Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations
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A380
From what i Understand the A380 will be very limited flying and destinations. Best "guess" until the actual routing is as published by Qantas marketing is some london via Singapore and LA flying.
Moving forward probably Hong Kong and some MOre LA..Sydney crew unlikely to go throught to LHR on A380 as from asia to London will likely be flown by London base as current.
No Seniority Bidding in A380 however crew will be able to have ability to express preferences via a fair share system. Maybe buddy bidding and type of trip. Qantas will not agree to senirority in A380..
Its brave new world.. My prediction is that within a couple of years over there even new crew will be asking for a seniority bid system lol
The company doesnt understand how important it is to crew, personally with three destinations it doesnt make a crap of difference to most crew but that will change over time i predict
From what i Understand the A380 will be very limited flying and destinations. Best "guess" until the actual routing is as published by Qantas marketing is some london via Singapore and LA flying.
Moving forward probably Hong Kong and some MOre LA..Sydney crew unlikely to go throught to LHR on A380 as from asia to London will likely be flown by London base as current.
No Seniority Bidding in A380 however crew will be able to have ability to express preferences via a fair share system. Maybe buddy bidding and type of trip. Qantas will not agree to senirority in A380..
Its brave new world.. My prediction is that within a couple of years over there even new crew will be asking for a seniority bid system lol
The company doesnt understand how important it is to crew, personally with three destinations it doesnt make a crap of difference to most crew but that will change over time i predict
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No worries, DEFCON4 :-) That's why I posted - I wasn't trying to be a turd ;-) The 747-300's already carry 450 pax (52J 398Y). But I guess that premium economy must take up more space.
I think there are people out there who will want to fly on the A380 just for a change and because it is new, etc. With the salary top-up, it makes it much more attractive, but that's only if you don't mind having a much higher divisor. With only 4 aircraft flying initially, though, I doubt anyone will be doing anything close to 240 hours.
As far as the union is concerned, the 787-900 will be our major vehicle for growth. QF has a stack of these on order and will use them to replace the 767 and A330 aircraft on international routes.
I'm a little disappointed that the A380 will not just be another aircraft we can fly on like 747s, a330, etc. I had been looking forward to it. But I am more happy that I finally feel like we will have some job security and growth in Aussie longhaul.
I think there are people out there who will want to fly on the A380 just for a change and because it is new, etc. With the salary top-up, it makes it much more attractive, but that's only if you don't mind having a much higher divisor. With only 4 aircraft flying initially, though, I doubt anyone will be doing anything close to 240 hours.
As far as the union is concerned, the 787-900 will be our major vehicle for growth. QF has a stack of these on order and will use them to replace the 767 and A330 aircraft on international routes.
I'm a little disappointed that the A380 will not just be another aircraft we can fly on like 747s, a330, etc. I had been looking forward to it. But I am more happy that I finally feel like we will have some job security and growth in Aussie longhaul.
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the trouble with the A380 is that Qantas has so many options open to it on crewing.
It could give it to us as an additional aircraft but will not do so on 182.3 hours a roster nor on our current conditions.
It could just set up a new company to fly it, give it to short haul who do 280 a roster for 25% less money than us or even wet lease with Jetstar Intl crew in our uniforms at 304 hours a roster.
Unfortunaetly the FAAA was hamstrung by its own members who said "no more hours" and no substantial changes.
With those restrictions in mind this is a remarkable EBA outcome that still gives us jobs going forward and maintenance of key conditions.
It could give it to us as an additional aircraft but will not do so on 182.3 hours a roster nor on our current conditions.
It could just set up a new company to fly it, give it to short haul who do 280 a roster for 25% less money than us or even wet lease with Jetstar Intl crew in our uniforms at 304 hours a roster.
Unfortunaetly the FAAA was hamstrung by its own members who said "no more hours" and no substantial changes.
With those restrictions in mind this is a remarkable EBA outcome that still gives us jobs going forward and maintenance of key conditions.
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If you work more hours on the 380, are you working effectively for less pay per hour assuming they give you the same money you are on now? My company informant is adamant LA will be the first destination taking the majority of 380 flying followed by a single flight a day to LHR when the aircraft numbers increase.
How will the 787 be crewed? Again my company source has said it is their intention to go down the same path as that which the 380 going now (crewed by the new crewing company). In several years when these aircraft all arrive, where will that leave us.
How will the 787 be crewed? Again my company source has said it is their intention to go down the same path as that which the 380 going now (crewed by the new crewing company). In several years when these aircraft all arrive, where will that leave us.
