few weeks ago in relation to how your reactions slow down as you become more tired.
Amazing how many c%$t's are experts on fatigue management, but never done shift work in their life.
CASA CAO48 Exemption is a bloody lethal document, split shifts, minimum rest periods, two days off in fourteen days etc. Great work CASA!!!
Interesting bit on Sixty Minutes a few weeks ago in relation to how your reactions slow down as you become more tired.
Amazing how many c%$t's are experts on fatigue management, but never done shift work in their life.
CASA CAO48 Exemption is a bloody lethal document, split shifts, minimum rest periods, two days off in fourteen days etc. Great work CASA!!!
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Excellant post Chimbu.
Not all of the boffins agree...
One Sleep Researcher I know was stunned when he read the Australian ATC roster and Principles of Rostering that I showed him over lunch one day. His said with confidence that it was the complete opposite of what we should be working. But then, he does spend his days testing and treating people for Sleep Disorders... not sitting in a small office down a back corridor of a University fudging raw data to achieve a Correlation Co-efficient of 1.0 for that next Higher Degree that one might be obsessed with achieving at the expense of a legitimate contribution to the Body of Knowledge.
It is the sort of ****e that could only be dreamed up by a academic in a lab.
One Sleep Researcher I know was stunned when he read the Australian ATC roster and Principles of Rostering that I showed him over lunch one day. His said with confidence that it was the complete opposite of what we should be working. But then, he does spend his days testing and treating people for Sleep Disorders... not sitting in a small office down a back corridor of a University fudging raw data to achieve a Correlation Co-efficient of 1.0 for that next Higher Degree that one might be obsessed with achieving at the expense of a legitimate contribution to the Body of Knowledge.
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Quok,
The average ATC punter wants to work "Evening, Afternoon, Morning and Doggo" in 3.5 days because it "maximises the time off". The fact that they then spend most of the 2 days off feeling like Sh1t seems to escape them apparently.
Any thinking person knows that we should not work the style of roster that the masses keep implementing but yet the "majority" vote wins all the time.
You cannot help stupid I'm afraid.
Slug
The average ATC punter wants to work "Evening, Afternoon, Morning and Doggo" in 3.5 days because it "maximises the time off". The fact that they then spend most of the 2 days off feeling like Sh1t seems to escape them apparently.
Any thinking person knows that we should not work the style of roster that the masses keep implementing but yet the "majority" vote wins all the time.
You cannot help stupid I'm afraid.
Slug
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Slug... as sad as it is and with the best of intentions... Oz ATC still cling to what they have worked for years... because they have never worked anything else.
Sleep research on night shifts demonstrated that full recovery from a night shift does not occur until after four days have lapsed since cessation of duty on the night shift.
The roster I now work has me finishing the second night shift (the last shift in my rostered six shifts-in-a-row) at 7AM and I return for duty exactly four days later at 7AM. The first two days off are a bit of a hangover (no pun intended), but the third and fourth day are fine.
Six shifts worked every ten calendar days. Never called in on my days off (one of the six shifts, once a month, is a Grey Evening). The shortest break between shifts is 16 hours (three times a week) and the longest break between shifts is 24 hours (twice a week).
I'm rostered to work two night shifts every ten days... and night shifts are hard no matter how you roster them... yet this roster is a lot easier to work than the Australian roster and you have plenty of time off between shifts for your daily routine and to relax.
Depending on how I work my annual recreation leave, I can easily achieve the maximum of 16... yes 16 calendar weeks off work (if taken in fortnightly blocks). Which results in a total of 50 night shifts rostered in a year (not including Grey Evening call-outs... of which I've had to attend for one in the last twelve months).
Oh, and did I mention... we're short of staff. I've changed lines once on the roster in twelve months and I was given two extra days off as compensation.
If Civilair cannot negotiate a roster that doesn't get manipulated and a leave entitlement close to what we enjoy here and in other parts of the ATC world, then something is seriously wrong.
FAID is a fools game played by ALM's who think that it will protect them legally when a tired controller bangs two together... it will not.
A retired member of the legal fraternity in Australia told me not so long ago that the findings in Court in Switzerland following the collision over German airspace would be considered by an Australian Judge in determining individual and collective criminal liability following a collision in Australia. Australian ATC ALM's should look very closely at the findings... very very closely... because FAID will not protect you.
Sleep research on night shifts demonstrated that full recovery from a night shift does not occur until after four days have lapsed since cessation of duty on the night shift.
The roster I now work has me finishing the second night shift (the last shift in my rostered six shifts-in-a-row) at 7AM and I return for duty exactly four days later at 7AM. The first two days off are a bit of a hangover (no pun intended), but the third and fourth day are fine.
Six shifts worked every ten calendar days. Never called in on my days off (one of the six shifts, once a month, is a Grey Evening). The shortest break between shifts is 16 hours (three times a week) and the longest break between shifts is 24 hours (twice a week).
I'm rostered to work two night shifts every ten days... and night shifts are hard no matter how you roster them... yet this roster is a lot easier to work than the Australian roster and you have plenty of time off between shifts for your daily routine and to relax.
Depending on how I work my annual recreation leave, I can easily achieve the maximum of 16... yes 16 calendar weeks off work (if taken in fortnightly blocks). Which results in a total of 50 night shifts rostered in a year (not including Grey Evening call-outs... of which I've had to attend for one in the last twelve months).
Oh, and did I mention... we're short of staff. I've changed lines once on the roster in twelve months and I was given two extra days off as compensation.
If Civilair cannot negotiate a roster that doesn't get manipulated and a leave entitlement close to what we enjoy here and in other parts of the ATC world, then something is seriously wrong.
FAID is a fools game played by ALM's who think that it will protect them legally when a tired controller bangs two together... it will not.
A retired member of the legal fraternity in Australia told me not so long ago that the findings in Court in Switzerland following the collision over German airspace would be considered by an Australian Judge in determining individual and collective criminal liability following a collision in Australia. Australian ATC ALM's should look very closely at the findings... very very closely... because FAID will not protect you.