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who is your company source???
You dont have to identify yourself but please identify the source. The Company at a level of management way above Cabin Crew Management have commiited that the 787 and all new wide bodied aircraft flown internatonally by qantas will be flown by the "mohicans"
Ths committment is in writing and all crew will have copies of the committments given in writing and signed by Lesley Grant on behalf of Qantas.
Of course i can understand that you might want to protect the source, but if you have any doubts at all about what i am saying call Lesley Grant yourself, or call Alison Webster or anyone on the FAAA negotiating Team.
Other than that you are spreading unveryfied Rumour.
I understand crew are paranoid generally about job security and the intention of Qantas Long Term, But i genuienely believe that the FAAA and the two top barristers they are using have got a very tight deal here
Isnt it about time something actually worked out well for us?????
You dont have to identify yourself but please identify the source. The Company at a level of management way above Cabin Crew Management have commiited that the 787 and all new wide bodied aircraft flown internatonally by qantas will be flown by the "mohicans"
Ths committment is in writing and all crew will have copies of the committments given in writing and signed by Lesley Grant on behalf of Qantas.
Of course i can understand that you might want to protect the source, but if you have any doubts at all about what i am saying call Lesley Grant yourself, or call Alison Webster or anyone on the FAAA negotiating Team.
Other than that you are spreading unveryfied Rumour.
I understand crew are paranoid generally about job security and the intention of Qantas Long Term, But i genuienely believe that the FAAA and the two top barristers they are using have got a very tight deal here
Isnt it about time something actually worked out well for us?????
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Last of.....
The Company at a level of management way above Cabin Crew Management have commiited that the 787 and all new wide bodied aircraft flown internatonally by qantas will be flown by the "mohicans"
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The Mohicans
WE fly new bodied aircraft or we have access to them?
We have access to the A380,but look at the conditions.
Are/Will the conditions for the 787 the same as the A380?
How old is the oldest 744...OJA?
All these changes will be phased in with new A380.
What is the time frame for the delivery of all A380s?
When do the 787s start arriving?
Arent the first 15 787s earmarked for Jet*
The A380 is like a small pimple on my bum...I cant see it but I know its there because it is mildly irritating.
We have access to the A380,but look at the conditions.
Are/Will the conditions for the 787 the same as the A380?
How old is the oldest 744...OJA?
All these changes will be phased in with new A380.
What is the time frame for the delivery of all A380s?
When do the 787s start arriving?
Arent the first 15 787s earmarked for Jet*
The A380 is like a small pimple on my bum...I cant see it but I know its there because it is mildly irritating.
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Emerging Details
Initially I thought that this was a good deal given the cicumstances.
Now Im not so sure.
Bidding and seniority removed from the A380
The slip formula removed from regional flying
240 hour rosters
Extended tours of duty without the right to vote.
With Carmen regional flying could become a nightmare
Six day patterns with no slip formula...you would not have a day without being in uniform.
Sick leave will explode.
Without the safeguards we have in place now this is going to be a hard sell.
Now I understand the 3K sweetener.
Now Im not so sure.
Bidding and seniority removed from the A380
The slip formula removed from regional flying
240 hour rosters
Extended tours of duty without the right to vote.
With Carmen regional flying could become a nightmare
Six day patterns with no slip formula...you would not have a day without being in uniform.
Sick leave will explode.
Without the safeguards we have in place now this is going to be a hard sell.
Now I understand the 3K sweetener.
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I knew this was too good to be true and I should have seen the light when Dixon said this was a great document.
pegasus this isn't a fairy tale pal this is life and Dixon has no intention of a happy ending for us.
how much else have you given away?we should have known the $3000 was a give away.
With 2 groups of cabin crew and one more expensive than the other how long will it be before the next vr package
I don't know about the last of the mohicans because this looks more like Custers last stand.
originally posted by pegasus:Isnt it about time something actually worked out well for us?????
how much else have you given away?we should have known the $3000 was a give away.
With 2 groups of cabin crew and one more expensive than the other how long will it be before the next vr package
I don't know about the last of the mohicans because this looks more like Custers last stand.
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Clearly none of you guys have been to any of the FAAA meetings. Once you have done that or at least had a conversation with the negotiating team you will be significantly better informed.
The EBA is a proposed document that you will get to vote on. If it is rejected thats democracy.
We will then be back where we started... No Access at all to the A380.
Under this EBA all new aircraft that come to long haul except for A380 will be flown under our conditions and on our salarys and on our bidding system. This EBA is complicated because it is so comprehensive.
The only way you will understand it is by attending FAAA meetings or talking to a members of the FAAA negotiating team until such time as you get the document and the attached letters from Qantas,(which will be well before you have to vote on the document)
Quite frankly if crew vote this EBA down then the long Haul Division will only have 747 aircraft, no regional flying at all, no accesss to A380, no bidding system at all (even in 747 land) as the juniors will not have any new recuits underneath them and will then pressure the Company to get rid of it.
Further more, Qantas has set up a new Company QCCA to employ new staff. At the moment that subsidiary company will be a party to our New EBA and new crew will be employed in our eba and be junior to us and be part of our eba on some revised conditions (still excellent and better than Jet Star intl).
That new company could then employ new staff and be given whatever flying qantas wants to give them and if we were lucky we might get whats left.
there would be redundancies and new starters would probably get all the LA flying on the 747 for the foreseeable future and anything else that Qantas wants to give them.
This EBA puts that scenario to bed for at least 5 years and in all probability permanently.
Go to the FAAA meetings and stop talking to ppl who havent been because they are talking total garbage. If the EBA goes down it would be a total disaster for Long Haul Crew.
The ONLY crew that are driving a no vote are the un informed and short haul crew.
Remember ...if this deal goes down then short haul start negotiating with Qantas as soon as our EBA is done and dusted. If ours is dead then Short Haul can have whatever they can negotiate because all of our gains in terms of new aircraft and flying in this EBA will be lost
I implore you to attend FAAA or even Company meetings...if you dont and dont get the right info the Long Haul Division with be finished
The EBA is a proposed document that you will get to vote on. If it is rejected thats democracy.
We will then be back where we started... No Access at all to the A380.
Under this EBA all new aircraft that come to long haul except for A380 will be flown under our conditions and on our salarys and on our bidding system. This EBA is complicated because it is so comprehensive.
The only way you will understand it is by attending FAAA meetings or talking to a members of the FAAA negotiating team until such time as you get the document and the attached letters from Qantas,(which will be well before you have to vote on the document)
Quite frankly if crew vote this EBA down then the long Haul Division will only have 747 aircraft, no regional flying at all, no accesss to A380, no bidding system at all (even in 747 land) as the juniors will not have any new recuits underneath them and will then pressure the Company to get rid of it.
Further more, Qantas has set up a new Company QCCA to employ new staff. At the moment that subsidiary company will be a party to our New EBA and new crew will be employed in our eba and be junior to us and be part of our eba on some revised conditions (still excellent and better than Jet Star intl).
That new company could then employ new staff and be given whatever flying qantas wants to give them and if we were lucky we might get whats left.
there would be redundancies and new starters would probably get all the LA flying on the 747 for the foreseeable future and anything else that Qantas wants to give them.
This EBA puts that scenario to bed for at least 5 years and in all probability permanently.
Go to the FAAA meetings and stop talking to ppl who havent been because they are talking total garbage. If the EBA goes down it would be a total disaster for Long Haul Crew.
The ONLY crew that are driving a no vote are the un informed and short haul crew.
Remember ...if this deal goes down then short haul start negotiating with Qantas as soon as our EBA is done and dusted. If ours is dead then Short Haul can have whatever they can negotiate because all of our gains in terms of new aircraft and flying in this EBA will be lost
I implore you to attend FAAA or even Company meetings...if you dont and dont get the right info the Long Haul Division with be finished
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Who was it that said at a meeting once.
If I have not scared you I have not done my job.
pegasus,you have to change your script.
Who would want to fly the a380 with these conditions?
No wonder you don't want any more info on pprune
If I have not scared you I have not done my job.
pegasus,you have to change your script.
The EBA is a proposed document that you will get to vote on. If it is rejected thats democracy.
We will then be back where we started... No Access at all to the A380.
We will then be back where we started... No Access at all to the A380.
No wonder you don't want any more info on pprune
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I don't think you understand how serious our situation is. It would be possible for QF to start recruiting new cabin crew on any conditions they want under the banner of QCCA and then have them working against us.
This EBA brings us all together which can only make us stronger.
You're one of the ones who does not want to fly the A380 under these conditions, obviously. Good for you. Just like you would not have wanted to go to the London base. But there are others who will at least appreciate the opportunity to work on the A380 if they want to.
RedTBar, can I suggest you call the union and have a chat with them personally to gain a better understanding.
Once again, I'd like to thank the negotiating team for what I believe is an excellent result, given our current circumstances.
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Leave Short Haulers along
This is a LH EBA discussion, I was surprised to see SH was even mentioned to have a 'drive to NO vote' in LH EBA. There are lots of your LH colleagues transferred to SH simply because they've had enough of LH flying, just remember that, not everyone wants a piece of your cake. Full stop.
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Pegasus wrote:
Crap, the vote on regional flying was borderline as it was. I don't want it and I don't do it and I'm sick of being accused of stealing long haul flying. I, and many others hold the FAAA Domestic responsible for alot and we have made it clear to them we are more than unimpressed.
The ONLY crew that are driving a no vote are the un informed and short haul crew.
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Flugbegleiter and Pegasus747,don't get me wrong because I think we have no choice but to vote yes.I just think we have been painted into a corner by a number of people.
I will be going to a meeting but you have to be serious and say that there will be bugger all existing crew apply for the a380.The only ones that will go for it will be the ones like the slurpers who will do anything the company tells them.
pegasus in his first posts told us that we would have acess to the a380 on our pay.
But who will want to work on it with
No roster
No vote at 17 hours
Increased hours up to 240 and don't tell us that bs about that won't happen until they get enough aircraft.It will happen and thats all you have to know.
and what ever else we have not been told yet about the conditions?
The company has saved a fortune with the b scale and not only does the company want more but the union wants to give it to them.
Flugbegleiter,if you thought the lhr base was a good deal then I guess you don't mind these b scale conditions.So working on the a380 makes sense to you but for the rest of us that think the conditions on the lhr base stink it sure as heck does not.
How do you work that out?
The boat is sinking but it will take 5 years to go under.
Thats nearly as good as pegs line.
as I said this is not a fairy tale with a guaranteed happy ending.
Especially not with Dixon reading the story
I will be going to a meeting but you have to be serious and say that there will be bugger all existing crew apply for the a380.The only ones that will go for it will be the ones like the slurpers who will do anything the company tells them.
pegasus in his first posts told us that we would have acess to the a380 on our pay.
But who will want to work on it with
No roster
No vote at 17 hours
Increased hours up to 240 and don't tell us that bs about that won't happen until they get enough aircraft.It will happen and thats all you have to know.
and what ever else we have not been told yet about the conditions?
The company has saved a fortune with the b scale and not only does the company want more but the union wants to give it to them.
You're one of the ones who does not want to fly the A380 under these conditions, obviously. Good for you. Just like you would not have wanted to go to the London base.
This EBA brings us all together which can only make us stronger.
The boat is sinking but it will take 5 years to go under.
Thats nearly as good as pegs line.
Isnt it about time something actually worked out well for us?????
Especially not with Dixon reading the story
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Of course I don't like the idea of a b-scale pay. But it is the only option we have had for years now. And the b-scale group had to be MUCH cheaper than us. Look at Australian Airlines. They were cheaper than us, but still not cheap enough. They were flying OUR aeroplanes on OUR routes in OUR uniforms, but on their pay and conditions and they were STILL too expensive.
They way I see it, we have 2 choices. We can either agree to this EBA, keep or pay and conditions and finally see some growth in Aussie longhaul, including new destinations. OR, we can vote no and watch ourselves disappear. There will be NO future for us if we go that way.
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What on earth is going on here,first we have the faaa supporters club with numbers on their name and now we have Flugbegleiter and his s/h alter ego Flugbegleiter68.
Did you guys meet on the lhr base?Only joking Flugbegleiter.
Then we have someone who forgets to sign out and agrees with himself in praising the union.
pegasus,
NO pegasus,there are crew that are not happy with how much you have given away but will probably have to vote yes because you have left us with no choice.
Did you guys meet on the lhr base?Only joking Flugbegleiter.
Then we have someone who forgets to sign out and agrees with himself in praising the union.
pegasus,
The ONLY crew that are driving a no vote are the un informed and short haul crew.
Last edited by RedTBar; 5th Dec 2007 at 20:46.
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My 1st post
Well here I am weighing in to the controversy that seems to be surrounding EBA 8 with my first ever post on pprune. Everyone seems so noice! Thats whats special cabin crew.....we're so nice. For the record, I like this agreement. It delivered more in the way of positives than I was expecting and is very short on negatives. As someone put it, if we'd had to strike to achieve this would've been considered a great victory. What a relief it didn't come to that.